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The Paranormal is it Fake?


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#61    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 08:49 PM

I think we all have expireinced paranormal event in our lives just some person ignore it and some are aware of it.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#62    White Crane Feather

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:04 PM

View Postthe L, on 31 May 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

I think we all have expireinced paranormal event in our lives just some person ignore it and some are aware of it.

You are right totally... the marginal point of contention is what Is misinterpretation and what is not. I believe both dynamics are present.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#63    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:10 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 31 May 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

You are right totally... the marginal point of contention is what Is misinterpretation and what is not. I believe both dynamics are present.

Seeker I know for several paranormal events which happened that when you told to people ...mute is followed.
When I have more times to post it Im sure we two will have many things to exchange.
Im off UM. Just have little gap in my obligations and duties.
But when I come back for good we will discuss it if you still be here.

Edited by the L, 31 May 2013 - 09:15 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#64    White Crane Feather

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:18 PM

View Postthe L, on 31 May 2013 - 09:10 PM, said:



Seeker I know for several paranormal events which happened that when you told to people ...mute is followed.
When I have more times to post it Im sure we two will have many things to exchange.
Im off UM. Just have little gap in my obligations and duties.
But when I come back for good we will discussed if you still be here.
I understand totally. If it were not for my over nervous personality and spending 98% of my time with children ( seriously I live In kiddie land).  I would not but I am. seriously the bulk of my adult relationships are here on UM. I'm not going anywhere unless they evenchually kick me off. ;)

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#65    Heaven Is A Halfpipe

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:35 PM

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Uh, 90%? We don't even know how much universe there is.

What exactly are your scientific credentials to dispute this claim? I ask because a scientist made the claim, not me.

Quote

Sure. Show me the evidence x2.

I already showed you what I wanted you to look at. It was ignored until I had to bring them up a couple of times.

The fact that some scientists are recognising that there is something unknown and something very real about people who claim they have experiences cannot be overlooked. Whether you personally like the people or not.

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe, 31 May 2013 - 09:37 PM.

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#66    Spock_the_Future

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 09:39 PM

Hi,

I believe in paranormal, that is I think that things do occur (me being Atheist, Weird I know, but GOD and paranormal are two different things for me, there can be pan-dimensional beings and need not be because of GOD).

Please don't mind me saying that I Agree with posts of people whom I read on the first page, Your's is a Wrong Question.

Just state a case, which you think is disputable and for which the scientific explanation given are questionable. Start a new thread.

It's only Then that we can take the discussion in the proper way and then the flaws in the scientific explanation can be questioned and Alternates developed.

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I am a bad subject for polls, I believe almost anything.

#67    Sakari

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Posted 31 May 2013 - 10:42 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 31 May 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

You are awefully smart for a fisherman Sakari ;) by the way the boys bagged about 20 blue gill in the last few days. Pan fry heaven and guts for the dad traps. Woohooo


Awesome!!!!!

You really need to make it up this way some time.....If anything for a BBQ and a beer or two.

Some day, I might be able to get 4 or 5 days off in a row......For, the " other" thing... :tu:

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#68    xFelix

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 12:29 AM

View Postscowl, on 31 May 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Apparently you didn't bother to look at this link or you were not able to understand it. It does not say disbelief is the "absence of belief". Please look at it again.

Disbelief requires "inability" or "refusal" to believe something. We are perfectly willing and able to believe something given evidence that it is true or exists. This is not disbelief by this definition.
In other words, you refuse to believe in something until someone shows you proof... As in disbelief?

View Postscowl, on 31 May 2013 - 03:53 PM, said:

That's because it doesn't exist and you are the only one in the world who believes it could exist.
I already posted quoting skeptics claiming these facts to exist...

Quote

If using Doctors Journals, as " facts " to diagnosis is against the rules ( with links an quotes ) that is like taking away a baseball players arms and legs and telling him to go play ball.

