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why did satan get kicked out of heaven


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#31    Etu Malku

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:22 AM

Satan is a personification of the Judaic word ha-satan meaning Adversary. Ha satan did not become Satan until much later when Jewish sects / tribes particularly the Essenes began referring to anyone who was not an Essene as ha satan (adversary).

The Adversary is a trans-cultural archetype which existed long before Christianity began in the form of Set, Samael, Ahriman, Loki, Pan and the feminine aspect being Lilith, to name but a few. Psychologically speaking, the Adversary is our Shadow Self, that which opposes and challenges you, when confronted by it, one either becomes consumed by it or one becomes stronger because of it.

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#32    BiffSplitkins

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:25 AM

My Pastor told me it had something to do with him not 'Contributing to the Church' as he should have. :whistle:

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#33    mysticwerewolf

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:32 AM

God and Lucifer made a bet,  God said I am perfect and as a perfect being I can make perfection  Lucifer said  "your not perfect and no you can't make perfection."
  So God made the heavens and the earth and said "It is perfect" and Lucifer asked "what is perfect about a piece of rock in a vacuum of emptiness.?" and god thought about this and then made the plants and the animals and then made man and saw that man was alone and made woman and gave them free will and forbid them from eating whatever it was they ate  and they ate it
then God looked down and saw that it was still not perfect as  Lucifer smiled and said  "that was your forth  mistake."
Forth?" God asks
"The second one was making man,  The third was making a woman for man and the forth was forbidding  something with free will from doing something you don't want them to do." Lucifer says
  "What was the first?" god asks
  "Making a bet with me."   Lucifer answers with a smile.
God got so mad he cast Lucifer out.


   granted I am an atheist  but I always liked this explanation

Edited by mysticwerewolf, 24 May 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#34    Sundew

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:54 AM

Here is an account in the Old Testament book of Ezekiel. The account first describes "the ruler of Tyre". Tyre was an ancient city and enemy of Israel and this ruler seems to be a human being whose sins are described in verses 1-10.

Then however the narrative shifts in verse 11 to "the king of Tyre". Here it is generally believed the topic switches from a human entity to Satan and it seems Satan's fall was from pride and violence. Later in the gospels Jesus also called him a murderer and a liar and the father of lies.

These traits would be incompatable with God's nature.

It is not exactly known when Satan was/or will be removed from heaven. In the book of Job chapter one Satan was still shown to have access to heaven, later Jesus made the statement that he saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Verses 18-19 in Ezekiel seem to chronicle the devIl's final judgment as well. But we live along a temporal time line whereas God does not, existing in past, present and future all at once.

Ezekiel 28

A Prophecy Against the King of Tyre

28 The word of the Lord came to me: 2 “Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘In the pride of your heart
    you say, “I am a god;
I sit on the throne of a god
    in the heart of the seas.”
But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
    though you think you are as wise as a god.i
3 Are you wiser than Daniel?
    Is no secret hidden from you?
4 By your wisdom and understanding
    you have gained wealth for yourself
and amassed gold and silver
    in your treasuries.
5 By your great skill in trading
    you have increased your wealth,
and because of your wealth
    your heart has grown proud.
6 “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

“‘Because you think you are wise,
    as wise as a god,
7 I am going to bring foreigners against you,
    the most ruthless of nations;
they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
    and pierce your shining splendor.
8 They will bring you down to the pit,
    and you will die a violent death
    in the heart of the seas.
9 Will you then say, “I am a god,”
    in the presence of those who kill you?
You will be but a mortal, not a god,
    in the hands of those who slay you.
10 You will die the death of the uncircumcised
    at the hands of foreigners.
I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’”

11 The word of the Lord came to me: 12 “Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:o

“‘You were the seal of perfection,
    full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
    the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
    carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
    topaz, onyx and jasper,
    lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.o
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
    on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
    for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
    you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
    from the day you were created
    till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
    you were filled with violence,
    and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
    and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
    from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
    on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
    because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
    I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
    you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
    and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
    in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
    are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
    and will be no more.’”



#35    Philangeli

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 07:46 AM

The 'story' I was given of why he fell from grace was that originally, he was a beautiful Archangel with free will. But, pride got the better of him and he fell from heaven, dragging a third of the angels with him. This happened before man was created.

Since man was created, God has allowed Satan to tempt man (for a certain period of time) in order to test his allegiance one way or the other - are we on the side of truth or do we side with the denial of truth (the great lie)?

Edited by Philangeli, 24 May 2013 - 07:49 AM.

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#36    third_eye

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 08:20 AM

So far .. after some thought ...


