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any questions for Philip Morris?


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#46    DieChecker

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 08:05 PM

That is definately one thing Patterson had against him. Anyone that checked even a little would see he was exactly the kind of guy that WOULD fake such a thing. That is why he brought Gimlin with him, I suppose.

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#47    psyche101

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:00 PM

View Postfreetoroam, on 01 June 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

Did he mention anything about  John Chambers or any of the other guys mentioned in the articles below?

In fact, for years it has been "generally known" in the Hollywood special effects makeup community that Academy Award® winning makeup artist John Chambers fabricated the suit in the Patterson Bigfoot film.
In 1967 Chambers created the makeup for Planet of the Apes, which was released in 1968. The Patterson film was allegedly shot on October 20, 1967
I next heard about Chambers making the Patterson Bigfoot Suit in 1995, from effects makeup artist Dave Kindlon. Dave was working with his wife Colleen on an animatronic cat for Disney's remake of That Darn Cat at the time.
http://www.strangema...chambers17.html

Rumors circulated that the creature seen in the Patterson-Gimlin film was a suit designed by movie special effects expert John Chambers, who designed the ape costumes seen in many of the original Planet of the Apes films, and was reportedly an acquaintance of Ray Wallace and Bob Gimlin.
http://monsterkidcla...=1#.UapI7ZwhMok

There are also rumours that Patterson rented the suit off Chambers.



But Chambers was asked, and he himself said, No, I did not make that suit, I wish we had, we could have done it better.

This link explains the convoluted path that resulted in todays rumour and this linksys:

© CNI News Agency
Oscar-winning Hollywood special effects wizard, John "Planet of the Apes" Chambers, has been alleged by rumor for years to be responsible for creating a costume featured in the famous Bigfoot film footage shot by Roger Patterson in 1967. The rumor was masterminded allegedly by film director John Landis and Baker perpetrated the advancement of the rumor, which was totally false in order to promote Chambers reputation. This was then believed and subsequently noted to be supported by numerous artists within the special effects industry. However, new information from Brian Penikas, Creative Director for a company called Makeup and Monsters, puts to rest the theory that Chambers had any hand in the Patterson film. Penikas writes:
"Recently my crew and I were involved in a surprise 75th birthday tribute to Mr. Chambers, for which 9 of us recreated a parody skit re-enacting characters from the Ape movies. Mr. Chambers and the rest of the guests, many of whom were survivors of the Apes saga, were wonderfully surprised.
"I had only met Mr. Chambers briefly prior to the surprise party, and the opportunity to discuss the "suit" rumor was not high on my agenda. This past Saturday [October 25, 1997], however, the cast of the Apes birthday skit went back (sans costumes and makeup) to visit with Mr. Chambers and his wife... [This] was our chance to truly and finally confront Mr. Chambers about these rumors and stories about him being involved in the Patterson film project. "Mr. Chambers told his story, on video tape, to us to set the record straight. I now have pictures of the suit that Chambers did make and you can rest assured that it is NOT the famous Patterson Bigfoot. In fact, it's not a suit AT ALL. It is an 8 foot tall plaster dummy of actor Richard "Jaws" Keil that was built (in 4 days) as a prop for a travelling carnival to be billed as "Bigfoot's Body" or some such sideshow attraction, and was apparently displayed in a coffin. That's all. Just a solid, 800-pound prop. "Mr. Chambers did say (in regards to the Patterson footage) that he and his crew wished they had done it, because they would have done it differently. I believe his exact words were, jokingly, 'We could've one better.'

Edited by psyche101, 02 June 2013 - 11:00 PM.

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#48    psyche101

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:04 PM

View Postxsas, on 01 June 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

No doubt whatever he has to say skeptics will believe his every word. edited to add:

He is more believable because he is the only one with any physical proof and he did remake the suit which we were told was "impossible" and the BBC suit touted as an example that it could not be done. Not one of the proponents have ever offered more than an anecdote.

As I keep saying anyone who is willing to go to Geni The Conjurers magazine can find the proof this is a fake. Verne Langdon, who has an extensive background in costume design claims Phillip Morris left an apology there.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#49    psyche101

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:07 PM

View Postskookum, on 02 June 2013 - 06:32 AM, said:

I had an overdue library book once.  Am I considered a con man?

If you took it under false pretences and had no intention of returning it, then yes.

View PostDieChecker, on 02 June 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

So other then his Word, is there any evidence? A book or ledger with accounts, or receipts? A letter? A phone bill? Anything that could tie Morris to Patterson? It sounds like the same story he was telling back in 2003, except probably a lot more polished.


Consistency.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#50    psyche101

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Posted 02 June 2013 - 11:08 PM

View PostRapscallion, on 01 June 2013 - 06:54 AM, said:

Any pictures of one of his gorrila suits ?

