Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Too much resistance against Monsanto in Europ


  • Please log in to reply
43 replies to this topic

#16    Wickian

Wickian

    Doppelganger

  • Member
  • 4,493 posts
  • Joined:11 May 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:USA

  • Save it for Queen Doppelpoppellus!

Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:49 AM

I demand mario-style chomper plants from Mosanto for pest control.  I guarantee their approval rating will go through the roof.


#17    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,967 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:15 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

If you know you don't seem to understands why the difference matters fundamentally.

Hardly hysteria, there are well respected geneticist who are sounding the alarm bells for exactly the reasons I have outlined previously;

http://occupymonsant...ngineered-food/
[...]
Right, and non-GM are 100% predictable and 100% safe...
The same (what you already said, and linked) applies to non-GM breeding. Lets see, potato hybrids produced by somatic hybridization (non-GM technique, as far as I know), started producing toxin demissidine not observed in the parent plants (Solanum tuberosum and Solanum brevidens; J.Laurila et al, Plant Sci., 118 (1996) 145-155), but no one gives a rats munch about it.

View PostBr Cornelius, on 04 June 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

[...]
Ex advocate for GMO's declares he was very wrong.



Br Cornelius
Had he seen Teosinte, and compared it with non-GMO corn, and then compared non-GMO vs GM corn before he come up with "mutants"? And horizontal gene transfer, apparently, became another scare argument. Lets see, again:

Quote

The importance of HGT was first recognized in pathogenic bacteria, but it plays an equal role in the evolution of non-pathogenic Bacteria and Archaea. Studies have also revealed the transfer of parasitic, selfish genes between the mitochondria of different plant and fungal species; genetic material was found to be exchanged between parasitic plants and their hosts; and many studies have identified genes that were transferred between pro- and eukaryotes, including transfers from symbionts to multicellular animals.
(emphasis mine; Horizontal Gene Transfer: Genomes in Flux, ed. M.B.Gogarten et al, Humana Press, 2009).

BTW, I don't find D.Suzuki unbiased: his scientific carrier ended-up in the end of '70s, and there are some pretty grey stains on him (some funny, some not).

PS Yeah, and another "very safe" delusion - "I want to save seeds"... Nothing can go wrong with this... Well, is vomiting and pooping farther than you can see, so to speak, beneficial, safe?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot... Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

Dolezol does not work on Lithuanians...

#18    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,967 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:19 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 05 June 2013 - 09:00 PM, said:

If yoiu do you go through great lengths to hide it.
Hide what? 10kg of unobtanium?

View Postquestionmark, on 05 June 2013 - 09:04 PM, said:

I maybe would be a little more open to GMO plants if they would bring an actual benefit, the reality of the story is that so far we are risking our health, and certainly the health of most soils where GMO is planted, for the benefit of one less task for the farmer (the weeding)... sorry, but that is way too little for running all the risks we run.
How do you know your non-GM food brought from, say, organic farmer is safer? You do realize, that natural poisons are as much effective as synthetic, don't you?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot... Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

Dolezol does not work on Lithuanians...

#19    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,500 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 12 June 2013 - 04:50 PM

No-one but yourself bmk has claimed that selective breeding is entirely safe - what has been claimed, and supported, is that is more safe and less likely to produce dangerous mutations with unpredictable outcomes.

Try not to load others with your straw men arguments.

What has been repeatedly said is that these products have been introduced through a cosy arrangement of self regulation by companies who have;
- sought exemption from any adverse consequences of their products
- stated that it is none of their business to ensure the safety of their products, that is the role of the FSA - who have delegated that responsibility back to the companies through self certification.

That smack of desperation and deep levels of corruption between the FSA and GMO producers.

Meanwhile more bad news for GMO companies;

Quote

(Reuters) - Pigs fed a diet of only genetically modified grain showed markedly higher stomach inflammation than pigs who dined on conventional feed, according to a new study by a team of Australian scientists and U.S. researchers.

http://www.reuters.c...N0EN0UR20130611

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 June 2013 - 05:24 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#20    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 39,089 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:05 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 12 June 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

Hide what? 10kg of unobtanium?

How do you know your non-GM food brought from, say, organic farmer is safer? You do realize, that natural poisons are as much effective as synthetic, don't you?

