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Edward Snowden NSA whistleblower


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#91    Gromdor

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:20 AM

The more I read about this guy, the more I am leaning towards traitor.  1) He didn't get this information from the normal course of his job. He had to go out of his way and get documents and information that he wasn't even supposed to handle.
2) He revealed NSA hacking operations in China.
3) He fled to Hong Kong (China) where the Chinese government is considering denying extradition.


#92    Wickian

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:26 AM

Giving out information about civilian spying should never be considered a bad thing.  Knowing it's happening and having proof it's happening are two different things.

When it comes down to it, the government is made out of people, and just like us they don't trust anything they can't control.  We all would like nothing more than to know exactly what the government is up to, we don't have to power to do that though.  The government however does, so they make it their business to know as much as possible about what all of us are doing.


#93    Orcseeker

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:26 AM

View PostGromdor, on 15 June 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

The more I read about this guy, the more I am leaning towards traitor.  1) He didn't get this information from the normal course of his job. He had to go out of his way and get documents and information that he wasn't even supposed to handle.
                                                                                                                 2) He revealed NSA hacking operations in China.
                                                                                                                 3) He fled to Hong Kong (China) where the Chinese government is considering denying extradition.

When people start labelling someone a traitor after they have exposed injustices against the populace of their own nation (assuming you are a US citizen). You know something is wrong.


#94    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:31 AM

View PostThe world needs you, on 14 June 2013 - 02:22 PM, said:

Going to agree here but equally we should be clear on what the message is, what exactly do these programs mean, without prematurely and emotionally jumping to conclusions of conspiracy theory and claims or complaints of comparing us to dictatorship.

Life is so nice here compared to other countries, we could and should be helping them be more like us instead of seeing boogeymen behind every corner here. Creating problems in our mind.

(We also have more concrete and substantial problems here like our failing infrastructure and companies requiring regulation.)

The tendency to think conspiracy theory and see it in everything is like the old adage of when you have a hammer everything begins to look like nails. Even non-problems...

This is where we might disagree but generally you make a great and fair point.

In either case this thread is about the messenger Snowden. That is the main focus here. Plenty of other threads devoted to the message and exploring what elements of it are true. Off the bat some of what Snowden is saying does not square evenly.

His message has alarmist elements which have yet to be verified as accurate especially when claiming one private contractor has (legal) access to all our information. That is not the way the system is designed.

I agree with some of your points. There's no doubt that we have it better than people in many other countries. I'm grateful and thankful for that. I'm troubled by certain trends, though. It's not just one thing. It's a combination of things. I appreciate your comment on unwarranted conspiracy theories. However, the inescapable conclusion is that there are facts and truth to be found in some of them. Our country is turning into a security state. Our rights are being violated in the name of safety and the so-called war on terrorism. 9/11 is used as an excuse to ignore the Constitution. I see examples in the news each day, and I'm not referring to paranoid web sites. This frog feels the incremental rises in temperature, and I refuse to be fried in the pan. The State wants complete and total control and knowledge of our lives. Their surveillance of citizens is excessive, and they treat us like criminals with their unconstitutional acts, and it has to change. If not, future generations of Americans will curse us for our treason against ourselves.

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#95    Gromdor

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:35 AM

I guess what I am trying to say is I think he is a Chinese spy. And as a spy, exposing injustices against a population that he is working against to stir them up and possibly overthrow their government would be part of his job.


#96    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 02:43 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 15 June 2013 - 01:34 AM, said:

Obama spoke to say that the patriot act was inflicting upon citizens rights. This recent event is an extension of the patriot act. He lied.

Exposing lies going back on your oath?

This John Bolton is producing the most ignorant argument. Serve the country. Not the corrupted. Number two is just unfounded speculation. Anyone who actually buys this crap are the types of people who support those that are responsible with the degradation of a nation.

Bolton is a predictable neoconservative, eager to employ propaganda to further his goals. One would have to be a war-mongering zealot to support interventionism after the last decade of heavy losses of blood and treasure. Yet, here we go again with aid to the rebels, some of whom are linked to Al Qaeda, fighting Assad. Both sides are comprised of homicidal authoritarians, so maybe we should just stick to humanitarian aid in this one. Why send money and weapons to people who are members of a group that murdered thousands of Americans? Will they suddenly "see the light" when they seize the government of Syria? That hasn't been the pattern. I have little hope that our politicians will ever regain their senses as they embrace insane actions that failed in the *very* recent past.

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#97    Raptor Witness

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 03:28 AM

View PostGromdor, on 15 June 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

I guess what I am trying to say is I think he is a Chinese spy. And as a spy, exposing injustices against a population that he is working against to stir them up and possibly overthrow their government would be part of his job.
It's an interesting argument, but look who's making that argument to cover their own azzes. I'm not buying it, at least not yet.

