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dantes map of hell


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#31    kmt_sesh

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 02:59 AM

View PostProclus, on 17 June 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

You are right, this was the initial question.
But this question is wrong, there is no "original" map.
Also Botticellis map is *not* original.

So I dared to suggest an *other* map. Just an other map.
Am I now damned to Dante's hell because of this? Which circle is reserved for me?

And I dared to add value concerning the topic of this forum. Atlantis. Aristotle. Another map.
Dante's Inferno alone is not fitting to this forum but only "Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History".

PS: Ah the bad Web link: http://www.atlantis-...wsl_archive.htm
(It is the one which adds the value)

Proclus, this discussion does not concern Atlantis. Bring that to one of the existing (or recent) discussions about Atlantis. Linking The Divine Comedy to Atlantis is at best tenuous, at worst outright comical.

I've had to say this before and I'd rather not have to say it again, but you are not an expert in these matters. Whether or not the Atlantis web page in your link is of your own creation, it does not constitute a vetted academic review. You cannot use yourself as a source. This is evidently why other posters are so frustrated with you.

Certain things you say come across as quite odd: in this case, that Botticelli's map is not original. I don't know where you're getting that from. Botticelli painted it in the early fifteenth century, on vellum. It is most certainly original. And I know of no respectable source that states Dante cared a whit about the Atlantis fable to the extent that it inspired his Divine Comedy, or even parts of it. The very concept of Inferno is Christian to the core, as are the other two books. Dante's work is largely a cultural expression on his part, as well as a tool to humiliate those who caused him to be tossed out of Florence. In part it was a brilliant work of revenge, as well as a means by which he wished to show his own ascension from the murk of his life.

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#32    LucidElement

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 04:26 AM

Ya I'm enjoying the book. But the history of Dante and Botticelli and Florence is well researched .

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#33    Proclus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 09:53 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 18 June 2013 - 02:59 AM, said:

Proclus, this discussion does not concern Atlantis. Bring that to one of the existing (or recent) discussions about Atlantis. Linking The Divine Comedy to Atlantis is at best tenuous, at worst outright comical.

I've had to say this before and I'd rather not have to say it again, but you are not an expert in these matters. Whether or not the Atlantis web page in your link is of your own creation, it does not constitute a vetted academic review. You cannot use yourself as a source. This is evidently why other posters are so frustrated with you.

Certain things you say come across as quite odd: in this case, that Botticelli's map is not original. I don't know where you're getting that from. Botticelli painted it in the early fifteenth century, on vellum. It is most certainly original. And I know of no respectable source that states Dante cared a whit about the Atlantis fable to the extent that it inspired his Divine Comedy, or even parts of it. The very concept of Inferno is Christian to the core, as are the other two books. Dante's work is largely a cultural expression on his part, as well as a tool to humiliate those who caused him to be tossed out of Florence. In part it was a brilliant work of revenge, as well as a means by which he wished to show his own ascension from the murk of his life.

Dante's Divine Comedy is heavily influenced by Plato and Aristotle, too. Especially Aristotle. Not only Christian stuff can be found there. But Virgil and Ovid contributed a lot, too. Dante depicts himself as follower of Aristotle, again and again. Dante reproduces the Aristotelian geography. The question of Atlantis is very close ... especially since so many poets included Atlantis in their works. Why not Dante? The question is legitimate.

"The original map of hell painted by Boticelli" (initial posting) is an interpretation. It is an interpretation of Dante's text. It is an interpretation as every picture showing Dante's world. There is no picture of Dante's world which can claim to be "the original". An exception would be a drawing of Dante himself from the time when he wrote his Divine Comedy, but I think such a drawing does not exist.

Maybe this is all because of Dan Brown's new book and Dan Brown calls this map "the original map"? This could be an explanation. I haven't read Dan Brown, yet. I will do it soon.

You wrote:
> Whether or not the Atlantis web page in your link is of your own creation, it does not constitute a vetted academic review.

My page provides reasonable thoughts and Academic sources for everybody who wants to see how Aristotle and the Atlantis question can (or not can!) be related to Dante's Inferno. Everybody is invited to share these thoughts, or not to share these thoughts. For free.

And instead of discussing whether I am allowed to set this link or not I rather preferred to discuss Dante, maps on Dante, and related stuff (such as Atlantis).