"Satan was kicked out because ...

mankind needed something to blame for things which would have saddled god with a bit of 'splaining to do ... "


Satan is the Head of the Department of Worldly Complaints ....



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somewhere in here but not quite sure which yet ... further critical and in depth distinctive discerning examination required ...

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#37    Etu Malku

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 02:19 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 24 May 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

The 'story' I was given of why he fell from grace was that originally, he was a beautiful Archangel with free will. But, pride got the better of him and he fell from heaven, dragging a third of the angels with him. This happened before man was created.

Since man was created, God has allowed Satan to tempt man (for a certain period of time) in order to test his allegiance one way or the other - are we on the side of truth or do we side with the denial of truth (the great lie)?

Quote

"Without pride man is in reality of little value. It is pride that stimulates us to all our great undertakings. Without pride, and the secret persuasion of extraordinary talents, what man would take up the pen with a view to produce an important work, whether of imagination and poetry, or of profound science, or of acute and subtle reasoning and intellectual anatomy? It is pride in this sense that makes the great general and the consummate legislator, that animates us to tasks the most laborious, and causes us to shrink from no difficulty, and to be confounded and overwhelmed with no obstacle that can be interposed in our path." - quote from William Godwin (The Lives of the Necromancers)


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#38    Copen

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 04:25 AM

View PostPhilangeli, on 24 May 2013 - 07:46 AM, said:

The 'story' I was given of why he fell from grace was that originally, he was a beautiful Archangel with free will. But, pride got the better of him and he fell from heaven, dragging a third of the angels with him. This happened before man was created.

Since man was created, God has allowed Satan to tempt man (for a certain period of time) in order to test his allegiance one way or the other - are we on the side of truth or do we side with the denial of truth (the great lie)?
Brother, You are headed in the right direction; but err in the chain of events.
God first gave Lucifer for a covering of the earth. When the Spirit of God moved across the deep waters and saw darkness, (Genesis 1) God knew that Lucifer had fallen and had become the author of confusion, and a murderer from the beginning. Sometime after the beginning and before the creation week Lucifer was discovered to be fallen. "By one man (Lucifer) sin ENTERED." It couldn't have been Adam. Eva, a woman, ate the fruit first. Romans 5:14 says Adam is a figure (foreshadow) of Jesus. He couldn't be a foreshadow of Jesus if he brought sin into the world.

What God knew about Lucifer did not bring about an immediate judgement. God's justice is the same He required of the Israelites. There had to be two witnesses to the crime with no contradictions. Therefore, God set up an elaborate sting operation. Lucifer had rebelled against God and wanted to take God's place; there were angels who also were in rebellion and would follow Lucifer.

God did not throw Lucifer out of heaven. In the book of Job, Satan was still in heaven. In Moses' day Satan still had access to heaven and was arguing with God to have Moses. The prophet talking to the king of Tyre and past the king of Tyre to Satan said, I will cast thee out of heaven. "I will cast thee out..." means it hadn't happened yet but would one day.

Satan was still in heaven until he saw Jesus about to be born. (Revelation 12) At that time he recruited his followers to leave their posts in various points of heaven with the intentions of killing the infant Jesus. Satan thought Jesus wanted to live on earth and claim earth. His goal was to kill Jesus. The devil's followers numbered one-third of the angels in heaven. As they swept out of heaven to kill the infant --- AT THAT POINT, that ole dragon and his angels were locked out of heaven and never allowed back. They had shown their true colors.  But the dragon didn't just roll over and play dead.

As Jesus hung on the cross, now that the devil could see that Jesus was going to die, the devil decided this was the perfect time for a coup. The devil did not realize it was the heavenly plan for Jesus to die to save His people from their sins. The devil was met with opposition in the Angel Michael and his army. There was war in heaven! That is why the earth was enveloped with darkness and the sun did not shine as Jesus hung on the cross. The devil lost the battle. He knows his time on earth is short. He cannot claim heaven; but he is busy trying to own earth. In doing so, he is like a ravenous lion seeking Christians he can destroy. Get them out of the way and the earth is all his.

Only Jesus is coming back. This time the battle will be for earth. Jesus will win!!!
God bless all God's children to worship in spirit and in truth.


#39    danielost

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:06 PM

Lucifer is the angel of light.  So I don't think it is dark, in the convential way, around him.  However being cut off from god is a sort of darkness.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#40    markprice

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:31 PM

View PostCopen, on 25 May 2013 - 04:25 AM, said:

God first gave Lucifer for a covering of the earth.

