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Who prays for Satan?


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#151    Lava_Lady

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:08 AM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 05 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

I too am non Christian and I hold no beliefs in satan.. But lets pretend I do, I therefore would ask - If God threw satan out of heaven and never to return, then all the praying for satan would not work, isn't gods mind already set on that issue?  Unless God starts changing his mind? It is said God never does such a thing... So, why bother?

off the subject, it's good to see you!  :)

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#152    Lava_Lady

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:09 AM

View PostAmalthe, on 05 June 2013 - 09:11 AM, said:

That is correct. Try to think and define your own viewpoint. Do you believe there is absolute moral law that defines which is good and which is bad? Such law will not be dependant on cultural development of society. For instance, stealing is bad no matter how the society feels about it. And if there is a law, then there must be a lawcreator, ultimate Judge. And that Judge made sure humans konw by heart the law, it is written in our consciousness.




There are many proliferations of the law, but i would say basis comes in two modes, positive and negative:

Positive law would be: Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
Negative law would be: Don't do unto others what you wouldn't like them do to you.

Enforcing the law gets a little trickier. If you have the Law, then you must have some sort of punishment for breakers of Law. Punishment is essential part of the Justice. Because of different degrees of evil, in its purest form, perfect Justice is proportional like "Eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth". Responsibility to enforce the law is ultimately in hands of the Judge, because He has instruments to understand not only the actions but the motives behind actions.

[indent=1]

It is very hard to generalize, because some murders could be done to prevent greater evils. In most cases committed murder is still considered to be evil act, regardless of consequences.

In this particular case the murderer did evil action, but it is imperfections of human nature that binds members together only when bad thing happens.



When speaking of Satan and Christ roles, one shoud consider their characters.

Satan is intelligent and powerfull being, and has advantage over any other creature in terms of abilities. Because of that, he feels that he should govern other, lesser beings, and those beings should serve him as a pinnacle of all beings.

So in relation to your question, i don't see reason why would Satan mediate anything, because his desire is to use his powers for his own gain. Why would he stand up for rights of humans, when he alone thinks he has bigger right over humans?
Christ is also intelligent and powerfull, but he uses power to serve others, weaker then him.  He is indeed example of humility nad mercy. Ultimate service to others is indeed sacrifice of life. He has a motive to mediate between God and humans because he knows humans are too weak to stand for themselves against God justice.


So if we consider God justice to be perfect, why do we need mercy? Mercy has only one goal, to turn the evil doer from his evil ways.
Say you have 8 friends and one of those friends beats other one. And you, acting as a Judge, capture the beater but let him go hoping that your act of mercy will convince beater to repent. Yet he doesn't and beats another friend. Again you capture him and show him mercy in order to teach him to be good. Still he doesn't and beats almost all remaining friends one by one, each time you capturing him and forgiving him.
After beating final friend, if he finally understands his mistake and repents, and asks forgiveness for his actions, you will feel your mercy and sacrifice of your friends were worthy, because you gained a friend, he who was lost became found.
But at the end if he doesn't repent, after you did EVERYTHING possible to convince him to repent, you will administer sevenfold punishment on your beating friend, eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth manner.

hmm... interesting.  Thanks for sharing your information.

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time, and still retain the ability to function."  - F. Scott Fitzgerald


#153    Amalthe

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:56 AM

View PostArpee, on 06 June 2013 - 11:23 AM, said:

I mostly agree with you, but 'good' and 'evil' are emotionally charged words and do not exist.

Yes, a universal truth exist , but to not follow it is 'ignorant' and to follow it is 'wise'. I wouldn't call it 'good' or 'evil'.

Those who are wise and understand the universal truth of unity are caring,  generous.
Those who are ignorant to the universal truth of unity are uncaring, and stingy (not helpful or giving to others).



These seem to be the two groups:

Unity (Togetherness, Compassion, Sharing, Caring) vs Power (Dominance, Control, Uncaring, Greedy)


The group of Unity will call the Power group ignorant and say that they are controling and selfish.

The group of Power will call the Unity group ignorant and say that they are controlled and not free.

"seeking freedom" is another way of saying "doing what I want". "Doing what I want" is another of saying "me, me, me - I don't care about what you want". This eventually leads to greediness and then control.

"seeking harmony" (unity group - universal truth) is another way of saying "we should all conform and agree with each other otherwise you are ignorant or evil". This leads to group-thought instead of individual thinking leading to more creativity and ideas and this also leads to being controlled by peer pressure and the group.


Both "groups" have their advantages and disadvantages.

I think you're making a logical mistake here. Knowing and understanding the truth doesn't make you immediately "good". It is a misconception to think that all one person/being needs is selfrealization, or attaining understanding of the universe, and that will make them good. It is quite possible that even after you see the whole picture, you still decide to be selfish. Especially if knowledge puts you in position of power, why would you want to let go of that power and be generous?

I would definitely agree with you that ignorance more often that not leads to concept of "evil"  and vice versa, but still it is not mandatory.


#154    Arpee

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 07:58 AM

View PostAmalthe, on 07 June 2013 - 07:56 AM, said:

I think you're making a logical mistake here. Knowing and understanding the truth doesn't make you immediately "good". It is a misconception to think that all one person/being needs is selfrealization, or attaining understanding of the universe, and that will make them good. It is quite possible that even after you see the whole picture, you still decide to be selfish. Especially if knowledge puts you in position of power, why would you want to let go of that power and be generous?


There is a universal truth - we are all connected and you can choose to walk in that truth or not.  Selfish people choose not to embrace that universal truth and instead live by their own rules. It is just another choice.

