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unifying science & mysticism.


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#16    GreenmansGod

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 09:17 PM

View PostR4z3rsPar4d0x, on 24 May 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

really what type of stuff works? Im really interested

Controlling the actions of others is what I am best at.  Spells to get someone to do something I want them to do.  I know the spell has worked when they come up to me and say "I don't know why I am doing this..." and it is something I have directed them to do with a spell.  I have gotten people to give me things back they stolen, leave town,   Getting  my brother to do things was the easiest.   It works best If I set up a link through an object like a stone.  I had to quit though, ethics.

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#17    Lilly

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:24 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 24 May 2013 - 09:17 PM, said:

  I had to quit though, ethics.

I have no such ethical constraints (came with advancing age). I'd like to be able to make some folks do my bidding.

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#18    redhen

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:33 PM

View Postshrooma, on 24 May 2013 - 06:56 PM, said:

but yet, when you hear vegetarians talk about plants, you'd think they were eating rocks for all the acknowlegement they give them, simply because they don't talk, or make puppy eyes at people,

Here we go again. When are you going to stop setting up straw men, just so you can deftly knock them down? No vegans I know eat plants because they don't talk, or make puppy eyes, please. They eat plants because they do not feel pain, they do not suffer.

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they thing eating plants is ok, because they don't seem to think that plants are living entities with a right to a continual existence,

I have a simple question for you. Do you brush your teeth? If you do, you are killing thousands of living organisms. How do you justify this behaviour? The Jain religion is all about non-violence (ahimsa), that's why I use their symbol as my avatar. There are many Jains who in fact do not brush their teeth because of the bacteria and microbes that perish. Personally, I think they go too far, because these organisms, like plants,  also do not feel pain or suffer.

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because they don't, they CAN'T understand a plant's mechanisms & processes, no-one can!

This is a logical fallacy, appeal to ignorance.  "the claim that whatever has not been proved false must be true, and vice versa."


#19    Royal

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:43 PM

View Postshrooma, on 24 May 2013 - 06:30 PM, said:

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I hope so pallidin!
one of the biggest objectives in science is to unite the known fundamental forces into one whole, complete model, and it would be interesting if they could unite science with the unexplained.
take morphic resonance for example. certain flowers mimic butterflies to encourage pollination, but how does a flower know what a butterfly LOOKS like? the world's biggest flower, the rafflesia, smells like rotting fish & meat to encourage pollination by flies, but how does a plant KNOW what rotting fish guts smell like, and that flies are attracted to them, when it lives in jungles, nowhere near fish, and can't see flies?
there's more to nature than we know, and a lot of it seemingly impossible!
  Hi shrooma, great topic. I don't know much about this kind of thing,but in the case of the flowers mimicing  butterflies,could it be that it's the other way around and that the butterflies evolved to resemble flowers for camouflage and pollination happens in this fashion?

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#20    third_eye

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Posted 24 May 2013 - 10:54 PM

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the most opportune moments in life and existence is as such solely because it is just as such ....



He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
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#21    GreenmansGod

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:34 AM

View PostLilly, on 24 May 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

I have no such ethical constraints (came with advancing age). I'd like to be able to make some folks do my bidding.

Take my word on that you don't, to much responsibility. Once they are doing your bidding you are responsible for what they do good or bad.

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#22    Lilly

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:50 AM

View PostDarkwind, on 25 May 2013 - 12:34 AM, said:

Take my word on that you don't, to much responsibility. Once they are doing your bidding you are responsible for what they do good or bad.

That's fine...I would only 'bid' they do good (for themselves and others). But, alas, I have no power (save that of my own actions). I certainly wouldn't mind becoming a witch or a Jedi though.

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#23    third_eye

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:57 AM

View PostLilly, on 25 May 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

That's fine...I would only 'bid' they do good (for themselves and others). But, alas, I have no power (save that of my own actions). I certainly wouldn't mind becoming a witch or a Jedi though.


a mod jedi ? is this the start of a new hope ?

Posted Image


there is a disturbance in the sith force .... they have a new MOD jedi .....

I shall face this MOD and crush her my Lord ....

nonsense ... you are no match for a MOD jedi Vader ... leave her to me ....





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#24    White Crane Feather

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:42 AM

I don't think science and spiritual are oposites. Quit the oposit. They Persue the same goal. There are of course those with fundamentalist philosophy's  that suffer from pretty strong cases of cognitive dissonance, but the majority of people understand that the truth is most likely somewhere in the middle. From religious  fundamentalists to materialistic fundamentalists the contention lies in absolute belief in ones methodology of understanding the world.

