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Are you willing to give your life for privacy

nsa edward snowden secrets whistleblower freedom

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Poll: Would you be willing to give your life for the privacy of others? (29 member(s) have cast votes)

In terms of what we now know the NSA is doing, would you be willing to give your life for the privacy of others?

  1. Yes (22 votes [75.86%])

    Percentage of vote: 75.86%

  2. No (2 votes [6.90%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.90%

  3. I'm afraid to answer this question for fear of becoming a target of the Justice Department (5 votes [17.24%])

    Percentage of vote: 17.24%

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#16    No Censorship

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:48 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 June 2013 - 02:53 PM, said:

Obama is certainly not a Hitler, and this sort of fanatical accusation goes beyond, way beyond, dirty politics.

That's true, but we need to make sure that we don't put totalitarians in high places. We need to learn from the past to prevent it, and Hitler and Nazis provide many lessons to us. A Holocaust survivor said that the USA is like Germany in 1935 (IIRC). That was a few years ago.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#17    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:19 AM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 10 June 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Your perspective of living in Indochina makes your opinion on this matter not so accurate or informed.  You're an expat Frank, which is fine by me, but you are about as good a judge of life in the US today as I am a judge of life in Saigon.  I'm not a good judge of life in Saigon. :whistle:
Utter garbage.  Who I am and where I am is ad hominem, and says nothing about the truth of what I say.  

I am not an expat.  I'm Vietnamese, but I dare say I know more about the States that you guys -- or at least my understanding of it is not so warped by paranoia and conspiracy and all that other extreme stuff.

One thing I have learned about the States is that accusing political enemies of either Fascism or Communism seems to be one of the stocks in trade of dirty politics, and needs to be spoken against in the strongest terms whenever it rears its head.

Edited by Frank Merton, 11 June 2013 - 04:24 AM.


#18    acidhead

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:22 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 June 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Utter garbage.  Who I am and where I am is ad hominem, and says nothing about the truth of what I say.  

I am not an expat. I'm Vietnamese, but I dare say I know more about the States that you guys -- or at least my understanding of it is not so warped by paranoia and conspiracy and all that other extreme stuff.

One thing I have learned about the States is that accusing political enemies of either Fascism or Communism seems to be one of the stocks in trade of dirty politics, and needs to be spoken against in the strongest terms whenever it rears its head.

lol



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#19    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:30 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 11 June 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

That's true, but we need to make sure that we don't put totalitarians in high places. We need to learn from the past to prevent it, and Hitler and Nazis provide many lessons to us. A Holocaust survivor said that the USA is like Germany in 1935 (IIRC). That was a few years ago.
I doubt the Fascist experience will ever be repeated, but other things as bad can happen.  Worst cases must always be in our thinking, but not allowed to dominate, as most of the time there is regression to the mean.  That the US is like Germany prior to Hitler is absurd.  US institutions are relatively healthy and stable, and the US did not just lose a World War.


#20    Babe Ruth

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:41 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 June 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Utter garbage.  Who I am and where I am is ad hominem, and says nothing about the truth of what I say.  

I am not an expat.  I'm Vietnamese, but I dare say I know more about the States that you guys -- or at least my understanding of it is not so warped by paranoia and conspiracy and all that other extreme stuff.

One thing I have learned about the States is that accusing political enemies of either Fascism or Communism seems to be one of the stocks in trade of dirty politics, and needs to be spoken against in the strongest terms whenever it rears its head.

Thanks for making it clear Frank, and no ad hom intended by me.

My point was that for any person living in a foreign country, that person's perspective regarding events in any other country, including the US, is limited.

The same rule applies to me.  Though I may read the British newspapers daily, my knowledge of British life is necessarily limited if I don't live there.  My perspective on British life and affairs is not particularly valid or relevant.

That was my only point.

In fact, the federal government has not governed in accordance with constitutional principles for quite a few years now, and there is no way you can fully appreciate that fact, as so many of us do, unless you live here.


#21    aztek

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 11 June 2013 - 04:19 AM, said:

Utter garbage.  
  I'm Vietnamese, but I dare say I know more about the States that you guys --

yes you are correct, it is utter garbage.  and best joke of the day too.  keep them comming. lol

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#22    WoIverine

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:11 PM

LOL, Vietnamese guy trolls hard. :lol:

Edited by WoIverine, 11 June 2013 - 03:14 PM.


