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Who prays for Satan?


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#136    Amalthe

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 07:55 AM

View PostLava_Lady, on 29 May 2013 - 09:58 AM, said:

What are the principles of Satan you are talking about?  Which school of thought are they from?

Basically you can divide all belief systems into two groups: One group that admit existence of universal law, or truth, or division between good and evil, AND other group that believes there is no universal rule or law, but that each individual or group is responsible for their own rules. So for instance,such teaching would be that the morals of humans society is something humans made in order to coexist easily, like a social contract, but true humans are free to do what they want. Although there is variations on the subjects, other group believes rules can and do change, or evolve.

In essence, second group of beliefs ends up in situation where stronger individuals dominate the weaker, becuase they can enforce their "law" to others, but such system are often disguised as "seeking freedom, enlightement, exploration", same words Satan used when he turned one third of celestial population to his cause.


#137    Amalthe

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:14 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 29 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Not in the slightest bit, Luciferianism is not Hedonism nor is it Satanism. I'm afraid you haven't much more of a clue than most people I have spoken with over the years in regards to any of the Left Hand Paths.
Sure, you could invent another "-ism" to describe your specific set of beliefs, and i'm positive they include important words like "personal freedom of action", "seeking of enlightenment", "mental and social progression", "independence" or whatever, but at the end in important sets of belief your "-ism" ain't different from "-isms" you mentioned.

View PostEtu Malku, on 29 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

An intelligent Satanist would say "Wisdom through Adversity"
An intelligent Christian would say "Power through people"

View PostEtu Malku, on 29 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

Would you define "Holy Spirit"? I am a fan of logic and rationality/reasoning, which is one of the reasons I am not receptive towards any of the Abrahamic faiths.
Sure, because your God made sure Abrahamic religions (not faiths) will be perverted and end up illogical, irrational, doing exactly what they fought against. Is it really not strange for everyone how come so many prophets that delivered God message had met resistance from the very government that was supposedly founded on God message?

Truth is that Gods message is very simple, logical nad rational, but you have to put some effort to understand the truth. God wants to be accepted not out of fear but out of love.


View PostEtu Malku, on 29 May 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

I did? Nah, I outlined the original form of Prayer that was used by early Judaic, Christian, Gnostic, and most Pagan faiths.
Yeah, whatever dude, call it as you wish. Truth is that such "prayer" channels spirits. In order to allow someone to enter your mind, you first have to empty it, right?


#138    Etu Malku

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:23 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 03 June 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

Sure, because your God made sure Abrahamic religions (not faiths) will be perverted and end up illogical, irrational, doing exactly what they fought against. Is it really not strange for everyone how come so many prophets that delivered God message had met resistance from the very government that was supposedly founded on God message?
First let me reiterate that I have no god other than my higher self, and I know that I didn't do any of what you claim.
Christians invented the idea of a scapegoat and use it very effectively. Blaming their own confused, hypocritical, and hate mongering texts on something that 'they' (Christians) invented . . . the Devil! How pathetic, this is the exact definition of circular logic, design an imperfect belief system, borrowed from other religions, invent a bad-guy to blame for all the errors found in said belief system.

I like the Church's explanation for not listing dinosaurs in the Christian bible . . . that Satan planted those fossils before mankind was created in order to confuse and belittle the Word of god. LMFAO!!!

Matter of fact this is also how the Abrahamic god works . . . 1. create Man  2. create sin  3. have Man sin  4. send only Son down to die for created sin . . . the work of a serial killer?

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#139    danielost

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:04 PM

The jsrealites used an actual goat as a scapegoat.  My family used me.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#140    Lava_Lady

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 08:34 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 03 June 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Basically you can divide all belief systems into two groups: One group that admit existence of universal law, or truth, or division between good and evil, AND other group that believes there is no universal rule or law, but that each individual or group is responsible for their own rules. So for instance,such teaching would be that the morals of humans society is something humans made in order to coexist easily, like a social contract, but true humans are free to do what they want. Although there is variations on the subjects, other group believes rules can and do change, or evolve.

Ok, let me see if I understand:

so basically, Group one agrees on a universal truth
the truth is that there is a division between good and evil

the second group there is no such truth
Group 2  believes  that each individual is responsible for deciding their own rules but choose a "social contract" to coexist easier.

Is that correct?

Quote

In essence, second group of beliefs ends up in situation where stronger individuals dominate the weaker, becuase they can enforce their "law" to others, but such system are often disguised as "seeking freedom, enlightement, exploration", same words Satan used when he turned one third of celestial population to his cause.

How would Group one enforce their laws?  What are their laws anyway?  In order to say there is a universal division between good and evil, it has to be defined, who defines it?  This would seem to be the more difficult situation since there are degrees to good and evil.

The consequences of a "good" act can result in "evil" and vice versa.