Lucifer is the atmosphere, water or clay?  Lucifer is a substance of some kind... he was an element and not an independent entity?  Lucifer is a state of mind over all the earth?

What gave you this idea? And why call that Lucifer unless you mean star light.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#41    markprice

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:40 PM

View PostSundew, on 24 May 2013 - 02:54 AM, said:



Then however the narrative shifts in verse 11 to "the king of Tyre". Here it is generally believed the topic switches from a human entity to Satan ...


The switch could be from human behavior to a soul that resembles Satan as if Satan is a term used to describe that kind of person.

"How can someone prove that a rainbow exists to a blind man?"

#42    Etu Malku

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:04 PM

Lucifer is a Greek/Roman god older than Christianity. He is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 C.E (Roman) Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 BCE

In Greek mythology, Hesperus, the Evening Star is the son of the dawn goddess Eos (Roman equivalent: Aurora) and brother of Eosphorus the Morning Star (Eosphoros "dawn-bearer"; also Phosphorus, Lucifer "light-bearer").

Lucifer is the Principle of Compassion for Life and Creation, the Light born in the Womb of Darkness . . . defiance of corrupt authority and the Current of Spiritual Evolution.

Lucifer is a Collective Name for Spiritual Freedom. Non-Theistic Luciferians, as myself, are not concerned about Abrahamic symbolism, we understand that archetypal images such as demons and angels or any forms of a god are merely symbols towards stirring the Psyche.

Metaphorically speaking, Lucifer is not an "Adversary" as the word Satan (ha satan) describes. Lucifer is the 'Bringer of Light' in other words Lux Lucis and is Truth and Divine Knowledge.

Lucifer is not mentioned by name anywhere in the Christian bible, attempts to correlate certain biblical verses with Him is less than convincing. The Gnostic texts removed from the Christian bible refer directly to Lucifer in a positive Light.


(from the Gospels of Nag Hammadi)
Testimonial of Truth: 3: 4-5
" . . . it reveals truth only when one reads it in reverse, recognizing that God is actually the villain, and the Serpent Lucifer, the holy one"

Reality of Rulers
"It is this God that commanded Adam not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, which could open his eyes to the Truth.
When Adam & Eve, enlightened by the feminine spiritual principle who appeared to her in the form of the Serpent Lucifer and deified them"


Edited by Etu Malku, 25 May 2013 - 05:06 PM.

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#43    Copen

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:21 PM

View Postmarkprice, on 25 May 2013 - 02:31 PM, said:

Lucifer is the atmosphere, water or clay?  Lucifer is a substance of some kind... he was an element and not an independent entity?  Lucifer is a state of mind over all the earth?

What gave you this idea? And why call that Lucifer unless you mean star light.
Eqekiel 28: 13-17 "Thou has been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy COVERING...Thou are the anointed cherub that COVERETH;...Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee...I will (future tense) cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee O COVERING CHERUB..."
God bless us all is my prayer.


#44    Mr Right Wing

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:52 PM

View Postdanielost, on 23 May 2013 - 08:08 PM, said:

This has been mentioned in another thread.  But, no one wants to derail that thread to discuss it.

I was taught, basically that satan and god got into an arguement over how to save mankind.  Satan wanted to force us back to god.  God wanted us to have freewill here as we did in heaven.

The Bible says that lucifer was cast out for his pride.


#45    nothinglizx2

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 04:07 AM

The answer isn't to hard to understand, just choose your will over God's.  Want, is a terrible and selfish thing from that which all the other sins will follow.
Angels must have free will aswell.  He must not have agreed with a choice God had made.  It's easy to disagree with God when so much is at stake.  For instance when God decides it's time for someone
you love to die and your not ready, it leaves a terrible sadness and bitterness in your soul, the anger can destroy you, so much so that you start taking other peoples lives to spite him.
Although the world is 4 billion years old, our universe is much older, other worlds have come and gone, life on those worlds have seen love and prosperity, death and destruction, those lives that died there
have gone to other plains of existance.  The lives that did not die there may have went to affect other lives on other worlds to enrich or destroy.  If you look at the swirl of a galaxy you will see both light and darkness
effecting it.  The light and darkness is a universal necessity for all creation, love is enriched by the overcoming of darkness.  Without knowing darkness then you cannot know how vital love is.
sinning was a necessary step in our evolution, to see what horrors it reaps, so that those who are saved through Jesus would know how vital the love of God was.  They would know what it's like to descend into darkness
and be lost then through Jesus ascend into light and be found, questioning God's will for the most part would be a non-issue.





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