Only real Doctors can post those things?.....Sorry, I am out.

Actually, diagnosing medical illness according to any material while not being qualified to do so is malpractice. You intend to present malpractice as verifiable evidence that something does not exist? I understand why you want nothing to do with the subject, because this is something that simply cannot be proven. Stating that the rules are too strict when in fact they are just reinforcing modern medicine is an incoherent statement.

After reviewing the experiences category all I see is skeptics diagnosing medical illness without the proper qualifications to do such.. Is there a logical explanation for this other than "I read the symptoms can be xxx"? Symptoms on lots of issues can be identical, and in some cases people can even have symptoms of illness while not being ill at all... So what qualifies these people to diagnose unsuspecting people simply sharing their own experiences?

Edited by xFelix, 01 June 2013 - 12:32 AM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#69    Sakari

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 01:01 AM

View PostxFelix, on 01 June 2013 - 12:29 AM, said:

After reviewing the experiences category all I see is skeptics diagnosing medical illness without the proper qualifications to do such.. Is there a logical explanation for this other than "I read the symptoms can be xxx"? Symptoms on lots of issues can be identical, and in some cases people can even have symptoms of illness while not being ill at all... So what qualifies these people to diagnose unsuspecting people simply sharing their own experiences?


Do I need to link all of the cases of deaths from people using faith healing and exorcisms when a Doctor could have easilly saved there lives? ( again )

So, it is ok to tell people to burn sage and pray, but not ok to suggest seeing a Doctor, and using facts and links to support seeing one.

Sorry, giving advice to see a Doctor, and replying a opinion on a medical condition it "could " be is different then diagnosing someone.




Now, telling them they have a demon, or potergeist, and telling them to burn sage, or call a psychic.....That IS diagnosing, and under your rules, should not be allowed, and punishable under law. I agree 100% with that.




Also, can you quote anywhere that a skeptic diagnosed anything medical?.......And I mean that. That is a reportable offense.

I have only seen things like " It could be ".....Or " it sounds like ".......or, " sounds like symptoms of ".....

So, please go get some quotes of people diagnosing. I will report them myself.


You need to focus on not exagerating what people really post, it is frustrating and causes un needed " heat ".

Edited by Sakari, 01 June 2013 - 01:09 AM.

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#70    xFelix

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 03:45 AM

View PostSakari, on 01 June 2013 - 01:01 AM, said:

Do I need to link all of the cases of deaths from people using faith healing and exorcisms when a Doctor could have easilly saved there lives? ( again )
So, it is ok to tell people to burn sage and pray, but not ok to suggest seeing a Doctor, and using facts and links to support seeing one.
Sorry, giving advice to see a Doctor, and replying a opinion on a medical condition it "could " be is different then diagnosing someone.
So you are saying that faith healing gone wrong is allowed by the guidelines of this conversation to prove the paranormal is fake?
Nope not faith healing, not even quoting a doctor's symptoms that can or cannot be the cause of something(Unless you are a Doctor).


Now, telling them they have a demon, or potergeist, and telling them to burn sage, or call a psychic.....That IS diagnosing, and under your rules, should not be allowed, and punishable under law. I agree 100% with that.
Derailing a thread simply asking for the proof or facts of something not existing(that some claim to have) by bringing about a conversation based on opinion.. That is called deflecting.




Also, can you quote anywhere that a skeptic diagnosed anything medical?.......And I mean that. That is a reportable offense.

I have only seen things like " It could be ".....Or " it sounds like ".......or, " sounds like symptoms of ".....

So, please go get some quotes of people diagnosing. I will report them myself.
Sounds like wordplay to me, how about you?

You need to focus on not exagerating what people really post, it is frustrating and causes un needed " heat ".