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#34    Abramelin

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 11:30 AM

LucidElement wanted to know where the original of Botticelli's representation of Dante's Inferno was.

Not if there are older representations of Dante's Inferno by other artists.


Btw, Proclus, if you are still interested in that possible link between Hell and Atlantis,then you should read that post I quoted from the Doggerland thread, but it would be too far off topic to discuss that here.

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Edited by Abramelin, 18 June 2013 - 11:30 AM.


#35    Proclus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:46 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 18 June 2013 - 11:30 AM, said:

LucidElement wanted to know where the original of Botticelli's representation of Dante's Inferno was.

Not if there are older representations of Dante's Inferno by other artists.


Btw, Proclus, if you are still interested in that possible link between Hell and Atlantis,then you should read that post I quoted from the Doggerland thread, but it would be too far off topic to discuss that here.

.

Your "definition" of "original" must be very strange. Are there copies of Boticelli's work by Boticelli? Then, maybe, it would make sense to talk of "original" as you say, but I cannot see this.

Doggerland hell: The Orea Linda book is clearly a falsification. Not very interesting.

_

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#36    Abramelin

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:52 PM

View PostProclus, on 18 June 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Your "definition" of "original" must be very strange. Are there copies of Boticelli's work by Boticelli? Then, maybe, it would make sense to talk of "original" as you say, but I cannot see this.

Doggerland hell: The Orea Linda book is clearly a falsification. Not very interesting.

_

I said "Doggerland thread", not "Oera Linda Book thread".

The OLB thread IS very interesting, but you will have the take to trouble to wade though it (it's only a 1000+ pages at this moment - that's part 1 and 2 combined-),  but that wouldn't deter someone truely interested in ancient history.

Btw: I think your command of the English language is somewhat lacking...or.... that you are intent on not understanding me.

Check the first post in this thread, please.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 June 2013 - 07:02 PM.


#37    jaylemurph

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 06:53 PM

View PostProclus, on 18 June 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Your "definition" of "original" must be very strange. Are there copies of Boticelli's work by Boticelli? Then, maybe, it would make sense to talk of "original" as you say, but I cannot see this.

Doggerland hell: The Orea Linda book is clearly a falsification. Not very interesting.

_

Any other baseless fiats you'd like to make, Proclus? I mean, if you're going to dictate what is interesting to whom, there's not much point in having this site or any of its members post. I may not think the OLB is on its face depicting literal truth, but I'd never go so far as to unilaterally say it's not interesting.

But then again, I wouldn't go so far as to say a lot of things you do. (Hence the beauty of a discussion forum, I suppose.)

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#38    Proclus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:30 PM

@jaylemurph:
> Any other baseless fiats you'd like to make, Proclus?
> I mean, if you're going to dictate what is interesting to whom

Oh, did I? Did I dictate - to whom it is interesting? Really?
"Any other baseless fiats you'd like to make", jaylemurph?

> I may not think the OLB is on its face depicting literal truth, but I'd never go so far as to unilaterally say it's not interesting.

Ah, and now you dictate to me what is interesting? By this phrase "I'd never go so far as to" you clearly make a statement not only about you ...

> But then again, I wouldn't go so far as to say a lot of things you do. (Hence the beauty of a discussion forum, I suppose.)

I know your politeness very well, jaylemurph.
Your expertise is the destruction of a good reputation by false imputations.
Well-knitted ones.
Your name is noted.

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#39    Proclus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:42 PM

@Abramelin:
> Btw: I think your command of the English language is somewhat lacking...or.... that you are intent on not understanding me.
> Check the first post in this thread, please.

First posting is:
> Where is the original map of hell Painted by Botticelli , recounting Dantes Inferno ?

I can see the following ways to interepret this question:

a ) Emphasis on "original map", only added: "painted by".

Then the one who asks shows the error to believe that there is "the" original map of Dante's Inferno. There is no such "original" map as I explained, all paintings are interpretations.

b ) Emphasis on "painted by".

Then the one who asks shows the error to believe that there are copies ... and an original. He wants to know where the original is, he adds "original" in order to notifiy that he is not interested in the copies. But there is no "original" since there is only one painting, the one and only. No original plus copies, but only one.

