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`ufology` today is a shambles


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#31    psyche101

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:04 AM

View Postbee, on 06 June 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Oh I'm sorry...I didn't realise this was a NICE thread.

Well now you know!

I thought it was uncalled for to be honest, what was so offensive that you would want a new person to leave?

View Postbee, on 06 June 2013 - 11:25 PM, said:

Please do carry on with all the slagging off nice posts, everyone.


B)


:P


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Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#32    Draco20

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:13 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 06 June 2013 - 10:49 PM, said:

Nah, the AA stuff is bunkum too. Prepare to be disappointed. Sorry about that. The one case I have never resolved personally is Portage County, do you know of that case?

There are still some very interesting and rationally unexplicable cases like the Portage County or the Rendlesham Forest. I think that is in part why we are still talking seriously about UFOs, Aliens and beings from other dimensions because of these few very intriguing cases despite all the junks available online and on TV.

Edited by sam_comm, 07 June 2013 - 12:19 AM.


#33    psyche101

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:32 AM

View Postscowl, on 06 June 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Leslie Kean wrote a book? I've only read articles she's written.

LINK - UFO book based on questionable foundation

I find she tries to look like she has a skeptical outlook, but fails.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#34    scowl

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:56 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 07 June 2013 - 12:32 AM, said:

LINK - UFO book based on questionable foundation

I find she tries to look like she has a skeptical outlook, but fails.

And right here:

http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0307717089

Thanks!

EDIT: Looks like it's just testimony. I've heard enough of that over the decades.

Edited by scowl, 07 June 2013 - 12:57 AM.


#35    JesseCuster

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 02:07 AM

View PostSpacenut56, on 06 June 2013 - 08:16 PM, said:

A mind is like a parachute, to function it must be open.
But it doesn't function by mere fact of being open. An open mind is like an open parachute in the sense that you need to  have them open in the right place and time in order to make use of them.

A mind is no more useful by being "open" than a parachute is useful by merely being "open".  You can walk into a brick wall with an "open" parachute just like you can walk into idiotic dangerous beliefs with an "open" mind.

"The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool." - Richard P. Feynman

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#36    Oppono Astos

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 02:21 AM

View Postsam_comm, on 07 June 2013 - 12:13 AM, said:

There are still some very interesting and rationally unexplicable cases like the Portage County or the Rendlesham Forest. I think that is in part why we are still talking seriously about UFOs, Aliens and beings from other dimensions because of these few very intriguing cases despite all the junks available online and on TV.
If you think that Rendlesham is inexplicable you really need to browse the threads here on that case

Who is the skeptic: the realist who won't accept belief, or the believer who won't accept reality?

#37    HeyWhatsUpWithAirlineFood

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 03:56 AM

View PostScudbuster, on 06 June 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

I would estimate that 95% all the UFO related "stuff" is BS in one form or other. It's that remaining 5% that is interesting.

So, look at this way, and I think you'll feel "liberated".....and going forward only a few rare occurrences might deserve your attention.

Completely agreed here.

The way I see it, half of all reported UFO cases are most likely hoaxed or a product of the mind. 45% could be attributable to Earthly phenomenae (electromagnetic activity, aircraft, etc.), and the last five percent are usually debatable to an extent, but they don't ever seem to arrive upon the extraterrestrial conclusion without a subtle logical fallacy showing up somewhere along the line. Most modern "ufologists" seem to blindly accept the alien case in some situations as the truth, where a compellingly attractive, yet nonexistent or unattainable piece of evidence has been offered to suggest it so. Promises of photographs, videos, even recordings could be promised, but not delivered for whatever reason. "Yeah, government cover-up, Eisenhower, MJ12, blah blah."

Golden rule:
Don't trust a case to be true unless physical evidence has been obtained that blatantly illustrates the sighting as it happened. There's just too much opportunity for a hoax involved without some sort of documentation of the sighting. UFOlogy these days seems to call almost anything evidence of an alien visitation, including plain spoken word. It's sad.

Edited by rvaun, 07 June 2013 - 03:57 AM.

Pseudoscience has no place in reality

#38    quillius

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:25 AM

granted (especially in recent years) that many of the current problems are caused by people who believe everything and anything. However I think we are fooling oursleves if we think this mess has arisen because of them. I personally must put some blame back onto those with more power. Those that chose/were ordered  to explain away the phenomenon as x, y or z....at whatever cost.....

5 witnesses say they saw an object 20 ft from the ground hovering.......the powers that be come and explain that it was just Venus that the witnesses saw. These five witnesses now look crazy/stupid to have mistaken Venus for anything else.

and so it goes on.

I think a cover up was instigated by the 'Government' many years ago. Did they think it was ET? did they know it was ET? who knows, all I am quite certian about is that secrecy and shenanigans was the prime directive......this muddied the water enough to cast a shadow over the subject for a long time.