I can handle "heat" so long as they can handle having their very own words being thrown back in their face. I am not exaggerating, just simply quoting people and holding them to their words.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#71    Sakari

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 04:17 AM

View PostxFelix, on 01 June 2013 - 03:45 AM, said:

I can handle "heat" so long as they can handle having their very own words being thrown back in their face. I am not exaggerating, just simply quoting people and holding them to their words.


You say a conversation based on opinion.

I know you have seen me say this 3 times at least, so here is number 4 to ensure.

1. If someone says " This is what I believe ", I do not even discuss it.I may talk, but will not ask for evidence or anything to back it up, as I respect when someone says that, and I respect someone having a belief. I may not agree with it, but I am not one to try to change someones opinion when stated that way.

2. If someone says " this is what I believe, any suggestions".....That is asking for conversation and suggestions.

3. " I know it is real "......That is said a lot when talking about ones belief. That one, that opens the door all the way.


And finally.....

This is a open discussion forum. It is open to both sides of the fence, even on top of it.

Anyway, I do not know how to communicate with you, and there are only 2 people here that seem to read into my replies, not sure why. I can not help you with that. I guess you can go ahead and think what you want, I can only say again, I am only replying to other replies, not to people. And, I am not mocking anyone just because I disagree. Asking for evidence, facts, or clarification is not mocking, nor is debating.

I would still love to see any quotes of anyone giving a medical diagnosis as a for sure answer.

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#72    White Crane Feather

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 05:01 AM

View PostSakari, on 31 May 2013 - 10:42 PM, said:




Awesome!!!!!

You really need to make it up this way some time.....If anything for a BBQ and a beer or two.

Some day, I might be able to get 4 or 5 days off in a row......For, the " other" thing... :tu:

It's been on my list. A beer as I work my way up the coast sounds great or ... The other thing... for a friend is also awesome .. Im finding as the little one gets older my wayward adventures into god knows what are diminishing. You would think I could handle it being that I have 2 older ones, but the older ones starting to do things and the younger one requiring attention is a new dimension for me. In my line of work I take care of the kids with school and a billion other things then I spend all afternoon and evening with everyone else's kids. I'm also finding it difficult now to take off without them. They know when my bags and gear start packing... they get all crazy begging me to bring them... It's getting difficult. But don't worry I'll make my way up.

The other thing we talked about is still on the table aswell... But I'll have to talk to you about that in pm or email.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#73    xFelix

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 05:55 AM

View PostSakari, on 01 June 2013 - 04:17 AM, said:

3. " I know it is real "......That is said a lot when talking about ones belief. That one, that opens the door all the way.
Is this not the same as you saying you have facts, and those who disagree open the door to being brain washed?

Anyway, I do not know how to communicate with you, and there are only 2 people here that seem to read into my replies, not sure why. I can not help you with that. I guess you can go ahead and think what you want, I can only say again, I am only replying to other replies, not to people. And, I am not mocking anyone just because I disagree. Asking for evidence, facts, or clarification is not mocking, nor is debating.

That is fine, don't communicate with me, just show me your facts or stop claiming to have them.

Edited by xFelix, 01 June 2013 - 05:59 AM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#74    Liquid Gardens

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostSeeker79, on 31 May 2013 - 03:35 PM, said:

That's because what you are saying is built on assumptions.

Well of course, everything is built on some assumptions to some extent.  The problem is that, instead of responding to what I've said, you just blithely continue on making assumptions about what my assumptions are.  Let's try something very simple, you've been saying how your interpretation of quantum mechanics disproves materialism, let's accept that as a given, fine you are right.  I've been asking about this spirit world you believe exists and why.  So, is it your position that everyone who agrees with you that materialism is false must also believe in a spirit world?  I think the answer is obviously no.  Thus there are people who believe materialism is false yet don't believe in the spirit world; assume that I am one of those people.  Something immaterial must exist, fine, and that immaterial something may take any form, it doesn't even have to involve 'beings' of any sort, that doesn't follow at all from anything QM has to say.  Therefore there should be no further reason to discuss what you think my assumptions are about materialism as I agree with you.