In my *humble* opinion the one who asks better had omitted the word "original", then it makes full sense:
"Where is the map of hell Painted by Botticelli , recounting Dantes Inferno ?"
This question is flawless and can be answered straightforwardly.

Why do I have to examine this in such detail? Can't you please understand this on your own?
Or do *you* have a lack of understanding language in general, not only the English language?
Do I have to give you an English lesson in interpretation?

Edited by Proclus, 18 June 2013 - 07:42 PM.

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#40    jaylemurph

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:48 PM

View PostProclus, on 18 June 2013 - 07:30 PM, said:

Oh, did I? Did I dictate - to whom it is interesting? Really?
"Any other baseless fiats you'd like to make", jaylemurph?

This:

Quote

The Orea Linda book is clearly a falsification. Not very interesting.

Q.E.D.

Quote

Ah, and now you dictate to me what is interesting? By this phrase "I'd never go so far as to" you clearly make a statement not only about you ...

Fair enough. Allow me to re-phrase: "I'd go so far as to say most people would find something interesting about it, but clearly -- by his own admission -- not Proclus." That seems more reasonable.

Quote

I know your politeness very well, jaylemurph.
Your expertise is the destruction of a good reputation by false imputations.
Well-knitted ones.
Your name is noted.

...I'd say you being your regular self does far more to kill your good reputation. You don't need any outside help in that department.

--Jaylemurph

PS: "Your name is noted"? How pretentious and cod-cryptic is that? All it really does it bring up images of you and the ghost of Nixon mumbling to yourselves, filling out an 'Enemies List'.

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#41    JesseCuster

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 07:59 PM

View PostProclus, on 18 June 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Your "definition" of "original" must be very strange. Are there copies of Boticelli's work by Boticelli? Then, maybe, it would make sense to talk of "original" as you say, but I cannot see this.
It seemed clear to me.  He wanted to know where the original is, i.e. the physical artwork produced by Botticelli, as opposed to reproductions, like digital copies on the web or prints of the painting.  You're being overly nitpicky about something that seemed pretty clear to others.

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#42    Proclus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:06 PM

@jaylemurph:

> Q.E.D.

I say "Not very interesting." and you say QED that it shows I wanted to "dictate" something?
How ridiculous are *you*?! Hahahaha!

> Fair enough. Allow me to re-phrase

No, I do not allow you to rephrase *your* dictate to others.

> All it really does it bring up images of you and the ghost of Nixon mumbling to yourselves, filling out an 'Enemies List'.

You *are* obviously my enemy. Please surrender!

_

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#43    Proclus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:20 PM

View PostJesseCuster, on 18 June 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

It seemed clear to me.  He wanted to know where the original is, i.e. the physical artwork produced by Botticelli, as opposed to reproductions, like digital copies on the web or prints of the painting.  You're being overly nitpicky about something that seemed pretty clear to others.

Thank you for your opinion. You are right. Yes, you are right, the initial poster obviously asked exactly for this, as I stated above, but ...
... but the real problem is: Why can't others just let me go with a more subtle interpretation?
An interpretation which is *not* base-less? Which is *not* wrong, bad, evil, biased?
Since I did my first posting here, I am put to the defence again and again, but why?
I just said that the question was wrong and contributed an alternative map and additional thoughts on Dante, and the hell broke loose.

I wanted to help. To add value. To clarify a misunderstanding.

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#44    jaylemurph

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:42 PM

View PostProclus, on 18 June 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

@jaylemurph:
I say "Not very interesting." and you say QED that it shows I wanted to "dictate" something?
How ridiculous are *you*?! Hahahaha!

Oh, very. I never take myself very seriously at all. Nor am I ever certain of anything. It's a sign of weakness.

Quote

No, I do not allow you to rephrase *your* dictate to others.

You misunderstand me. I wasn't asking your personal permission. :)

Quote

You *are* obviously my enemy. Please surrender!

Oh, you're far too boring to be anyone's actual enemy, let alone one of /mine/. Surrender? No thanks. :)

..and as charming as these exchanges are, I think they should end and a return made to the topic. :)

--Jaylemurph

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#45    Proclus

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Posted 18 June 2013 - 08:48 PM

@jaylemurph:

> and as charming as these exchanges are, I think they should end and a return made to the topic.

Agreed.
This time you are fleeing the forum. Last time I did.

_

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