If  you have this wisdom it's impossible to be selfish because the very nature of this universal truth is that there is Unity of all things (compassion) and that hurting others is hurting yourself. The only way it can happen is if you erase your memory or somehow forget this understanding.

This is what selfish beings are wokring on doing. They stay away from understanding this because they want freedom from this universal "law".  They want individuality.


Once you know this truth, it is too late for selfishness. The only way selfishness can come back is if this universal truth is forgotten or erased from memory.

So this is what people on the selfish path do, they work on forgetting this by replacing all thoughts of unity and compassionate with thoughts of individuality and selfishness.

Edited by Arpee, 07 June 2013 - 08:14 AM.

Love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing in return; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the ungrateful and to the evil. - Luke 6:35

#155    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:14 AM

View PostLava_Lady, on 07 June 2013 - 05:08 AM, said:

off the subject, it's good to see you!  :)

And you

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#156    danielost

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:57 PM

So the universal law is love.

So since god is pure love, lucifer who became hate, couldn't stay in the presince of god.

Edited by danielost, 07 June 2013 - 06:02 PM.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#157    Etu Malku

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 06:59 PM

View Postdanielost, on 07 June 2013 - 05:57 PM, said:

So the universal law is love.

So since god is pure love, lucifer who became hate, couldn't stay in the presince of god.
How so? Love is a survival mechanism found in humans, it enables two people to propagate the species. Agape is an emotion which we empower. How does Lucifer become hate?

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#158    danielost

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:14 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 07 June 2013 - 06:59 PM, said:

How so? Love is a survival mechanism found in humans, it enables two people to propagate the species. Agape is an emotion which we empower. How does Lucifer become hate?

No, your talking being attracted to another person.  True , love is an emotion that glues a family together.  Wife, husband, kids.  Lucifer became hate when he turned his back on god.

Christians and I think jews claim god is love.  Ie made up of love.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#159    Etu Malku

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:41 AM

View Postdanielost, on 07 June 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

No, your talking being attracted to another person.  True , love is an emotion that glues a family together.  Wife, husband, kids.  Lucifer became hate when he turned his back on god.

Christians and I think jews claim god is love.  Ie made up of love.
Christians and Jews make a lot of claims . . . none of which they can back up with any evidence. The Abrahamic god has a funny way of showing his 'love' then.

Edited by Etu Malku, 08 June 2013 - 12:41 AM.

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#160    SpiritWriter

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 01:46 AM

Satan is the name we give the monster of our sinfulness. We can only change and pray for ourselves. Sure pray for Satan...

As a matter of fact

Satan, in the name of Jesus you are hearby released from the pits of hell to go forth throughout the land also freeing thise you have dominion over.. be touchtouched and be healed

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#161    danielost

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 03:08 AM

View PostEtu Malku, on 08 June 2013 - 12:41 AM, said:

Christians and Jews make a lot of claims . . . none of which they can back up with any evidence. The Abrahamic god has a funny way of showing his 'love' then.

And, what beliefes of yours can you back up with real evidence.  Don't say abiogenesis.  Because there is no real evidence, just guesses.

I saw god at work this week in oklahoma.  How many kids did they pull out of ruble of the school that was destroyed there.  Ten I think including two they had to dig out.  Then there were teachers who shielded their students.

Edited by danielost, 08 June 2013 - 03:12 AM.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#162    Ever Learning

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 12:45 PM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 21 May 2013 - 04:28 PM, said:

I came across an interesting quote just now and it made me think.

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? - Mark Twain

Thoughts? Should Satan be prayed for? Can he be saved?  Can he repent? If not, why not?

I'm not Christian nor do I necessarily believe in Satan, just wonder what different viewpoints would be. Open to Christians and non-Christians, of course, I just found it an intriguing food for thought.
I feel sorrow for satan even though I shouldn't as a Christian, I don't wish pain on any of gods creations no matter how bad they are. I don't think im right for thinking this tho, im a limited being, who can only comprehend so much.

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#163    danielost

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:11 PM

If, we go down the road and say satan isn't worth a prayer or two.  Who else do we add to that list hitler, bush, obama, or your abusive parent/s, or a twelve year old girl who is dieing due to  lack of a lung transplant.

Edited by danielost, 08 June 2013 - 06:13 PM.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#164    danielost

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Posted 08 June 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostMnemonix, on 21 May 2013 - 05:10 PM, said:



Including Satan? Or is he excluded?

In Islam, Satan is a Jinn, who was too arrogant to bow down before Adam when Allah commanded him to do so. So Allah will punish him by sending him to hell in the end, but not before allowing him to deceive humans and other Jinn until Judgment Day.

Now that I think about it, if Satan knows he's going to Hell, why doesn't he just repent?

His current goal is to deceive as many souls to join him in Hell.

Instead he should just say sorry to God and get forgiven.

I don't know, doesn't make sense.

It seems he commited an unforgivable sin

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#165    Etu Malku

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Posted 09 June 2013 - 12:08 AM

View Postdanielost, on 08 June 2013 - 03:08 AM, said:

And, what beliefes of yours can you back up with real evidence.  Don't say abiogenesis.  Because there is no real evidence, just guesses.
Isn't that why it's called "Belief" . . . if any of us had evidence then it would be called "Truth"

My beliefs that can be evidenced are in psychology and philosophy . . . do you even know what my beliefs are?

Quote

I saw god at work this week in oklahoma.  How many kids did they pull out of ruble of the school that was destroyed there.  Ten I think including two they had to dig out.  Then there were teachers who shielded their students.
Sure you did . . . what was he wearing? :whistle:

Edited by Etu Malku, 09 June 2013 - 12:09 AM.

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