You've got to remember also, he was privy to a lot of information about nations, and their relative safety. He carefully chose a place where he felt he could be safe, and I have to admit, I wouldn't have felt safe in Latin America, as Mr. Julian Assange recommended. The same is true for Russia. Who would want to be Putin's lap dog?

He was smart, and I don't think he'll give up any secrets that he doesn't have to. To do so would contradict his mission. The only caveat to this, might be the curious timing of his revelations, which coincided with the meeting that President Obama had with the Dear Leader of the PRC in Palm Springs. That bothers me a little bit, unless you consider that the timing itself, would in theory, be likely be enough to buy his safety without further revelations. The timing alone, could buy his freedom in China, because it's powerful propaganda without giving away unnecessary secrets.

That's my hope, but who knows the PRC might water board him in the tradition of the U.S., or put him naked in a dark room full of insects.

Edited by Raptor Witness, 15 June 2013 - 03:31 AM.

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#98    Orcseeker

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:29 AM

View PostGromdor, on 15 June 2013 - 02:35 AM, said:

I guess what I am trying to say is I think he is a Chinese spy. And as a spy, exposing injustices against a population that he is working against to stir them up and possibly overthrow their government would be part of his job.

Look at what is happening to the US and tell me most of the government shouldn't be replaced. Would China want the US to be a better place?


#99    Babe Ruth

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 01:41 PM

View PostGromdor, on 15 June 2013 - 02:20 AM, said:

The more I read about this guy, the more I am leaning towards traitor.  1) He didn't get this information from the normal course of his job. He had to go out of his way and get documents and information that he wasn't even supposed to handle.
2) He revealed NSA hacking operations in China.
3) He fled to Hong Kong (China) where the Chinese government is considering denying extradition.

Are you suggesting that revealing crimes by the government against the US Constitution is treason?  I hope not, but it seems that's the corner you're in right now?

In part, the Fourth Amendment says that "...no Warrant shall issue, but upon probable cause"

How can Prism possibly comply with that requirement?  It does not, and the government has been defying that law for years.  Those of us who support ACLU have been pointing that out since the illegitimate Unpatriot Act came into being.


#100    Gromdor

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 04:46 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 15 June 2013 - 01:41 PM, said:

Are you suggesting that revealing crimes by the government against the US Constitution is treason?  I hope not, but it seems that's the corner you're in right now?

In part, the Fourth Amendment says that "...no Warrant shall issue, but upon probable cause"

How can Prism possibly comply with that requirement?  It does not, and the government has been defying that law for years.  Those of us who support ACLU have been pointing that out since the illegitimate Unpatriot Act came into being.

For that reason, I initially thought he was a hero.  However, he is revealing so much more.  Revealing how the US is hacking into router hubs in China has a lot to do with national security and intelligence gathering but very little to do with the constitution.  Compound that with the fact that he took all this information to Hong Kong(China).

Let me put it another way.  You were saying how crappy and unconstitutional all the stuff the US did to spy on us is.  Well, Snowden has all the information on how and what we did and brought it over to the Chinese.  So instead of the US doing all the snooping, it could very well be the Chinese next.  That's the treason part.


#101    Jessica Christ

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 05:41 PM

Still a possibility that Snowden was blackmailed by the Chinese.

In that case he might be a red pawn instead of a black or white knight, chess analogy and all.


#102    Babe Ruth

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 06:49 PM

Gromdor

What Snowden has done is take a conscientious stand.  NYT writes today that according to one woman who knew him, he underwent a 'crisis of conscience' several years ago.  That was after he had already worked  within the system and saw how wrong it was.  He saw something, and he said something, in the very highest and most noble way.

What he's done is interrupt in some strange way, a very big driver in the GWOT, and the GWOT is a fraud of epic proportions.

I disagree on the treason point, as I'm sure you've guessed. :tu:

The Chinese government already knew how to spy on its people--nothing we could show them.

I see him as the Daniel Ellsberg of this generation, him and Bradley both.


#103    Jessica Christ

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 12:45 PM

Project Echelon was already in place and we already knew about it

Quote

*snip*

There are two major problems with Snowden's plan.

One is small. One is big.

The small problem with Snowden's plan is that the information contained in his documents appears to be false or incomplete. They said that PRISM gave the NSA direct access to the servers of companies like Google and Facebook. That's not true.

The big problem with Snowden's plan to shock the American public into an anti-surveillance revolution is that the documents he leaked contained only old news.

There is a report out today from the AP saying that it has been "known for years," that there is a program which "copies Internet traffic as it enters and leaves the United States, then routes it to the NSA for analysis."