To the religious fundamentalist doctrin is the way truth should be understood to the materialist it's objective evidence ( as long as it dosn't refute materialism).

The problem of course is that doctrine can be wrong, and objective evidence is very ( but necessarily) narrowly defined, and the scientific method coupled with a purely materialist approach is horrendously flawed.

( do I need to give any examples for the religous ?) The primary problem with beliefs stemming from doctrin is that the religionists has truth in mind and seeks to proove that truth, while the scientist and the spiritual seeker are looking for the truth and sifting through the knowledge gained along the way.

In a way fundamental materialists have the same problem. Because the scientific method has it roots in materialistic philosophy, anything that science produces must be a product of a materialistic reality even if science reveals that it's actually not the case ( and it has). There also is a very recent development that personal experiences are to be completely thrown out of consideration. "plural of anecdote does not make true", and psychological testing has prooven that people can be and are wrong at times. Of course the fundamentalist takes this to the extremes and concludes that anything outside of the materialists assumption is somone that is mistaken or even if hundreds, thousands, or even millions of people share an experience that it must be a mistake, a misinterpretation, or ( just like the religionist) fit somehow into materialistic philosophy.  Plural of anecdote does not make true, but the more plural it is, the more likely it is to be true. If three reputable  people see a flying disk over the white house then I'd be skeptical, if a hundred did id be intruiged, if 10,000 did then one could be certain that the event happened. Proof of alians? No. But its pretty solid evidence that there was a flying disk over the white house. Also science has prooven somone MAY be wrong about a personal experience, but that does not mean that they always are.

Anither problem is the faith that materialists have is in the 'full proof' success of the scientific process.


The disturbing habit of fixing reality off of using known observations while at the same time observing that those very observation are severely limited.

The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. -Stephen Hawking

We know that the observable universe is estimated to be about 46 billion light years, yet we know that the size of the universe itself ( if curved) is closer to 14 trillion light years in diameter. If its flat, then it could go on forever. It's far larger than anyone ever dreamed. And yes it's probably full of galaxies. "there are more stars in the sky than there are grains of sand on the earth" ---Sagan ( I think) NO!!!!! Math and science teaches us that there are probably more stars in the sky than there are grains of sand in the galaxy!!!!

Yeah for science!!!! But wait. Not so fast. The very methodology that taught us this also tells us that there is a horizon at which we can no longer gain any possible information from and that this horizon is approaching us at an excelerating rate.  We know that evenchually the closest galaxy's to us ( minus the ones we happen to merge with),  will evenchually will be completely invisible to us. Dark matter, cosmic back ground radiation, and a plethora of other discoveries and scientific knowledge that even allowed us to figure this stuff out  will evenchually be completely invisible to us. It will be a lone galaxy in a void of darkness.

Of course the earth will be long gone by then, but if human beings evolved during that epoch we would have underestimated the size of the universe by at least 140,000 fold. Not to mention the 100s of other phenomenon we would not be aware of. We would not even know the existence of other galaxies. No big bang, No inflation theory, No understanding of the early universe. All of it completely inaccessible. In its place would be other theories that would be so rediculously wrong scientists would laugh at such ignorance. It's my belief that we should probably laugh at what we think is 'scientific' realities that we treasure now. Ultimately reality is probably, in my opinion, so rediculously large, complicated, and deep that even a tiny fraction of which cannot even fit into our heads. One thing is for sure, every 50 years or so someone thinks it's figured out, then boom something changes everything and we realize the puzzle is far larger. This is why I just nod my head and smile  at fundamentalists ( materialists or religionists) that are under the illusion that that their doctrine or methodologies can even scratch the surface of what is really happening. The great mystery is just that, a mystery with plenty of room for gods, multi dimensions, spirits, undetectable energies and who knows what else. I am required by my sense of self and my so far reliable cognitive abilities to accept what I have personally witnessed in regards to the material universe and the spiritual one.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#25    shrooma

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 04:50 AM

View Postredhen, on 24 May 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:



