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My thoughts on God...


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#31    Zeta Reticulum

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:13 AM

Because this is not a puppet show.


#32    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:34 AM

View PostZeta Reticulum, on 24 May 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

Because this is not a puppet show.

If that is so, I view it as God isn't merciful and loving.

Thanks for the input, but I'm not accepting it, it doesn't satisfy my uncertainty.

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 10:36 AM.


#33    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:40 AM

God: Most loving, most merciful.

God:Burns people in Hell.

Burning people in Hell: Not merciful.

Why: God can do anything without limits, he could have prevented it.

Question: How is that mercy or love?

Question 2:How can I make it any more clear?!

Even if this is not "a puppet show", if people still go to Hell (the ultimate torture device made by God) and He could have prevented once-innocent people from going there, it is not mercy. If you are implying that God would allow such suffering when he could have prevented it with zero effort, that is cruelty.

If you insist it is, I'd rather be an atheist.

Maybe there is something wrong with me for not seeing that as mercy or love.

No honest human parent, unless sick in the head, would want that for their children, and God's love is infinitely greater than theirs.

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 10:44 AM.


#34    Amalthe

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:08 AM

I could explain it to you, but it will take some time for you to understand and accept the true nature of things.
Like Hell for example.
If you study the Bible, you will notice that there are two words translated as Hell in OT : Sheol and Gehenna.
First word actually represents grave, and there is the place where people go when they die, and it's like a dreamless sleep state.
Second word represents final resting place of condemned after the God Judgement, a burning pit. Those two are very different pleces, but because of ignorance, they are translated the same way, hell.

Truth is that you don't have in Bible references to eternal punishment, only references of eternal flame. If God is just, he will administer the punishment according to the crime, and He will not allow eternal suffering. So in essence, sinfull people will experience second death, deletion from existence. There will be no eternal suffering, (that is something Adversary invented to alienate people from God), just one final punishment.

It makes sense to treat good and bad child differently, because otherwise there would be no initiative for humans to do which is good.

Think about this and discuss it, and after that i can explain to you why people are not created perfect.


#35    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:15 AM

Thanks for your input.

In Islam, there is eternal suffering as punishment. In Christianity, I think you just die forever in Hell. The grave is also a place for torture in Islam.

Still,

God: Most loving, most merciful.

God: Sends people to Hell not necessarily forever, but to experience second death.

Death forever in Hell: Not merciful.

Why: God can do anything without limits, he could have prevented it (example, prevent someone from being sinful).

Question: How is that mercy or love?

Unless the Christian god isn't necessarily Most Loving and Most Merciful, then I apologize as I didn't know that, so please feel free to enlighten me.

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 11:16 AM.


#36    Amalthe

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:39 AM

Right, so we can agree that there is no eternal punishment in hell, which rules out sadistic God, ok?

Now i am not sure what are your beliefs regarding free will, so i will not touch that before you give me some input.

Therefore, lets expand on idea in last sentence about children:

It makes sense to treat good and bad child differently, because otherwise there would be no initiative for humans to do which is good.

In other words, if God sets that there is strict division between good and bad behaviour, would you agree that good person needs to be rewarded and bad person needs to be punished?

Think about people you know, maybe your family. You forgive to people which do wrong to you, because you believe they will see their mistake, and behave better in future. You might try to maybe slight punish them to get same result, but in essence as long as you have faith with person that he/she will become good, you will not give up on him/her.

Now assume that you have such child, which broke every promise he gave, wasted every chance you offered, and has become irreparable evil person: in a way that there's nothing you can do anymore to help him change his ways. There has to be limit in your forgiveness, because if you would not punish such person, then why would anyone want to behave like a good person?


#37    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:45 AM

I agree with you on some of your points.


View PostAmalthe, on 24 May 2013 - 11:39 AM, said:

Now assume that you have such child, which broke every promise he gave, wasted every chance you offered, and has become irreparable evil person: in a way that there's nothing you can do anymore to help him change his ways. There has to be limit in your forgiveness, because if you would not punish such person, then why would anyone want to behave like a good person?

That is true, however, only for us limited humans. I would imagine that God could change such person without punishment or suffering. Couldn't God make such person righteous in every way if He chose to?

Maybe said person would not learn or develop, but God could make it so, I thought God is not limited like us humans and could provide "outside the box" solutions.

Can't he make it such that a person who does such things behaves like a good person without any punishment? Doesn't God want that?

Here's another thing, isn't a second death still likened to throwing away rubbish when God could have easily changed the people who went through that, no matter how much they sinned? Doesn't God value their souls? Or does he think that human souls are so expendable?

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 11:50 AM.


#38    Amalthe

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 11:59 AM

View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 11:45 AM, said:


That is true, however, only for us limited humans. I would imagine that God could change such person without punishment or suffering. Couldn't God make such person righteous in every way if He chose to?