So no I dont think its down to 'believers' , I dont think they started this mess, ok they may fuel it now but who made sure that water was muddy from the start? and more importantly why?


#39    quillius

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:40 AM

View PostSky Scanner, on 06 June 2013 - 03:07 PM, said:

When you say "the current state of ufology is a disgrace", when you think about it it's your thinking and reasoning that has changed, which would mean it's always been a disgrace. Don't get me wrong, i'm not slating the subject, it's still one of my favorite subjects, but the credibility problem it suffers from, is the same credibility problem it has always suffered from - to many charlatans, and to many people who because they have an opinion that we have been visited then they will support any footage that comes to light, simply because it fits what they believe.

People always talk about the lack of credible evidence within the subject, I guess that is true to an extent, but it's not the real problem imo...evidence is just evidence, regardless of what it points to (or not) it just is what it is....the real problem is some of the people this subject seems to attract.

Hey Sky, been a while buddy...hope you are well.

I dont fully agree here. The main part I question is the bolded above, I dont think this was always the case, I mean footage many years ago was very hard to come by let alone easily accesible for many people to jump on the bandwagon. Where as today with the internet this has become possible and has meant a new avalanche of mud has been thrown in to the equation. I just dont see how the same can be said for the periods of say 1940-1960.

So even if ones mindset or way of thinking has changed, this doesnt mean that 'ufology' was always the same IMO.


#40    TSS

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:36 AM

View Postquillius, on 07 June 2013 - 08:40 AM, said:

Hey Sky, been a while buddy...hope you are well.

I dont fully agree here. The main part I question is the bolded above, I dont think this was always the case, I mean footage many years ago was very hard to come by let alone easily accesible for many people to jump on the bandwagon. Where as today with the internet this has become possible and has meant a new avalanche of mud has been thrown in to the equation. I just dont see how the same can be said for the periods of say 1940-1960.

So even if ones mindset or way of thinking has changed, this doesnt mean that 'ufology' was always the same IMO.

Hello mate, i'm very well thanks - had a day at the TT on wednesday, so i'm burnt to a crisp at the moment, but what a day, still buzzing now! ;) Hope you and yours are good and fighting fit :tu:

You make a good point actually, which I hadn't considered. The 40's to 60's era is an intriguing one, but i'd have to be honest and say i've never looked far enough into that side to say whether there is a link between sighting and the public perception etc....i.e I'd need to compile a data base of sightings and see if one flows into another either through the people involved or the media reporting of it.

There has always been a few different elements to this subject that get merged into one muddy pool anyway imo. For a start, many sightings were just that, reports, that were then seized upon by people who think they know what the 'unidentified' part actually is, and then used to make a bigger picture in support of their theory....Tim Good's original of 'Above Top Secret' is packed full of cases whereby the person who makes the report isn't speculating, just reporting, a third party then speculates to make the connection. I think that method is amplified to extraodinary levels now days.

My fb feed gets updates from people who post ufo footage, you'll get some 20sec clip of a blur in the background with the title 'Aliens?'...and it'll get 50 or so likes immediately...and if you dare (as I once did) to point out that I have some similiar footage through a telescope of a bug that ruined a nights imaging for me then you get abuse from everywhere, I was actually reported by this numpty as being a 'disinfo agent' and should be removed from fb.

So you've made me rethink and reword my original stance - the subject doesn't have a credibility issue (it is what it is etc)...many many people within it though most certainly do though...as to whether that has always been applicable though, not sure, i've never studied that aspect closely enough to say :tu:

Edited by Sky Scanner, 07 June 2013 - 10:38 AM.


#41    quillius

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 10:52 AM

View PostSky Scanner, on 07 June 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Hello mate, i'm very well thanks - had a day at the TT on wednesday, so i'm burnt to a crisp at the moment, but what a day, still buzzing now! ;) Hope you and yours are good and fighting fit :tu:

You make a good point actually, which I hadn't considered. The 40's to 60's era is an intriguing one, but i'd have to be honest and say i've never looked far enough into that side to say whether there is a link between sighting and the public perception etc....i.e I'd need to compile a data base of sightings and see if one flows into another either through the people involved or the media reporting of it.

There has always been a few different elements to this subject that get merged into one muddy pool anyway imo. For a start, many sightings were just that, reports, that were then seized upon by people who think they know what the 'unidentified' part actually is, and then used to make a bigger picture in support of their theory....Tim Good's original of 'Above Top Secret' is packed full of cases whereby the person who makes the report isn't speculating, just reporting, a third party then speculates to make the connection. I think that method is amplified to extraodinary levels now days.

My fb feed gets updates from people who post ufo footage, you'll get some 20sec clip of a blur in the background with the title 'Aliens?'...and it'll get 50 or so likes immediately...and if you dare (as I once did) to point out that I have some similiar footage through a telescope of a bug that ruined a nights imaging for me then you get abuse from everywhere, I was actually reported by this numpty as being a 'disinfo agent' and should be removed from fb.

