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The repercussions of being Atheist


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#61    spacecowboy342

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Posted 23 August 2013 - 12:13 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 29 May 2013 - 01:28 PM, said:

To answer your question in the OP. The only real repercussion of being an atheist is that you cut yourself off from god and his connection to you, and all the empowerment and increase in human potential being connected to a powerful entity gives a human being

  An atheist can be everything a theist can be, EXCEPT empowered by god, and a physical connection to god.  (unless god decides to empower them anyway)

That is (in my experience) a huge limitation on an individual's human potential and ability. But those who chose not to believe are rarely given the opportunity to experience this empowement and enhancement, and so have nothing to compare their life as an  atheist with. However wonderful and great a life is as an individual being, body and mind, it is better connected to god.
A theist can no more be empowered by God than a theist as He, She, It, as they don't exist


#62    brlesq1

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 11:49 AM

This is why I stay away from discussions of this sort. I have my own beliefs, and that's that.

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#63    DBunker

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 01:35 PM

Hi, Spock.... I wonder why you sign every post with your SIG when it says so right there over your avatar???

Now that communications technology has made it possible to give global reach to the bizarre and archive it forever, it is essential for men and women of reason resolutely to counter the delusions of the fringe element. James S. Robbins

#64    Frank Merton

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Posted 25 August 2013 - 04:41 PM

I think maybe it's a bit too much to say that the atheist "cuts oneself off from God."  In fact that strikes me as highly arrogant, as though it would be possible to do such a thing if such a being existed.

I already know the stock response to that -- "free will," so don't bother trying to persuade me with that particular bit of illogical nonsense.  It leads to insoluble logical contradictions, and I feel when a teaching is internally contradictory then it is necessarily false.


#65    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 01:57 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 23 August 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

A theist can no more be empowered by God than a theist as He, She, It, as they don't exist

Let us supose you are factually incorrect; then you are wrong.  God physically exists and physically empowers and protects me. I know this as clearly, and using the same evidences as I know my wife exists.

But, secondly, you are wrong even if god does notphysically exist but exists only as a mental construct.. The mere, but total, belief in a  god whether or not one exists, creates real world physical and psychological empowerments including; pain reduction, longer life, better health, and more specifically, greater happiness for patients in nursing homes. ALL facts established by science.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#66    Zaphod222

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:06 AM

View PostSpock_the_Future, on 28 May 2013 - 08:39 PM, said:

But it does say a lot about the style of preaching that goes on here for the religious people, I am happy at least it is not Kill the non-believer kind of thing.


And that, for me, is the decisive point. I have no problem with nuttiness, as long as it harmless.
But by and large, when I watch modern atheists (like e.g. in the "Atheist Experience" show), they are so busy bashing Christianity, which does no harm, while ignoring the real massive problem out there, which is islam.

Besides barking up the wrong tree, this represents cowardice to me. They take candy from babies, instead of addressing the real issue.

Edited by Zaphod222, 27 August 2013 - 02:06 AM.

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#67    spacecowboy342

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:07 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 27 August 2013 - 01:57 AM, said:

Let us supose you are factually incorrect; then you are wrong.  God physically exists and physically empowers and protects me. I know this as clearly, and using the same evidences as I know my wife exists.

But, secondly, you are wrong even if god does notphysically exist but exists only as a mental construct.. The mere, but total, belief in a  god whether or not one exists, creates real world physical and psychological empowerments including; pain reduction, longer life, better health, and more specifically, greater happiness for patients in nursing homes. ALL facts established by science.
I will concede that if I am factually incorrect then I am wrong but in the second case I think you are wrong because then you are crediting God for empowerment that actually comes from inside you and can be duplicated in other ways. But my earlier statement might have been a little harsh. God could exist. I just find my empowerment in other ways


#68    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:08 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 25 August 2013 - 04:41 PM, said:

I think maybe it's a bit too much to say that the atheist "cuts oneself off from God."  In fact that strikes me as highly arrogant, as though it would be possible to do such a thing if such a being existed.

I already know the stock response to that -- "free will," so don't bother trying to persuade me with that particular bit of illogical nonsense.  It leads to insoluble logical contradictions, and I feel when a teaching is internally contradictory then it is necessarily false.

Let us supose that god exists only as a mental construct . Then an athiest mentally cuts them self off from this construct and all the benefits accruing from it.

Let us supoose god exists, but god's physical relationship withh a human is determined by the humans attitude to god (just as it works for human beings relationships with each other. If i cut myself off from my wife emotionally and physically there is little she can do about it) If god is real but I cut myslef off from god by refusing to accept his reality or listen to him or communicate with him, then again god cannot easily force himself into my life.

ANd thirdly. Suppose god does exist and does force his physical presence into my life (as indeed he has done) IT is STILL up to me how I respond. A confirmed and absolute athiest might well deny the existence of god depite any physical evidences and construct alternative realities beliefs in an attempt to stay sane and maintain the coherence of their world view.