In fact, the American public has known that the NSA has extensive Internet-spying programs since 2000.

That's when "60 Minutes" reported: "If you made a phone call today or sent an e-mail to a friend, there's a good chance what you said or wrote was captured and screened by the country's largest intelligence agency."

The "60 Minutes" report exposed the existence of a program called Echelon, through which the governments of Canada, Great Britain, Australia and New Zealand worked in coordination to spy on each other's citizens on the Internet.

If you read the transcript from that "60 Minutes" episode, Echelon sounds like a more invasive program than PRISM.

"60 Minutes" is a massively popular news program. Ten million, sometimes 20 million people, watch it every Sunday. Even more watched it back in 2000.

And yet, the American public reacted to "60 Minutes'" expose with a yawn.

Since Snowden's leaks, many people have passed around an old quote from Benjamin Franklin.

It reads: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

It turns out the American public disagrees with Benjamin Franklin on this count.

We are willing to trade a little online liberty for a little offline security.

This is not irrational. We do not live in the world as described by George Orwell's book, "1984."  In "1984" the government uses a fake war as an excuse to spy on its people. In our world, the war is real. It kills people at marathons, in office buildings, and on bases in Texas.

The point is this.

If any report on the NSA's Internet-spying powers was going to shock the American public into action, it was that "60 Minutes" report 13 years ago.
It did not.

Neither did a 2005 report from The New York Times about how the NSA monitors the Internet's fiber optic cables.

Nor did former AT&T technician Mark Klein's 2006 revelation that the NSA installed a computer at a San Francisco switching center.

And so, the sad, final truth is this.

If, back before he dropped out of high school, 16-year-old Edward Snowden had just managed to see that "60 Minutes" report and witness the collective yawn that followed, he might have, 13 years later, decided that the American public would never share his fear of surveillance.

*snip*

If Edward Snowden Had Watched '60 Minutes' In High School He Could Still Be Living In Hawaii With His Beautiful Girlfriend


Indeed, Project Echelon was already in place and we already knew about it. Even before Snowden we would joke in the U-M chat room after saying certain words, in innocuous way, that those words might get red flagged by Project Echelon and the familiar knock of government agents was sure to ensue.

Edited by The world needs you, 16 June 2013 - 01:05 PM.


#104    Jessica Christ

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 01:33 PM

Meanwhile Snowden is considered a hero by Hong Kong. Some are attending rallies in favor of Snowden and calls to "arrest Obama". One sign had a picture of Snowden claiming he was "in" and another picture of Jackie Chan labeling him as "out".

The Chinese government meanwhile might want to keep Snowden to "interrogate" him. Will they do it nicely? Set him up in a state mansion in cushy luxury in exchange for his patronage? Or will they hold him in a small cramped cell and torture secrets out of him?

Also is the Chinese government allowing the citizens of Hong Kong to publicly gather and demonstrate as a distraction? Allow them to focus on Snowden and the US spying "on them" as a way to ramp up their own Chinese domestic efforts to expand their own spy-on-their-own-citizen programs? As a way to secretly continue their crackdown in liberties in Hong Kong?

So my questions is this: Does China usually allow citizens of Hong Kong to protest in such a fashion? If this was a protest against their own government instead of ours, a foreign power, would it be allowed? Does the Chinese government have any reservations now about the anti-US demonstrations?


#105    Kowalski

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Posted 16 June 2013 - 03:14 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 16 June 2013 - 01:33 PM, said:

Meanwhile Snowden is considered a hero by Hong Kong. Some are attending rallies in favor of Snowden and calls to "arrest Obama". One sign had a picture of Snowden claiming he was "in" and another picture of Jackie Chan labeling him as "out".

The Chinese government meanwhile might want to keep Snowden to "interrogate" him. Will they do it nicely? Set him up in a state mansion in cushy luxury in exchange for his patronage? Or will they hold him in a small cramped cell and torture secrets out of him?

Also is the Chinese government allowing the citizens of Hong Kong to publicly gather and demonstrate as a distraction? Allow them to focus on Snowden and the US spying "on them" as a way to ramp up their own Chinese domestic efforts to expand their own spy-on-their-own-citizen programs? As a way to secretly continue their crackdown in liberties in Hong Kong?

So my questions is this: Does China usually allow citizens of Hong Kong to protest in such a fashion? If this was a protest against their own government instead of ours, a foreign power, would it be allowed? Does the Chinese government have any reservations now about the anti-US demonstrations?

Sounds to me like the Chinese people care more about our constitutional rights than we do, which is really ******* pathetic. (Excuse my French, but sometimes a cussword is appropriate in certain situations) Really though, it is. Pathetic and sad.....





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