Here we go again. When are you going to stop setting up straw men, just so you can deftly knock them down?
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when I stop being called 'abhorrent' by 'holier than thou' vegetarians for eating meat. there's nothing wrong with putting the shoe on the other foot is there? or don't you understant the concept of 'contradictory stance' on public forums?
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No vegans I know eat plants because they don't talk, or make puppy eyes, please. They eat plants because they do not feel pain, they do not suffer.
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and you KNOW of this how? and please, don't cite 'lack of a central nervous system' as the answer.
(the operative word here being ''know'')
fish don't have a CNS, but would you happily start shredding a live tuna that was in front of you....?
they may not have CNS's, but you stab a fish & watch how fast it takes off. you are anthropomorphizing pain, and considering it to be the only answer.
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I have a simple question for you. Do you brush your teeth? If you do, you are killing thousands of living organisms. How do you justify this behaviour?
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VERY easily. because I have no problem interpreting the world's natural order. plaque bacteria survive by eating ME, so, in a dog eat dog world.....
we consider ourselves at the top of the food chain when nothing could be further from the truth. there are literally thousands of organisms to whom we're the primary food source.
if a tiger were to see me as food, and ate me, I could hardly blame the tiger now could i? not when I fully understand the natural order, but don't for one second think the tiger would leave you alone because of your views on food, because the tiger understands the natural order of things too.

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The Jain religion is all about non-violence (ahimsa), that's why I use their symbol as my avatar. There are many Jains who in fact do not brush their teeth because of the bacteria and microbes that perish. Personally, I think they go too far,
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again 'personally'. now you're beginning to understand about the role of choice, and the meaning of subjectivity. I eat meat because I CHOOSE to do. you DON'T eat meat because you CHOOSE not to. my choice is no less valid than yours, as yours is no less valid than mine, but meat-eaters don't consider vegetarians as monsters because of their choice, so why should the other way around be the case? subjectivity is the key here, remember that. jains might not kill bacteria, and that is their 'personal' choice in the matter, because you 'personally' don't agree is irrelevant to them, because subjectively, those are their views, to which they're entitled, whether the rest of us feel they're misguided or not doesn't, or shouldn't, come into it.
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because these organisms, like plants,  also do not feel pain or suffer.
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again, you KNOW of this how?
and if you DO know, let me be the first to congratulate you on your forthcoming nobel prize.
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This is a logical fallacy, appeal to ignorance.  "the claim that whatever has not been proved false must be true, and vice versa."
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please, don't quote wiki logic at me, it hardly strengthens your argument.
LOGICALLY, you don't understand a plants processes and mechanisms, because scientists who've devoted their entire lives & careers to the problem don't fully understand them, so it's pretty safe to assume you don't, logic not required, just common sense.
please feel free to counter these points in a thread entitled 'meat is murder', or 'all carnivores are b***ards' as this thread is about science & mysticism, and i've just wasted my dinner hour countering a pointless argument.
have a nice day, I know i'm certainly going to try to!
:-)

Edited by shrooma, 25 May 2013 - 04:56 AM.

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#26    shrooma

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:03 AM

View PostRoyal, on 24 May 2013 - 10:43 PM, said:

Hi shrooma, great topic. I don't know much about this kind of thing,but in the case of the flowers mimicing  butterflies,could it be that it's the other way around and that the butterflies evolved to resemble flowers for camouflage and pollination happens in this fashion?
.

thanks royal, I kinda think so too!
i'm not sure it would be the other way round though, as the butterfly wouldn't gain any advantage from imitating the flower, but the flower gains an advantage from mimicking the butterfly by ensuring pollination!

Edited by shrooma, 25 May 2013 - 05:03 AM.

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#27    Lilly

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:34 AM

View Postthird_eye, on 25 May 2013 - 12:57 AM, said:



there is a disturbance in the sith force .... they have a new MOD jedi .....



Well, it could happen, right?   Posted Image

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#28    third_eye

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:39 AM

View PostLilly, on 25 May 2013 - 09:34 AM, said:

Well, it could happen, right?   Posted Image

the Emperor is already gravely concerned ... strong in the force is you ... and the fourth too .... the fifth must go Sith ... :)

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#29    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:48 AM

What I find interesting is you talk about "uniting" two very different trains of thought. Here's some advice though: don't go around bashing the beliefs of other people in other threads just because they upset you and you need to hit a "low blow" so to speak. Also, you assume that "believers" just choose to believe anything they want based on nothing and that they don't come from a scientific background or that they dismiss science. I have very good GCSEs and A levels in Biology, Chemistry and Physics and presently study a science based degree. I LOVE science. You can't tar everybody with the same brush. There's "skeptics" here who don't know the first thing about science and there's "believers" here who know a lot about science. Just like there's people you describe here.

I didn't post here to be a douchebag but after things I've seen you say in threads, via pure mockery, of the beliefs of others, I find it hard to take this thread and its intention to unite people genuinely. If it is? Best of luck to you :)

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 25 May 2013 - 11:51 AM.

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#30    third_eye

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:10 PM

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Mr Einstein wishes to say something .... Albert ?

Posted Image


Thank you Albert ... sorry to have bothered you ....

He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
Horace - Roman lyric poet & satirist 65 BC - 8 BC
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