Maybe said person would not learn or develop, but God could make it so, I thought God is not limited like us humans and could provide "outside the box" solutions.

Can't he make it such that a person who does such things behaves like a good person without any punishment? Doesn't God want that?

That is basically the problem of free will. Again, i don't know your standpoint on free will, but i believe God has gifted creatures with free will. He could make robots who would not think for themselves, and "program" them to always be good, but contrary to that, He decided that creatures will think for themselves and choose for themselves.  Lets go again from the previous statement:

Assuming that God sets that there is strict division between good and bad behaviour, free will means that people can choose between good and bad behaviour.

Think about it like a fence on the field which divides two parts, one which is good behaviour and other side is evil behaviour. Now God never walks on evil side, but his creatures can walk. And give them free will and eternity to try, eventually some of them will walk on evil side.

So would you agree that if there is free will and existing difference between good & evil, it will surely make some creatures try out that new fad, to be evil?


#39    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:01 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 24 May 2013 - 11:59 AM, said:

So would you agree that if there is free will and existing difference between good & evil, it will surely make some creatures try out that new fad, to be evil?

Sure.

There's something else I want to add, but I'll hold my comments back until I've read your response in case it answers my question.

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 12:02 PM.


#40    Amalthe

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:19 PM

ok, feel free to interrupt me.

So then lets continue, and after a while, one creature (lets call him Firstborn) decides to cross that fence and try out this new land of doing evil things. Now at beginning, it doesn't feel evil, it feels strange, it is a new field of actions a creature can explore. The basic idea of evil field is that strong should govern the weaker, while basic idea of good field is that strong should serve the weaker. I would sum the principles of morality into that two statements.

So in a way, that Firstborn that crossed to evil field discovered that he is somehow more potent than God, because God can't go there. God has limited options of action only on good field, and Firstborn has unlimited options of action on both fields. Think of it as a chess game, where one player always stick to the rules, and other can make moves that break the rules. We could say that latter player will always win, because he is not limited by rules.

And Firstborn thinks that he should also be God, because he is most powerfull than all other creatures, being able to do unlimited actions. In a way, exploring evil is next step in evolution of creatures, an advancement of some sort.

Then Firstborn makes a plan to force God into submission: he accuses God to be a tyrant and usurper, and that He keeps creatures in line with the fence with to punishment and fear.


Now, God has two options: he could reprogramm the Firstborn by removing his free will and making him good. But that would make Firstborn words become truth. God would be considered tyrant if He forced His will upon Firstborn. So God has to pick other option, and that is to allow the evil to be demonstrated, hoping that through His Love and Goodness, it will be shown that he is not a tyrant.


This is the reason God cannot make "out-of-box" solutions to turn evil person to goodness.


#41    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM

I appreciate your input.

I'm not sure which school of thought you follow, but I was raised a Muslim, and I have to see certain things in the Muslim view.

For example, in Islam there is nothing God cannot do (because God is omnipotent, otherwise he is not God).

If you say that God cannot do something, I don't think I could accept that.

Also, if God gave us free will, and only one choice (between good and evil) is the right one, I don't think that is true free will. Because it is true that you can choose between either freely, but if you are going to Hell if you choose evil, that means there is only one true choice.

If God "cannot cross that fence", I suppose that would answer some questions, but is unthinkable for me because God is supposed to do anything.

Thinking inside the box is what we humans do, simply because we are limited, I always imagined that God can think beyond those limits and provide solutions that transcend all rules and limitations that we humans have.

And what becomes of Firstborn because God cannot do anything about him being on the Evil side of the fence? Does he experience the second death in Hell because of it?

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 12:31 PM.


#42    Amalthe

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:27 PM

View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

I appreciate your input.

I'm not sure which school of thought you follow, but I was raised a Muslim, and I have to see certain things in the Muslim view.

For example, in Islam there is nothing God cannot do (because God is omnipotent, otherwise he is not God).
If you say that God cannot do something, I don't think I could accept that.



Let me point out then that if it is truth that there is really nothing God cannot do, then God can't be exclusively mercifull and just. In that case He can also be merciless and unjust. I think it is better to say that nothing is impossible with God, and keep Him on good side of fence.
What would be the point of Kur'an as a true word of God, if God can also make Kur'an be false word? There has to be limit of Gods action, for instance, if God says something, He must fulfill that. Think about that for some time.



View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

Also, if God gave us free will, and only one choice (between good and evil) is the right one, I don't think that is true free will. Because it is true that you can choose between either freely, but if you are going to Hell if you choose evil, that means there is only one true choice.