Quote

All do respect LG I do not buy into the religious belief that 'scientific' research can only be evaluated by self proclaimed experts. The common person can make good judgments as well with simple critical thinking.

Yeesh, it's not a 'religious' belief, you really can't seem to help poisoning the well on every statement that disagrees with you by insinuating bias or blind spots of some sort.  The common person doesn't know squat about chemistry, physics, medicine, least of all quantum mechanics.

Quote

By whose criteria? You want physical evidence of a non physical reality. Good Luck with that. This is not a straw man . A philosophical materialist/physicalist  cannot, by philosophical decree, accept any kind of evidence that is not based upon baryonic matter/energy.

There is no such thing as 'philosophical decree', there is no irresistable force locking me into a viewpoint that only the material can exist.  You are essentially asserting that you can read my mind and know that since I am so wedded to materialism that I'm biased toward your 'evidence' whatever it actually is; that is really a terrible argument.  If you don't think it is, then back it up, demonstrate your irrefutable evidence of my philosophical outlook.

Quote

But before you engage me in the conversation, you should arm your self a bit. You should read Susan Blackmore's book where she proposes the dying brain hypothesis, then the rebuttals, then look up the myriad of NDE reports, then the criticisms, then the criticisms of the criticisms. Then look up ongoing experiments on the issue included in the Aware Study on other studies on consciousness. If you have not done this than you have no business offering your opinion as anything other than materialistically biased assumptions.

Well that didn't take long; a paragraph ago the 'common person can make good judgments as well with simple critical thinking', and now it's the total opposite, unless I've read all the books and papers you want me to I've got no business offering my opinion.  Not very consistent are you.  Likewise, until you've read the books I want you to on critical thinking and what constitutes evidence, you have no business offering your opinion as anything other than fantasy-based biased assumptions.  Boy, that sure was easy; are you compelled by my/your 'argument' there?

Quote

You act like it. The only information I have to go on is how you present yourself. You argue from materialist position. If you personally are not biased against the immaterial that's fine, but if you are insinuating that there is no immaterial to be biased against because I cant possibly be biased against leprechauns then my point is wholly made, and your goggles are thick indeed. Besides I rather like the little guys.

Ha, agreed, actually I may have seen some leprechauns on a few St Patrick's Day's. :tu: But is it really so difficult to stick strictly to what I say and forget how I 'present' myself?   I'm trying to stick to just the words you are typing and that's it.  I don't believe I ever said I'm a materialist; if not all immaterialists believe in the spirit world then you are just guessing that I am one, just because I don't think a spirit world exists.

Quote

What is it actually that you want me to respond to that I have not. Why don't you present in in a bullet format and I will respond in the same way. Point by point number by number.

I should just copy and paste what I wrote a couple posts ago, but your suggestion might be a good way to break it down.
  • Fact: Many people apparently have experiences that they believe are indicative of spirit worlds, astral planes, heavens and hells, deities, demons, psychic powers, etc.
  • Fact: Many of these claims cannot be verified by anyone else, for many of them the evidence that it actually occurred is that the person had this experience and correctly interpreted it, that's it.  You've defined your spirit world for example as having no physical evidence to evaluate.
  • - Question:  how do you evaluate and verify non-physical evidence?  How do you evaluate other people's experiences that are non-physical, what is the process?
  • Fact:  Not all of these interpretations can actually be true; see: Jesus and I'd guess many other non-physical things that are contradictory.
  • Thus, it appears that many people's interpretations of their experiences are inaccurate. Thus, these experiences are not very reliable as evidence for these non-physical realms, beings, and powers.
  • So if you agree that lots and lots of people are deriving inaccurate conclusions from their entirely subjective experiences, then why are you so certain that you are not one of them?  It is apparently very common.  What specifically differentiates your spirit world claim from the similar claims of these people who are actually wrong?
Because to me, I'm not seeing too much to differentiate them.  I'm not sure how you can differentiate them without physical evidence of any sort.  If you're going to just jump to 'you can't know unless you've had the experience' or 'I just KNOW what happened', then fine, but then your claim goes into the same long list of claims with people saying the exact same things to 'support' them.  Although I don't know that any specific thing on that list of claims is absolutely false, I know they can't all be true, and with nothing to differentiate between the false and true ones, there isn't really much reason or evidence to believe any of them are true unless some better evidence is provided.

