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why did satan get kicked out of heaven


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#16    Mnemonix

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:03 PM

Good god, how many reasons can Satan have to be kicked out of Heaven? :w00t:

I think it all comes down to what you believe or want to believe.

I'll go for the Islamic view, since I was raised Muslim.

What happened or how it happened doesn't really concern me, so this thread isn't really for me.


#17    Etu Malku

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:15 PM

As God's first creation, the angel Lucifer would not bow down to another creation lesser than he, would only serve God. This was the premise for his damnation from Heaven. Lucifer would then become Satan, the ruler of the physical world.

And yet, Lucifer as the Serpent was not finished. In the Garden he exlains to Eve that if they eat of the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil, which God forbid, then they would have the ability to be as gods themselves.

Didn't sit too well with his Almighty I guess? :passifier:

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#18    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 09:28 PM

Depends on who you ask.
Some (as Etu malku said) say it's because he wouldn't bow before god's latest creation (man), some say it's because he decided that he could run things better then the Boss others even say that he's just doing the job God gave him because man was too stupid to be able to understand that God can be all things at all times - so thus good and evil.


#19    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:26 PM

Apparently God doesn't like to be questioned and Satan would rather be King in Hell as opposed to servant in Heaven. Or so the story goes :w00t:

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 23 May 2013 - 10:33 PM.

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#20    moonshadow60

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:52 PM

According to the Bible, the Dragon was cast out of heaven because of rebellion, pride, and the selfish desire to be like or even surpass the Lord.  

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9)

I am no expert, but I can read.




PS.  Ayuh; edited again.

Edited by moonshadow60, 23 May 2013 - 10:59 PM.


#21    the eternal me

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 10:54 PM

hmm.....
i have never seen any truth to this satan/lucifer fellow being all that valid.....

from what i have read and come to understand...

satan or the aspect of lucifer boils down to choices..

all things that can be considered acts of satan can be summed up as selfish choices...

the story of lucifer is embodying the thought pattern of "me first above all" ....

me me me me .......

when your in the thought pattern of me me me me ......

how can you see what it is that is before you? ....

good or bad? ....

how can you think through a series of where this choice will go? ....

how can your intuition cut through the muddled thoughts of "what’s in it for me?" ....

to be selfish is to cut yourself off from everything.....
hence..... cast out of heaven....

heaven being a place of joy and happiness....

to share in life and what makes you happy....
and smiling and bringing a smile to the faces of others....
how is this not a place of heaven? ...
nirvana....

whatever you chose to call it.....

satan and lucifer is not a being....
its a way of thinking....
a way of being.....

nothing more.....

but thats just my $0.02


#22    moonshadow60

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:01 PM

Eternal Me; that's an interesting point of view.


#23    the eternal me

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:07 PM

i have never seen anything that was considered "evil" that could not be viewed as selfish....

there are all kinds of examples from history...
when you look at the psychology of people that were considered evil....
you see selfish choices...

children in pain and acting out...

for whatever reasons they may have had...

still, the hurt inner child.... acting out....


#24    third_eye

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:11 PM

Posted Image


give me a moment .... I have to think this over ....



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#25    shrooma

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:23 PM

I reckon god & ol' nick were showering off after a hard day's smiting, god had a quick peek, got jealous, and hoofed satan out!
the fact that god got someone else to do the nasty when he knocked mary up just proves god's got a maggot d**k!
probably why he's so angry all the time.....
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#26    Arpee

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Posted 23 May 2013 - 11:26 PM

View Postdanielost, on 23 May 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

This has been mentioned in another thread.  But, no one wants to derail that thread to discuss it.

I was taught, basically that satan and god got into an arguement over how to save mankind.  Satan wanted to force us back to god.  God wanted us to have freewill here as we did in heaven.

Assuming that the things said here are true:

I doubt "Satan" and "God" wuld need to be in an argument of how to "save mankind". If God is perfect and created mankind then they are created perfectly. Remember, the "fall of man" only happened AFTER eating the futre (according to The Bible).

It's interesting that you mention that "Satan" wanted to force, because without Satan there cannot be free-will, think about it.

If God creates everything perfectly, then everything will do things according to their perfect creation - the only way for that not to happen is to offer opposition ("Ha Satan") to make another choice that doesn't seem to be so perfect with it's own creation...

but Even if Satan IS giving free-will by offering another choice... who made Satan?

God!

So , "Satan" is only giving an illusion of imperfection when all things were perfect all along.

Edited by Arpee, 23 May 2013 - 11:27 PM.

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#27    danielost

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 12:45 AM

View PostJ. K., on 23 May 2013 - 08:59 PM, said:

This is one explanation from Isaiah 14.  He sought to be equal with God.  "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations! For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

This is basically the rest that I was taught.  For those who don't know I am mormon.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#28    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 01:44 AM

Problem is I'd have to believe in the Bible to believe Satan was kicked out of Heaven :unsure2: I don't dismiss the possibility of a Devil character, perse, he does seem to feature in a lot of religions and there's no good without evil but I find it difficult to believe angels would revolt against God, since he/she is supposed to be all powerful. Don't quite understand what their logic would be, knowing they couldn't possibly win.

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 24 May 2013 - 01:44 AM.

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#29    AliveInDeath7

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:08 AM

Satan argued against God.. He accused God of not knowing what he created.. Of course, being God, he would not want to be argued with..


#30    Etu Malku

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:18 AM

View PostHeaven Is A Halfpipe, on 23 May 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Apparently God doesn't like to be questioned and Satan would rather be King in Hell as opposed to servant in Heaven. Or so the story goes :w00t:
I think it's . . . I'd rather rule in Hell that serve in Heaven :devil:


View Postmoonshadow60, on 23 May 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

According to the Bible, the Dragon was cast out of heaven because of rebellion, pride, and the selfish desire to be like or even surpass the Lord.  

“And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.” (Revelation 12:7-9)

I am no expert, but I can read.
Then realize you are reading a book that was written almost 100 years after Christ's death, was added to the Christian bible in 419 A.D., was called "the insanest of all books by Nineteenth-century agnostic Robert G. Ingersoll, was omitted from the "Jefferson" bible who stated it was "merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams."


View Postthe eternal me, on 23 May 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

hmm.....
i have never seen any truth to this satan/lucifer fellow being all that valid.....
And I have never seen any truth to this god fellow being valid . . . you're point?

Quote

satan or the aspect of lucifer boils down to choices..
all things that can be considered acts of satan can be summed up as selfish choices...
One might consider the act of God forcing Lucifer to bow down to a lesser creation as an act of selfishness and megolomania!

Quote

the story of lucifer is embodying the thought pattern of "me first above all" ....
me me me me .......
when your in the thought pattern of me me me me ......
how can you see what it is that is before you? ....
Hardly, besides the fact that Lucifer is never mentioned in the Christian bible, the story of Lucifer is one of Compassion for Life and Creation, the Light born in the Womb of Darkness . . . defiance of corrupt authority and the Current of Spiritual Evolution.


Quote

satan and lucifer is not a being....
its a way of thinking....
a way of being.....

nothing more.....

but thats just my $0.02
The same can be said of god and the Christian religion, or any religion for that matter. I don't see any evidence for a god any more than I see one for Satan or Lucifer.

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