Depends on what you call effective... if by that you mean that they kill the target organism first and everything around it through accumulation you are right... most don't bio degrade like natural poisons.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#21    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,967 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:36 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

No-one but yourself bmk has claimed that selective breeding is entirely safe - what has been claimed, and supported, is that is more safe and less likely to produce dangerous mutations with unpredictable outcomes.[...]
Can you bring link to that post of mine?

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

[...]
Try not to load others with your straw men arguments.
[...]
Au contraire, anti-GMOist's arguments fall flat out, especially when GM is compared to other regarded as non-GM techiques.


View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 04:50 PM, said:

[...]
What has been repeatedly said is that these products have been introduced through a cosy arrangement of self regulation by companies who have;
- sought exemption from any adverse consequences of their products
- stated that it is none of their business to ensure the safety of their products, that is the role of the FSA - who have delegated that responsibility back to the companies through self certification.
[...]
Ok, I'll bite: you have day job (I presume). Any business can be attacked with any possible accusations. Lets say some folks decide your business is "evil" (based on fantasies). You'd be angry, your boss would be furious. Day after day, and your boss would come up (with your help?) with some irrational move, which would make anti-"your business folks" even more enthusiastic: "Heh, they deny that. They are guilty"...

All that anti-GMO hysteria just worsens situation.

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot... Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

Dolezol does not work on Lithuanians...

#22    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,967 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 12 June 2013 - 05:38 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 12 June 2013 - 05:05 PM, said:

Depends on what you call effective... if by that you mean that they kill the target organism first and everything around it through accumulation you are right... most don't bio degrade like natural poisons.
And some natural poisons degrades in your body while you lie in the casket...

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot... Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

Dolezol does not work on Lithuanians...

#23    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,500 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 12 June 2013 - 06:00 PM

Quote

Ok, I'll bite: you have day job (I presume). Any business can be attacked with any possible accusations. Lets say some folks decide your business is "evil" (based on fantasies). You'd be angry, your boss would be furious. Day after day, and your boss would come up (with your help?) with some irrational move, which would make anti-"your business folks" even more enthusiastic: "Heh, they deny that. They are guilty"...

Can you just address the point - why seek protection and why deny responsibility when the responsibility has clearly been delegated to the GMO companies.

Its not hysteria - its genuine concern regarding a very dodgy arrangement between business and regulator.

Its nice to see your concern for the likes of Monsanto - but there big boys and have shown themselves well able to look after themselves through aggressive programs of litigation.

What I would ask, as a first step, is long term feeding studies to be carried out by the FSA to standards which are agreeable to both GMO companies and campaigners. Then we might start to develop a dataset which is none controversial. I would say something around 3-5 years of pig studies before any new product is released onto the market. It would also be advisable to conduct studies on ruminants to settle the controversy regarding deaths through GMO residue feedings in India.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 12 June 2013 - 06:06 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#24    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,967 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 12 June 2013 - 07:31 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

Can you just address the point - why seek protection and why deny responsibility when the responsibility has clearly been delegated to the GMO companies.
[...]
The same irrational move your boss/you in hypothetical situation would behave.

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

[...]
Its not hysteria - its genuine concern regarding a very dodgy arrangement between business and regulator.
[...]
Not hysteria? When "Small amount will make you sick", "Genetically modified vitamin C", etc. Heck, look in the naturalnews crapsite for mind boggling nonsense...

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

[...]
Its nice to see your concern for the likes of Monsanto - but there big boys and have shown themselves well able to look after themselves through aggressive programs of litigation.
[...]
Yeah, I'm concerned, because its a witch hunt. And I don't give a **** about Monsanto, Dickanto, whatever name in particular, I see it as a blind assault on science.

Heh, quite interesting, you are opposing climate change deniers - their holy grail is "Don't rush things, we need more research, etc" (Ok, you can see it as straw grasping...)