Consider a murder committed by an "evil" person, a heinous act for sure,  this "evil" act results in lots of pain and anguish for the family and friends and anyone touched my the act.  Of course.


This evil forces the family members, previously on 'not speaking' terms due to some other incident to come together and reunite as family again.  Albeit in pain and suffering but close again.


It doesn't change the evil act but if this were an agreement on a spiritual level, between victim and perpetrator, where would Satan fit into this?

Would Satan be mediator between "God" and mortal in cases of extreme sacrifice?  Would the victim be a Christ figure for allowing his/her life to be sacrificed for the good of others?

I ask because there never is just black and white for me, there are millions of shades in between and I want to learn more.

Edited by Lava_Lady, 03 June 2013 - 08:37 PM.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#141    Amalthe

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 08:25 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 03 June 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

First let me reiterate that I have no god other than my higher self, and I know that I didn't do any of what you claim.

I don't recall I claimed you actually did anything :D What I claim is that I understand the basis of what you believe in, and it is same old story, that's all.

View PostEtu Malku, on 03 June 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

Christians invented the idea of a scapegoat and use it very effectively. Blaming their own confused, hypocritical, and hate mongering texts on something that 'they' (Christians) invented . . . the Devil! How pathetic, this is the exact definition of circular logic, design an imperfect belief system, borrowed from other religions, invent a bad-guy to blame for all the errors found in said belief system.
I like the Church's explanation for not listing dinosaurs in the Christian bible . . . that Satan planted those fossils before mankind was created in order to confuse and belittle the Word of god. LMFAO!!!

Yep, the Church does exactly what it was invented to do: confuse and make hypocritical statements, in order to separate humans from God and truth. You really think God invented religion? No, it is invention od Satan to keep the humans in line. Don't you ever question how come that human society deliberately destroyed every single gathering of ancient informations, like work of Berossus, Library of Alexandria, Pergamus, Baghdad? Don't you think it is completely strange that humans had few chirurgically precise lobotomies of collective memory? That's why we have so little knowledge of past, that would show us that origin of human knowledge was not through gradual development, but it was revealed by higher beings, fallen angels, exact beings that you claim they don't exist.

Let me guess: you're gonna claim that knowledge was destroyed by fanatic religious people. And you will prove my point: fanatic religious people work for your god, not Christ.

Humans know so little truth, but knowledge can't save you anyway. Whatever are your misconceptions or correct assumptions about true faith, they really don't matter.
Only thing that matters are you a man of humility and mercy? Would you limit your own freedom for sake of weaker person?


#142    danielost

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:00 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 03 June 2013 - 04:23 PM, said:

First let me reiterate that I have no god other than my higher self, and I know that I didn't do any of what you claim.
Christians invented the idea of a scapegoat and use it very effectively. Blaming their own confused, hypocritical, and hate mongering texts on something that 'they' (Christians) invented . . . the Devil! How pathetic, this is the exact definition of circular logic, design an imperfect belief system, borrowed from other religions, invent a bad-guy to blame for all the errors found in said belief system.

I like the Church's explanation for not listing dinosaurs in the Christian bible . . . that Satan planted those fossils before mankind was created in order to confuse and belittle the Word of god. LMFAO!!!

Matter of fact this is also how the Abrahamic god works . . . 1. create Man  2. create sin  3. have Man sin  4. send only Son down to die for created sin . . . the work of a serial killer?

Sin is one of those things that god did not create.  Not sure lucifer gets credit for it ether.  Because the spirits of the living thingss on earth, except for man failed the first test. Lucifer failed the second test along with rest of the failen angels

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#143    Amalthe

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

View PostLava_Lady, on 03 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

Ok, let me see if I understand:

so basically, Group one agrees on a universal truth
the truth is that there is a division between good and evil

the second group there is no such truth
Group 2  believes  that each individual is responsible for deciding their own rules but choose a "social contract" to coexist easier.

Is that correct?

That is correct. Try to think and define your own viewpoint. Do you believe there is absolute moral law that defines which is good and which is bad? Such law will not be dependant on cultural development of society. For instance, stealing is bad no matter how the society feels about it. And if there is a law, then there must be a lawcreator, ultimate Judge. And that Judge made sure humans konw by heart the law, it is written in our consciousness.


View PostLava_Lady, on 03 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

How would Group one enforce their laws?  What are their laws anyway?  In order to say there is a universal division between good and evil, it has to be defined, who defines it?  This would seem to be the more difficult situation since there are degrees to good and evil.

There are many proliferations of the law, but i would say basis comes in two modes, positive and negative:

Positive law would be: Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
Negative law would be: Don't do unto others what you wouldn't like them do to you.