That's really the crux:  how do you differentiate these types of claims that have no physical evidence?  Do you believe some are false and, as long as they don't outright conflict with some scientific finding or something which your spirit world does not, how do you know they are false?

Quote

Tons have been produced. Its your assumptions that limit you.

Yea, and that's still just a cop-out. If I say, "your non-material philosophical decree has rendered you too gullible and credulous too accurately understand that what you are offering is not evidence", would you be convinced?  I'm doing the same thing as you:  taking things that you've said and making bad assumptions about your mindset.  It sure is easy to do that's for sure, I don't know why you think it means much though.

Quote

Its not in the primary school system because we have separation from church and state and anything close to spirituality falls under fire. Even group meditations are forbidden because people get touchy about it. The primary school system is not about facts its about indoctrination and citizenry. Why else do you think they teach our children twisted history. From the thanksgiving feast to Hiroshima, facts are NOT apart of primary school. Sorry to burst that bubble for you.

Ah yes, more arguments of the type, "it's true and there is convincing evidence, but everyone's biased".  It's amazing how useful the math I learned in school has proven in my career, I guess that must all be an illusion since facts are not a part of school.

"You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into"
"That which can be asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without evidence" - C. Hitchens
"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool" - Richard Feynman

#75    xFelix

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Posted 01 June 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostLiquid Gardens, on 01 June 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

Because to me, I'm not seeing too much to differentiate them.  I'm not sure how you can differentiate them without physical evidence of any sort.  If you're going to just jump to 'you can't know unless you've had the experience' or 'I just KNOW what happened', then fine, but then your claim goes into the same long list of claims with people saying the exact same things to 'support' them.  Although I don't know that any specific thing on that list of claims is absolutely false, I know they can't all be true, and with nothing to differentiate between the false and true ones, there isn't really much reason or evidence to believe any of them are true unless some better evidence is provided.

That's really the crux:  how do you differentiate these types of claims that have no physical evidence?  Do you believe some are false and, as long as they don't outright conflict with some scientific finding or something which your spirit world does not, how do you know they are false?
It's quite simple really. Seeker and I have never claimed the spirit world to be fact, just our own opinions based on our experiences.
YES, that does make our belief an unsupported claim, one that nobody has been able to disprove.
Even you admit to not having any knowledge of such being disproved.
You are right, while some actually base their opinions on experiences others form these opinions on popularity, hearsay etc etc.. Differentiating between true and false
opinions is an oxymoron and is impeding on one's rights to believe in what they may. Differentiating between true or false should only take place when someone claims something as fact.
You don't seem to understand that personal experiences are more than enough to build personal beliefs, this happens all too commonly. You keep trying to force peoples beliefs to be based on facts when there are no facts in either direction to be had.

As I said it's simple, we believe in something because we have experienced something. You do not believe in the same because you have not experienced the same. There are no facts to prove such does or doesn't exist, thus there is no reason to tell people that it absolutely does not exist.(And yes there is reason for us to believe in it, our experiences.)

For the record, even if there was evidence to disprove certain things, chastising/tormenting/insulting/mocking others for exercising their right to believe in what they may would still be wrong.

I am however still waiting for the facts that say that this stuff doesn't exist, because that IS being presented as fact, and IS being used as grounds to mock, torment, insult, and ultimately chastise others.

Edited by xFelix, 01 June 2013 - 03:20 PM.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.





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