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 06:00 PM, said:

[...]
What I would ask, as a first step, is long term feeding studies to be carried out by the FSA to standards which are agreeable to both GMO companies and campaigners. Then we might start to develop a dataset which is none controversial. I would say something around 3-5 years of pig studies before any new product is released onto the market. It would also be advisable to conduct studies on ruminants to settle the controversy regarding deaths through GMO residue feedings in India.
[...]
"Pig studies"?! Reported to PITA. Your'e toasted...
On the serious note, GM foods go through more rigorous tests than any other non-GM foods. You want more? But how about other non-GM foods? Mutation breeding offsprings?

BTW, tried to look into journal mentioned by Reuters. Its kinda similar to Journal of Scientific Exploration, i.e.
"I saw alien"
"I believe you, your paper accepted"...

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot... Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

Dolezol does not work on Lithuanians...

#25    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,500 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:25 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 12 June 2013 - 07:31 PM, said:

The same irrational move your boss/you in hypothetical situation would behave.

Not hysteria? When "Small amount will make you sick", "Genetically modified vitamin C", etc. Heck, look in the naturalnews crapsite for mind boggling nonsense...

Yeah, I'm concerned, because its a witch hunt. And I don't give a **** about Monsanto, Dickanto, whatever name in particular, I see it as a blind assault on science.

Heh, quite interesting, you are opposing climate change deniers - their holy grail is "Don't rush things, we need more research, etc" (Ok, you can see it as straw grasping...)

"Pig studies"?! Reported to PITA. Your'e toasted...
On the serious note, GM foods go through more rigorous tests than any other non-GM foods. You want more? But how about other non-GM foods? Mutation breeding offsprings?

BTW, tried to look into journal mentioned by Reuters. Its kinda similar to Journal of Scientific Exploration, i.e.
"I saw alien"
"I believe you, your paper accepted"...
Nice, but your assault on science bullcrap- ain't impressing anyone. I am a trained scientist and I can smell out the difference between good and bad science. Science bent to the financial will of major corporations has repeatedly shown itself to be the most corruptible science.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#26    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 39,089 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 12 June 2013 - 08:33 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 12 June 2013 - 05:38 PM, said:

And some natural poisons degrades in your body while you lie in the casket...

So you claim it is preferable to also poison the worm trying to eat the coffin's content, and the the bird that eats the worm and then another human that eats the bird? No wonder you are cheering and applauding poisoning soils for no real gain.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me

#27    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,967 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 12 June 2013 - 08:25 PM, said:

Nice, but your assault on science bullcrap- ain't impressing anyone. I am a trained scientist and I can smell out the difference between good and bad science. Science bent to the financial will of major corporations has repeatedly shown itself to be the most corruptible science.

Br Cornelius
Wait... What?! You are basing your conclusions on smell? How about employing critical thinking, and not smell, or emotions?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot... Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

Dolezol does not work on Lithuanians...

#28    bmk1245

bmk1245

    puny village idiot

  • Member
  • 4,967 posts
  • Joined:16 Aug 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Vilnius, Lithuania

Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:54 AM

View Postquestionmark, on 12 June 2013 - 08:33 PM, said:

So you claim it is preferable to also poison the worm trying to eat the coffin's content, and the the bird that eats the worm and then another human that eats the bird? No wonder you are cheering and applauding poisoning soils for no real gain.
Well, worms will adapt.
BTW, is copper sulfate degradable? No? Why then organic farmers still cling to this atrocious substance?
And what about non-GM intensive farming? Is it better (in the sense of "bad chemicals") than GM farming?

Arguing with fool is like playing chess with pigeon: he will scatter pieces, peck King's crown, crap on bishop, and fly away bragging how he won the game... (heard once, author unknown).
Zhoom! What was that? That was your life, Mate! Oh, that was quick. Do I get another? Sorry, Mate. That's your lot... Basil Fawlty (John Cleese).
If yesterday you would have stood up proud. Then why tonight have you thrown in with the stoning crowd? (Cradle of Filth)

Dolezol does not work on Lithuanians...

#29    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 13,500 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:06 AM

BMK,
At this stage I am going to have to conclude that you have worked on a GMO crop project which was knocked back.
You haven't addressed a single one of the pertinent deep scientific issues associated with a technology which we only just barely understand, which is why I think that my fears are very justified.