So you've made me rethink and reword my original stance - the subject doesn't have a credibility issue (it is what it is etc)...many many people within it though most certainly do though...as to whether that has always been applicable though, not sure, i've never studied that aspect closely enough to say :tu:

glad to hear you had a good time :)  all is fine my end thanks.

Your fb comment made me think of an interesting experiment (although one we couldnt possibly carry out).

If we had a clip (just one of these blurbs you mentioned above that recieved all the 'likes'. If we could then show it to say 1000 random people from all over the world with a variety of backgrounds. And then somehow do the same in 1940, it would be interesting to compare these results, not only measuring what they think it is but also to note the initial reaction of these people.

I strongly feel that today people are not threatened as much by UFOs/ET as they may have been in say 1940. I wonder what has changed in this time?

is there less or more stigma surrounding the subject than there was 60 years ago?


#42    Papagiorgio

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:39 PM

View Postseeder, on 06 June 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

I, and a few others here, have discussed - at great length - the AA series, and the self proclaimed experts BS. 'We' have literally ripped them apart and exposed their lies and qualifications. That show is  to be taken no more seriously than Star Trek or the Muppets...

heres a total debunk of the AA series



.
I think you underestimate how serious some people take Star Trek.
And the Muppets rule.

I'm just saying.

#43    mcrom901

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 04:34 PM

View Postquillius, on 07 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

I strongly feel that today people are not threatened as much by UFOs/ET as they may have been in say 1940. I wonder what has changed in this time?

the zoo hypothesis as an ad hoc to the eth? the 'lights' seem harmless, so some believe that our et brethren are benevolent, some of the paranoid generals back in day must have concluded that they're a threat because planes were lost whilst scrambled... then we have the abductees on the other hand, which is a recent subset, who believe that the greys/reptilians are out to get us... add to that cattle mutilations... then you have the new age prophets who claim that the aliens are farming our 'souls'... and not to forget the christians who believe that it's all the work of the devil... not to forget that some nuts believe that the andromedans and the dracos are battling out for us... :unsure2:


#44    Farmer77

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:41 PM

You make some valid points but you don't NEED those morons! I would like to invite you to Arizona, come spend a week or two skywatching in the desert and you're interest in UFO's will totally be reignited. You'll probably even get your own grainy youtube video LOL

I don't suffer from insanity, I rather enjoy it

#45    willowdreams

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Posted 07 June 2013 - 05:43 PM

View Postquillius, on 07 June 2013 - 10:52 AM, said:

glad to hear you had a good time :)  all is fine my end thanks.

Your fb comment made me think of an interesting experiment (although one we couldnt possibly carry out).

If we had a clip (just one of these blurbs you mentioned above that recieved all the 'likes'. If we could then show it to say 1000 random people from all over the world with a variety of backgrounds. And then somehow do the same in 1940, it would be interesting to compare these results, not only measuring what they think it is but also to note the initial reaction of these people.

I strongly feel that today people are not threatened as much by UFOs/ET as they may have been in say 1940. I wonder what has changed in this time?

is there less or more stigma surrounding the subject than there was 60 years ago?

people are better educated today.  I mean, yes, the nut jobs out there became more know in media frenzy, and that really makes eyes roll, plus you have to admit, tv shows like AA makes most pple laugh out right.

However, i do like that these people are out there, the silliness of these people make others THINK, not all, but the majority will then go online and such, and actually look things up.

People now know that we know very little about anything. They know that we may not understand what the lights are, so therefore they are unidentified but in a few yrs time, to maybe our grandchildrens time, we may learn something new about earth and know what they are.

Or our military will release new things that become public knowledge and pple will know it was something to do with that.

If you go to places though where people do not have ready access to the internet, where superstition still rules their lives.. (and there are places like this), then they may be more readily abled to get 'angst' up about things, and more likely to believe some far fetched alien theories.

Keep in mind, i am talking 'broadly' about people, there are highly educated people who are will allow themselves to become involved in all the alien hoopla, never even once seriously saying 'yes, i know in reality that if aliens are here our govenmnt is powerless to keep them from us if they want us to know about them', heh you know, our government really does a p*** poor job at hiding much of anything from us, yet somehow we are to believe they keep aliens from us..

wow.

But anyways. That is my idea/take on it.

the more we know scientifically, then the less we know about things, because we know the more we learn the more there is to learn.. which means most likely many things can be explained.. just not right now. This goes for paranormal like stuff too.

Mostly we just need to get our head out of the sand and accept the fact.. if aliens want us to know about them, nothing will stop them from exposing themselves to everyone. if aliens do not want us to know about them, then oh well, we won't know.

Our government can do jack crap about any of it.

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