In a way, you're right. Only one path leads to life, while other path leads to death. But consider it like this: evil people get more kick of life then good ones. So they trade that choice that will eventually kill them, for some extra enjoyment in life if you will. It's like a drug addict dilemma: if he gets high, he will live shorter, but drugs would make him feel so good. If he abstains from drugs, he will live longer, but will he be able to enjoy life as much? Maybe for him life without drugs is boring, so he makes a choice of his free will.

My point is, to make "right" choice between good and evil is matter of personal preference. We define what is right for us, according to our own goals.


View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 12:30 PM, said:

And what becomes of Firstborn because God cannot do anything about him being on the Evil side of the fence? Does he experience the second death in Hell because of it?

Sure God can do something about Firstborn: He can show where does walking on evil field bring creatures of creation. It brings them to pain , destruction and suffering. If you allow the weak to serve strong, the end situation is what we have now in world: crime, poverty, wars, sickness. Those are the fruits of disobedience.

So at the end, when Judgement is done, whole universe will know about those fruits. And earth will be eternally engulfed in flames, to remind creatures what happened here on Earth. Firstborn will receive his punishment, he will die forever, and never again will any creature consider rebellion against God, because they will know where does rebellion lead eventually.


#43    freetoroam

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:33 PM

All this confusion! thank god I am not religious.Posted Image

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#44    Mnemonix

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:33 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 24 May 2013 - 01:27 PM, said:

Let me point out then that if it is truth that there is really nothing God cannot do, then God can't be exclusively mercifull and just. In that case He can also be merciless and unjust. I think it is better to say that nothing is impossible with God, and keep Him on good side of fence.
What would be the point of Kur'an as a true word of God, if God can also make Kur'an be false word? There has to be limit of Gods action, for instance, if God says something, He must fulfill that. Think about that for some time.

I believe God can do anything. Let's say he wanted to make the Quran a false word, he could. But would he? No.

an he be unmerciful? Yes. Would he? No. Why? Because that is not an attribute of God.

Gad can do all things, but only does the things that make him God.

Heard that from a Sheikh.

Thanks for your views, but I cannot accept a God like that. It doesn't sound of true love and mercy. That's not the God I'm looking for.

And does not accepting Christianity put a person on the good or evil side of the fence?

A good person doesn't need to be a Christian to do good you know.

Will a non-Christian go to Hell even though he did nothing evil?

I'm sorry, using the reasoning God gave me, I have read through your words and I cannot accept a God like that.

All I can draw from that is that God isn't loving enough to prevent humans from going to Hell or isn't powerful enough to prevent it.

That brings me all the way back to square one.

Edited by Mnemonix, 24 May 2013 - 01:43 PM.


#45    Amalthe

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:09 PM

View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I believe God can do anything. Let's say he wanted to make the Quran a false word, he could. But would he? No.

an he be unmerciful? Yes. Would he? No. Why? Because that is not an attribute of God.

Gad can do all things, but only does the things that make him God.

Well, am I not saying the same thing? At the end, result is that God does only things that make Him God, you say because those are His attributes, and I say because He can't go against what He said about Him. In essence we are describing the same thing, and I don't really care which explanation is better, we agree on the observed behaviour of God.

View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:


Thanks for your views, but I cannot accept a God like that. It doesn't sound of true love and mercy. That's not the God I'm looking for.

If you can please explain what part of my view is different from your view.


View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

And does not accepting Christianity put a person on the good or evil side of the fence?

A good person doesn't need to be a Christian to do good you know.

Will a non-Christian go to Hell even though he did nothing evil?

Accepting Christianity in essence doesn't lead to salvation. Nor accepting any religion per se. What leads to salvation is the state of one's heart about the faith in goodness and humility. A person who has put in his heart that being humble and good is right thing to do, he actually proves that it was God who put this things in his heart, and therefore does Gods will, nevermind what is he called, a hindu, christian , muslim, atheist.
Also, a person who calls himslef christian, and feels that being christian, gives him a right over other people of different religion, doesn't have humble and good heart, and hence will be condemned by God. For God doesn't judge by our words but by hearts.

Problem with religion is that it puts a lot of requirements on people, and when people can't fulfill those requirements, they feel separated from God. But religious requirements are not worth anything, what is in a heart is worth everything. This is what christianity teaches, unlike other religions: that you don't have to work for your salvation, God did all the work, you have just to accept it. And by accepting it, your heart is free again to be humble and good.

So at the end, there are righteous people in all religions, and there are a lot of christians that will experience second death, no religion has exclusivity in saving.


View PostMnemonix, on 24 May 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

I'm sorry, using the reasoning God gave me, I have read through your words and I cannot accept a God like that.

All I can draw from that is that God isn't loving enough to prevent humans from going to Hell or isn't powerful enough to prevent it.

That brings me all the way back to square one.
It is good you use your reasoning, because God wants to be reasoned with. He wants to be understood and loved because of that.
But is still don't understand what is difference between my standpoint and your standpoint.





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