Here is a list of some of the fundamental scientific issues which you have avoided addressing in all of your responses;

Quote

Section 2: Gene insertion disrupts the DNA and can create unpredictable health problems
2.2 Growing GM crops using tissue culture can create hundreds or thousands of DNA mutations
1. The process of growing plant cells into GM plants may create hundreds or thousands of mutations throughout the genome.
2. While a change in a single base pair may have serious consequences, widespread changes in the genome can have multiple, interacting effects.
3. Most scientists working in the field are unaware of the extent of these mutations, and no studies have examined genome-wide changes in commercialized GM plants.
2.4 The promoter may accidentally switch on harmful genes
1. Promoters are switches that turn on genes.
2. The promoter used in nearly all GM crops is designed to permanently turn on the foreign gene at high output.
3. Although scientists had claimed that the promoter would only turn on the foreign gene, it can accidentally turn on other natural plant genes—permanently.
4. These genes may overproduce an allergen, toxin, carcinogen or antinutrient, or regulators that block other genes.
2.6 The promoter might create genetic instability and mutations
1. Evidence suggests that the CaMV promoter, used in most GM foods, containsa recombination hotspot.
2. If confirmed, this might result in breakup and recombination of the gene sequence.
3. This instability of the inserted gene material might create unpredicted effects.
2.8 Novel RNA may be harmful to humans and their offspring
1. Small RNA sequences can regulate gene expression, most commonly by silencing genes.
2. RNA is stable, survives digestion and can impact gene expression in mammals that ingest it.
3. The impact can be passed on to future generations.
4. Genetic modification introduces new DNA combinations and mutations, which increase the likelihood that harmful regulatory RNA will be accidentally produced.
2.10 Changes in proteins can alter thousands of natural chemicals in plants, increasing toxins or reducing phytonutrients
1. Plants produce thousands of chemicals which, if ingested, may fight disease, influence behavior or be toxic.
2. The genome changes described in this section can alter the composition and concentration of these chemicals.
3. GM soybeans, for example, produce less cancer-fighting isoflavones.
4. Most GM-induced changes in these natural products go undetected.
2.11 GM crops have altered levels of nutrients and toxins
1. Numerous studies on GMOs reveal unintended changes in nutrients, toxins, allergens and small molecule products of metabolism.
2. These demonstrate the risks associated with unintended changes that occur due to genetic engineering.
3. Safety assessments are not adequate to guard against potential health risks associated with these changes.
http://responsiblete...th-risks/2notes

No one here has denied that traditional selective breeding can lead to some of the same issues, but to a much smaller degree, but that seems to be the only issue you want discussed.

And as Questionmark has repeatedly pointed out (and you have ignored) the crops simply do not deliver on their claimed benefits. A comprehensive report from the Union of Concerned Scientists showing how they have failed to meet expectations in increased yields;

http://www.ucsusa.or...re-to-yield.pdf



Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 13 June 2013 - 09:29 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#30    questionmark

questionmark

    Cinicus Magnus

  • Member
  • 39,089 posts
  • Joined:26 Jun 2007
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Greece and Des Moines, IA

  • In a flat world there is an explanation to everything.

Posted 13 June 2013 - 12:47 PM

View Postbmk1245, on 13 June 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

Well, worms will adapt.

So, you are promoting a non-solution that will be innefective because the target organisms adapt and the poison remains? Good one

View Postbmk1245, on 13 June 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

BTW, is copper sulfate degradable? No? Why then organic farmers still cling to this atrocious substance?

copper sulfate is a natural salt, and while I am not advocating using it ton-wise on crops the fact remains that it will be washed out and will cause no further damage.

View Postbmk1245, on 13 June 2013 - 08:54 AM, said:

And what about non-GM intensive farming? Is it better (in the sense of "bad chemicals") than GM farming?

You seem to be the only one here trying to make better worse comparisons, all that is not processable by the environment is wrong, no matter if GM or abusive use of chemicals. And that it is possible to obtain adequate harvest with neither has also been amply demonstrated. And it is not like there is only resistance against GM but there is just as much resistance against over fertilizing, pesticides and herbicides.

A skeptic is a well informed believer and a pessimist a well informed optimist
The most dangerous views of the world are from those who have never seen it. ~ Alexander v. Humboldt
If you want to bulls**t me please do it so that it takes me more than a minute to find out

about me




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users