Enforcing the law gets a little trickier. If you have the Law, then you must have some sort of punishment for breakers of Law. Punishment is essential part of the Justice. Because of different degrees of evil, in its purest form, perfect Justice is proportional like "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth". Responsibility to enforce the law is ultimately in hands of the Judge, because He has instruments to understand not only the actions but the motives behind actions.

View PostLava_Lady, on 03 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

The consequences of a "good" act can result in "evil" and vice versa.
Consider a murder committed by an "evil" person, a heinous act for sure,  this "evil" act results in lots of pain and anguish for the family and friends and anyone touched my the act.  Of course.


This evil forces the family members, previously on 'not speaking' terms due to some other incident to come together and reunite as family again.  Albeit in pain and suffering but close again.


It is very hard to generalize, because some murders could be done to prevent greater evils. In most cases committed murder is still considered to be evil act, regardless of consequences.

In this particular case the murderer did evil action, but it is imperfections of human nature that binds members together only when bad thing happens.


View PostLava_Lady, on 03 June 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

It doesn't change the evil act but if this were an agreement on a spiritual level, between victim and perpetrator, where would Satan fit into this?
Would Satan be mediator between "God" and mortal in cases of extreme sacrifice?  Would the victim be a Christ figure for allowing his/her life to be sacrificed for the good of others?
I ask because there never is just black and white for me, there are millions of shades in between and I want to learn more.
When speaking of Satan and Christ roles, one shoud consider their characters.

Satan is intelligent and powerfull being, and has advantage over any other creature in terms of abilities. Because of that, he feels that he should govern other, lesser beings, and those beings should serve him as a pinnacle of all beings.

So in relation to your question, i don't see reason why would Satan mediate anything, because his desire is to use his powers for his own gain. Why would he stand up for rights of humans, when he alone thinks he has bigger right over humans?
Christ is also intelligent and powerfull, but he uses power to serve others, weaker then him.  He is indeed example of humility nad mercy. Ultimate service to others is indeed sacrifice of life. He has a motive to mediate between God and humans because he knows humans are too weak to stand for themselves against God justice.


So if we consider God justice to be perfect, why do we need mercy? Mercy has only one goal, to turn the evil doer from his evil ways.
Say you have 8 friends and one of those friends beats other one. And you, acting as a Judge, capture the beater but let him go hoping that your act of mercy will convince beater to repent. Yet he doesn't and beats another friend. Again you capture him and show him mercy in order to teach him to be good. Still he doesn't and beats almost all remaining friends one by one, each time you capturing him and forgiving him.
After beating final friend, if he finally understands his mistake and repents, and asks forgiveness for his actions, you will feel your mercy and sacrifice of your friends were worthy, because you gained a friend, he who was lost became found.
But at the end if he doesn't repent, after you did EVERYTHING possible to convince him to repent, you will administer sevenfold punishment on your beating friend, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth manner.


#144    danielost

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 09:36 AM

There is a chance that satan was kicked out.  God told moses that evil can't abide in the presence of god.  This was when moses asked to see him.  God also said if moses did see him he would die.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#145    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:44 AM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I came across an interesting quote just now and it made me think.

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? - Mark Twain

Thoughts? Should Satan be prayed for? Can he be saved?  Can he repent? If not, why not?

I'm not Christian nor do I necessarily believe in Satan, just wonder what different viewpoints would be. Open to Christians and non-Christians, of course, I just found it an intriguing food for thought.

I too am non Christian and I hold no beliefs in satan.. But lets pretend I do, I therefore would ask - If God threw satan out of heaven and never to return, then all the praying for satan would not work, isn't gods mind already set on that issue?  Unless God starts changing his mind? It is said God never does such a thing... So, why bother?

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 05 June 2013 - 10:45 AM.

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#146    Kazahel

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 01:44 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 05 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I too am non Christian and I hold no beliefs in satan.. But lets pretend I do, I therefore would ask - If God threw satan out of heaven and never to return, then all the praying for satan would not work, isn't gods mind already set on that issue?  Unless God starts changing his mind? It is said God never does such a thing... So, why bother?

Just a thought but maybe because if you forgive, you are forgiven.

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Anyway I haven't really read much of the bible but I think some of it might be set up as like a test. So if the bible says hate Satan or whatever, then to me its a test on if you will follow the words directly(blindly)or be understanding that you don't really know enough to pass judgement.

So for me if say Satan walked up to me and said hello, I'd simply say hello back.

Reminds me of a dream/experience I had once where this being said he was also called the Devil. I replied people would only say that because they didn't know Him.


#147    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostKazahel, on 06 June 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

Just a thought but maybe because if you forgive, you are forgiven.

"And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive them, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."

Anyway I haven't really read much of the bible but I think some of it might be set up as like a test. So if the bible says hate Satan or whatever, then to me its a test on if you will follow the words directly(blindly)or be understanding that you don't really know enough to pass judgement.

So for me if say Satan walked up to me and said hello, I'd simply say hello back.