Here is one he made in 2002 and beside it is the original Patty.

Posted Image

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#51    Insanity

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 12:25 AM

Tax returns and employee tax records are recommended to be kept for 7 and 4 years respectively.  Neither of these would have the evidence needed.

However;

View PostSakari, on 02 June 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

  • Business Ledgers and Other Key Documents. CPAs tend to be a conservative group and will often recommend that businesses keep their journal entries, profit and loss statements, financial statements, check registers and general business ledgers permanently. Similarly, major business documents, like annual reports, corporate by-laws and amendments, Board of Director information, annual meeting minutes and business formation documents, should also be retained on a permanent basis. Aside from supportive tax records, other documents such as accounts payable/receivable ledgers, invoices and expense reports should be retained for a minimum of 7 years.
Underline mine.

General ledgers are a company's main accounting records and are a complete record of financial transactions over the life of that company and have detail information concerning those transactions including; payee or payer, dates and amounts.

If Patterson had indeed purchased a suit from Morris, than that transaction was quite likely recorded and should exist.
It is possible, however unlikely, that Morris no longer has them for that time and even more unlikely that he never kept ledgers.

So while Morris has not provided this evidence, if he wished to support his claim, it probably could be made available.
While Morris went public with his story in 2002/3, he has stated that he started confiding his story privately, to whom we do not know, in the 1980s.  Other than his wife, I am not aware of anyone else speaking up to support him.

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#52    Sakari

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 12:56 AM

View PostInsanity, on 03 June 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Tax returns and employee tax records are recommended to be kept for 7 and 4 years respectively.  Neither of these would have the evidence needed.

However;

Underline mine.

General ledgers are a company's main accounting records and are a complete record of financial transactions over the life of that company and have detail information concerning those transactions including; payee or payer, dates and amounts.

If Patterson had indeed purchased a suit from Morris, than that transaction was quite likely recorded and should exist.
It is possible, however unlikely, that Morris no longer has them for that time and even more unlikely that he never kept ledgers.

So while Morris has not provided this evidence, if he wished to support his claim, it probably could be made available.
While Morris went public with his story in 2002/3, he has stated that he started confiding his story privately, to whom we do not know, in the 1980s.  Other than his wife, I am not aware of anyone else speaking up to support him.



He said he does not have reciepts from the 60's and 70's......

Email him and ask him, I really do not care either way. I happened to have a chance to talk to him, asked if people had questions, and not many did.

Now people want to debate **** I could of asked him?

Email him.......No offense, but come on :)

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#53    psyche101

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 01:35 AM

View PostInsanity, on 03 June 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

Tax returns and employee tax records are recommended to be kept for 7 and 4 years respectively.  Neither of these would have the evidence needed.

However;

Underline mine.

General ledgers are a company's main accounting records and are a complete record of financial transactions over the life of that company and have detail information concerning those transactions including; payee or payer, dates and amounts.

If Patterson had indeed purchased a suit from Morris, than that transaction was quite likely recorded and should exist.
It is possible, however unlikely, that Morris no longer has them for that time and even more unlikely that he never kept ledgers.

So while Morris has not provided this evidence, if he wished to support his claim, it probably could be made available.
While Morris went public with his story in 2002/3, he has stated that he started confiding his story privately, to whom we do not know, in the 1980s.  Other than his wife, I am not aware of anyone else speaking up to support him.


Even if he did keep this in a ledger, you would be hard pressed to find a business of similar stature that keeps a record longer than 25 years.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#54    psyche101

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 01:37 AM

View PostInsanity, on 02 June 2013 - 10:20 AM, said:

Ahem, I think everyone should be reminded that at least in the U.S., we are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.  An arrest warrant can indeed be issued over misdemeanors, which may be something as minor as a traffic violation, and are not exclusive to felonies.

While there was an arrest warrant issued on Patterson for Grand Larceny, which is over $400, and while often is classified as a felony, it is not always a felony.  We should also know that those charges were dropped and there was no trial let alone any conviction in a criminal court.  As to the reasons why it was issued, we should know that from 1964 to 1983, "a constitutionally adequate affidavit comprised exclusively or primarily of hearsay information had to have contained information suggesting to the examining magistrate that (1) the hearsay declarant supplying the information to the police was a credible person, and (2) that the hearsay declarant had a strong basis of knowledge for the alleged facts."  Since 1983, a constitutionally sufficient affidavit must support a conclusion by a reviewing magistrate that the "totality of the circumstances" suggest that there is a fair probability that the facts relied on by the police to find probable cause to arrest are in fact valid; the magistrate will balance "the relative weights of all the various indicia of reliability (and unreliability) attending an informant's tip."

If today a magistrate just needs a 'fair probability' that the facts are valid, what about prior to 1983?
I believe the date for the warrant's issue was October 17th, 1967, and for Patterson for not paying the bill on the long overdue camera, which does suggest he was low on money three days prior to his October 20th film.