I do not see where free will is an issue here, although scientifically, logically and philosophically, given the natrue of human sapience/cognitive abilty, free will and free choice is, to me, a given. Our evolutionary development could not have come about once we became cognitively aware, if we were not able to make free willed choices based on data and acquired comparative understandings, and respond freely to our  inner and outer environments. One cannot evolve beyond a basic level of cognitive development without free will.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#69    Mr Walker

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:13 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 27 August 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

I will concede that if I am factually incorrect then I am wrong but in the second case I think you are wrong because then you are crediting God for empowerment that actually comes from inside you and can be duplicated in other ways. But my earlier statement might have been a little harsh. God could exist. I just find my empowerment in other ways
True; some empowerments can be created in other ways including  study, discipline, work and time. But belief gives them to everyone/anyone; simply,  immediately, and without effort. No comparison in my mind. The empowerments simply come from belief but also from the fact that people who believe, then act and shape their life to those beliefs creating better outcomes without effort.

Of course, in my experience, god is physically and mentally  in me, and I am physically and mentally in god, so I agree that ALL which we are comes from within us, but that it also comes from god.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#70    spacecowboy342

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:16 AM

View PostMr Walker, on 27 August 2013 - 02:13 AM, said:

True; some empowerments can be created in other ways including  study, discipline, work and time. But belief gives them to everyone/anyone; simply,  immediately, and without effort. No comparison in my mind. The empowerments simply come from belief but also from the fact that people who believe, then act and shape their life to those beliefs creating better outcomes without effort.

Of course, in my experience, god is physically and mentally  in me, and I am physically and mentally in god, so I agree that ALL which we are comes from within us, but that it also comes from god.
Belief in God may give empowerment without effort as you say but then you have to live a life of delusion(IMO) I would prefer to make whatever effort required to live my life by rationality and not superstition


#71    shadowsot

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 02:35 AM

Quote

But by and large, when I watch modern atheists (like e.g. in the "Atheist Experience" show), they are so busy bashing Christianity, which does no harm, while ignoring the real massive problem out there, which is islam.
Atheist Experience responds to their callers. Most of their callers are christian. hence most of their responses are to Christians. Because this is a country in which Christianity is the majority.

They do have called who are Muslim or Hindu or other, and they give them the same as the Christians.
And as I've mentioned previously, Atheists have and continue to attack Islam, which is why if you search for New Atheists you pick up plenty of links to Islamaphobia.


It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#72    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:02 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 27 August 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Let us supose that god exists only as a mental construct . Then an athiest mentally cuts them self off from this construct and all the benefits accruing from it.

And cuts himself off from the detriments also, and enjoys the all the corresponding benefits of atheism.

Quote

Let us supoose god exists, but god's physical relationship withh a human is determined by the humans attitude to god (just as it works for human beings relationships with each other. If i cut myself off from my wife emotionally and physically there is little she can do about it) If god is real but I cut myslef off from god by refusing to accept his reality or listen to him or communicate with him, then again god cannot easily force himself into my life.

God can easily do anything, he is not confined in any way by your understanding of him.  I have no expectation that our relationships with other humans should at all be indicative of how our relationship with a supreme God should operate, not sure why you do.

Quote

ANd thirdly. Suppose god does exist and does force his physical presence into my life (as indeed he has done) IT is STILL up to me how I respond. A confirmed and absolute athiest might well deny the existence of god depite any physical evidences and construct alternative realities beliefs in an attempt to stay sane and maintain the coherence of their world view.

There are an almost infinite number of ways that God could 'force his presence' into any person's life, atheist or not, that would make his existence nearly undeniable.

Quote

Our evolutionary development could not have come about once we became cognitively aware, if we were not able to make free willed choices based on data and acquired comparative understandings, and respond freely to our  inner and outer environments. One cannot evolve beyond a basic level of cognitive development without free will.

That's fine but this is pure opinion, I see no reason why free will is required to evolve beyond a basic level of cognitive development, that makes little sense and is not at all required.  Simply name one example of cognitive development that could not have developed without free will, and explain what physically is preventing the alternative of essentially programmed algorithms in our brain from achieving this, or the illusion of it.  Sorry man, we have no idea if anything that we think or do is categorically any different as far as being deterministic compared to lower animals; it might simply be that we have more elaborate programming than them and no actual 'free will'.

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#73    Leonardo

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Posted 27 August 2013 - 05:35 PM

View PostMr Walker, on 27 August 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Let us supose that god exists only as a mental construct . Then an athiest mentally cuts them self off from this construct and all the benefits accruing from it.

Not necessarily. If god exists only as a mental construct, then an atheist could simply have a different construct (or several) to provide any "mental benefits" a belief in god would bring. Secular Humanism is an example of this.

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#74    Mr Walker

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:09 AM

View Postspacecowboy342, on 27 August 2013 - 02:16 AM, said:

Belief in God may give empowerment without effort as you say but then you have to live a life of delusion(IMO) I would prefer to make whatever effort required to live my life by rationality and not superstition
First. How do you KNOW what is delusion and what is reality? And secondly, if a delusion brings positive results, is that not better than a perceived reality which brings harmful results.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#75    Mr Walker

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Posted 28 August 2013 - 02:15 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 27 August 2013 - 05:35 PM, said:

Not necessarily. If god exists only as a mental construct, then an atheist could simply have a different construct (or several) to provide any "mental benefits" a belief in god would bring. Secular Humanism is an example of this.
I was a secular humnist for two decades Secular humanism is an advance on  atheism, because, in its philosophical manifesto, it contains and promotes positive beliefs, values, outcomes and ethics. Even so it does NOT grant the measurable benefits to human beings which a belief does.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.




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