Reminds me of a dream/experience I had once where this being said he was also called the Devil. I replied people would only say that because they didn't know Him.

What I was primarily thinking  ( as if were a believer ) about was how God never changes his mind, once he makes a move to do something and says how things will be, he never goes back on it, it is set in stone... So, if he did this with satan, then there is no going back..  Also to add, if god did go back on his word, it would mean he made a mistake and they claim God never makes mistakes..So, this begs the question - Does God already know that satan will never change and want to be forgiven?   So, is this is why he has cast satan to spend eternal life away from heaven?  So any amount of praying will not do a thing?   I seriously do not know, but it does make you think...

There is also a part of the bible that states - All sins will be forgiven but one - Blasphemy of the holy spirit.. Apparently that is one sin the bible says will never be forgiven.. It really doesn't make sense to me.

If god is all knowing and he knows what we will do before we do it, and he knows how it will pan out, then why would he need to test us? He would already know the result beforehand..

I think that these sort of things are hard for humans to get their head around..  Anyway, I don't believe in satan and follow the bible, I was just trying to think like a believer ..In my own eyes, I feel ALL should mean ALL sins should be forgiven and no buts about it..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 June 2013 - 10:42 AM.

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#148    Arpee

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:23 AM

View PostAmalthe, on 03 June 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

Basically you can divide all belief systems into two groups: One group that admit existence of universal law, or truth, or division between good and evil, AND other group that believes there is no universal rule or law, but that each individual or group is responsible for their own rules. So for instance,such teaching would be that the morals of humans society is something humans made in order to coexist easily, like a social contract, but true humans are free to do what they want. Although there is variations on the subjects, other group believes rules can and do change, or evolve.

I mostly agree with you, but 'good' and 'evil' are emotionally charged words and do not exist.

Yes, a universal truth exist , but to not follow it is 'ignorant' and to follow it is 'wise'. I wouldn't call it 'good' or 'evil'.

Those who are wise and understand the universal truth of unity are caring,  generous.
Those who are ignorant to the universal truth of unity are uncaring, and stingy (not helpful or giving to others).

View PostAmalthe, on 03 June 2013 - 07:55 AM, said:

In essence, second group of beliefs ends up in situation where stronger individuals dominate the weaker, becuase they can enforce their "law" to others, but such system are often disguised as "seeking freedom, enlightement, exploration", same words Satan used when he turned one third of celestial population to his cause.

These seem to be the two groups:

Unity (Togetherness, Compassion, Sharing, Caring) vs Power (Dominance, Control, Uncaring, Greedy)


The group of Unity will call the Power group ignorant and say that they are controling and selfish.

The group of Power will call the Unity group ignorant and say that they are controlled and not free.

"seeking freedom" is another way of saying "doing what I want". "Doing what I want" is another of saying "me, me, me - I don't care about what you want". This eventually leads to greediness and then control.

"seeking harmony" (unity group - universal truth) is another way of saying "we should all conform and agree with each other otherwise you are ignorant or evil". This leads to group-thought instead of individual thinking leading to more creativity and ideas and this also leads to being controlled by peer pressure and the group.


Both "groups" have their advantages and disadvantages.

Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the ungrateful and to the evil. - Luke 6:35

#149    danielost

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 06 June 2013 - 10:38 AM, said:



What I was primarily thinking  ( as if were a believer ) about was how God never changes his mind, once he makes a move to do something and says how things will be, he never goes back on it, it is set in stone... So, if he did this with satan, then there is no going back..  Also to add, if god did go back on his word, it would mean he made a mistake and they claim God never makes mistakes..So, this begs the question - Does God already know that satan will never change and want to be forgiven?   So, is this is why he has cast satan to spend eternal life away from heaven?  So any amount of praying will not do a thing?   I seriously do not know, but it does make you think...

There is also a part of the bible that states - All sins will be forgiven but one - Blasphemy of the holy spirit.. Apparently that is one sin the bible says will never be forgiven.. It really doesn't make sense to me.

If god is all knowing and he knows what we will do before we do it, and he knows how it will pan out, then why would he need to test us? He would already know the result beforehand..

I think that these sort of things are hard for humans to get their head around..  Anyway, I don't believe in satan and follow the bible, I was just trying to think like a believer ..In my own eyes, I feel ALL should mean ALL sins should be forgiven and no buts about it..


God told David three times to kill saul, but david said no.  In the end god tells david he was more ritious then he was.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you. http://fremerica.freeforums.net/

#150    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:14 PM

View Postdanielost, on 06 June 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

God told David three times to kill saul, but david said no.  In the end god tells david he was more ritious then he was.

Which there was no need for God to do so, for God already knew what David would have done  before David. God being ALL knowing, he knows all  past present and future ..  But you are reading the story told by a man not God...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 06 June 2013 - 11:15 PM.

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