Having an arrest warrant issued on a person does not automatically incriminate them.  People may wish to view Patterson as a con person or a fraud, but he is still entitled to the fact that the District Attorney decided to drop the charges and he was never tried let alone convicted of a crime.  We do not know why the charges were drop, but the reasons are likely in the court transcripts.



Yes it does not affect this case, but it does show Patterson is of dubious Character, such records do not exist with regards to Bob or Phillip. The case is wholly reliant on circumstantial evidence, so I do not see why this is a problem or not relevant?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#55    psyche101

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 01:44 AM

View Postskookum, on 02 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Well I would hardly call it we are making any progress.  

I beg to differ, but with Patty it is always one step forward 2 back.

View Postskookum, on 02 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe Morris can come up with an original costume of that era, he said he sold at least one a month.  All he has shown so far is a replica of the Bigfoot produced much later.

And what would that prove? It would only give Footers a new chance to scream "That does not look like Patty" not allowing for Patterson's modifications.

View Postskookum, on 02 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

Maybe then we could see how much it resembled it and how easy it would be modified.  

Each person is different, I doubt anyone can deny that. If you can capture Patterson's imagination and inspiration, as well as advice, which he did not only get from Phillip Morris, but Harvey Anderson as well, and use his tools that he owner, then sure, it's very likely you could recreate the suit perfectly with an audience.

View Postskookum, on 02 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

What happened to all his costumes?

Still selling them.

View Postskookum, on 02 June 2013 - 07:03 PM, said:

He said he recognised it as his costume, strange none of his customers who owned one didn't.

Most laughed at it and said they could do better, as I keep saying, if you want to look up Genie The Conjurers Magazine, Verne Langdon will help find the specifics. He has quite some experience in this area and openly laughs at the effort.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#56    DieChecker

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 03:35 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 02 June 2013 - 11:00 PM, said:

. I believe his exact words were, jokingly, 'We could've one better.'

If someone paid me a small amount of money and I made him a suit over a weekend, this is the same thing I'd say. IMHO, Chambers denying he made the suit is still suspect. Tons of people said they thought he did it, but then when it was revealed that some said it was probably low quality, Chambers came forward and actively denied he made it. All of which is totally logical if he made it, and also if he did not.

Only a record written somewhere could prove where the suit came from.

Maybe the Patterson estate has a check balance book from 1968 somewhere with a stub saying "$250 - Chambers". Or, "$450 - Morris". That would clear things up nicely. I wonder if banks keep copies of stuff going back that far? Probably not, that was all Pre-Computer, so it would mean a warehouse full of paper.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#57    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:01 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 02 June 2013 - 12:46 AM, said:

So other then his Word, is there any evidence?
Believers would have us accept people on their say-so only, why not debunkers?

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#58    DieChecker

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:16 AM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 03 June 2013 - 04:01 AM, said:

Believers would have us accept people on their say-so only, why not debunkers?
Good point, but I think the arguement is that the Skeptics are logical and consistant.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#59    psyche101

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:30 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 03 June 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

If someone paid me a small amount of money and I made him a suit over a weekend, this is the same thing I'd say. IMHO, Chambers denying he made the suit is still suspect. Tons of people said they thought he did it, but then when it was revealed that some said it was probably low quality, Chambers came forward and actively denied he made it. All of which is totally logical if he made it, and also if he did not.

Not quite that simple. It's a long and convoluted story, and one man - Mike McCraken Jr - says he has seen a photo of Chambers with the suit. His father (Sr) was a long time colleague of Chambers, so Mike's version got past the usual scrutiny on an appeal to authority.  

LINK

View PostDieChecker, on 03 June 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Only a record written somewhere could prove where the suit came from.

I honestly believe that is too much to ask for.

View PostDieChecker, on 03 June 2013 - 03:35 AM, said:

Maybe the Patterson estate has a check balance book from 1968 somewhere with a stub saying "$250 - Chambers". Or, "$450 - Morris". That would clear things up nicely. I wonder if banks keep copies of stuff going back that far? Probably not, that was all Pre-Computer, so it would mean a warehouse full of paper.

I am pretty sure the suit was bought mail order, so the post office might be a better bet, but better still would be that copy of Genie The Conjurers Magazine.

As you say, even banks probably do not have individual records that far back, so it seems a big ask from a costume company.

View PostDieChecker, on 03 June 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Good point, but I think the arguement is that the Skeptics are logical and consistant.

Yep, we are b******* like that.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#60    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 03 June 2013 - 04:53 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 03 June 2013 - 04:16 AM, said:

Good point, but I think the arguement is that the Skeptics are logical and consistant.
I'm not, I'm dismissive and high-handed.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.




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