#23    Capt Amerika

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:23 PM

Nothing disturbs me more than when a person says "Go ahead and listen in on my phone calls, i have nothing to hide"
That shows me right away i am dealing with a person who doesnt understand nor cares about the freedom this nation was founded upon.
And while i agree Obama is not Hitler i am left to ponder... Did Germans back then know they were following "Hitler'?
Did they feel something wasnt quite right when they were blindly giving up everything to the Government?
Its easy to see why people talk the way they do because some of the parallels are there.


#24    Sweetpumper

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:35 PM

View PostCapt Amerika, on 11 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

And while i agree Obama is not Hitler i am left to ponder... Did Germans back then know they were following "Hitler'?

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#25    Sweetpumper

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 03:41 PM

Oh, it's a quote you should know, considering your username. :tu:

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated." - Hunt for the Skinwalker

"The ultimate irony of the Disclosure movement is that it deeply distrusts officialdom, while simultaneously looking to officialdom for the truth." - Robbie Graham Silver Screen Saucers

#26    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:04 PM

View PostCapt Amerika, on 11 June 2013 - 03:23 PM, said:

Nothing disturbs me more than when a person says "Go ahead and listen in on my phone calls, i have nothing to hide"
That shows me right away i am dealing with a person who doesnt understand nor cares about the freedom this nation was founded upon.
And while i agree Obama is not Hitler i am left to ponder... Did Germans back then know they were following "Hitler'?
Did they feel something wasnt quite right when they were blindly giving up everything to the Government?
Its easy to see why people talk the way they do because some of the parallels are there.

Go ahead and listen in on my phone calls. I have nothing to hide.

View PostSweetpumper, on 11 June 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

Oh, it's a quote you should know, considering your username.

Because understanding and caring for freedom means quoting comic books and movies...?


#27    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:12 PM

View PostWoIverine, on 11 June 2013 - 03:11 PM, said:

LOL, Vietnamese guy trolls hard. :lol:
Now how did what I say constitute trolling?  I strongly disagree with you guys and I don't see where my nationality makes me unqualified to comment.


#28    Sweetpumper

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 11 June 2013 - 04:04 PM, said:

Because understanding and caring for freedom means quoting comic books and movies...?

Why does it matter where the quote comes from?

"At it's most basic level, science is supposed to represent the investigation of the unexplained, not the explanation of the uninvestigated." - Hunt for the Skinwalker

"The ultimate irony of the Disclosure movement is that it deeply distrusts officialdom, while simultaneously looking to officialdom for the truth." - Robbie Graham Silver Screen Saucers

#29    Avatar Samantha Ai

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:17 PM

View PostBabe Ruth, on 10 June 2013 - 08:19 PM, said:

Your perspective of living in Indochina makes your opinion on this matter not so accurate or informed.  You're an expat Frank, which is fine by me, but you are about as good a judge of life in the US today as I am a judge of life in Saigon.  I'm not a good judge of life in Saigon.

It is a cognitive bias to believe everyone is in the same boat as they are.

Just because one person in America feels they do not have a firm grasp on life in Saigon does not mean the inverse is true.

It might be that overall people in America generally know less about Vietnam due to our press reporting and our own citizens less frequently searching out Vietnamese point of views.

It might be that overall people in Vietnam know generally more about us than we do about them for the same reasons except that their press talks more about us than ours about them and their citizens are more likely to run into American point of views as his.

It seems Mr. Merton who visits America and is frequently around American point of views does indeed know more about us and our country than we do about him and his country. That has been demonstrated many times. It is also easy to see some Americans do have very similar views.

Another cognitive bias is to believe that all Americans feel one certain way. Not all Americans feel our situation is akin to Nazi Germany. In fact very few do it seems. Never heard this being said outside of any mainstream media sources. That is a good indicator right there regarding American consensus.

Edited by The world needs you, 11 June 2013 - 04:19 PM.


#30    Frank Merton

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Posted 11 June 2013 - 04:22 PM

I dare say those who really do have nothing to hide aren't as worried about this sort of thing as others may be.  

However, this is of course not the point.  We are entitled to privacy if we want it, end of subject, except when the society has a prevailing pressing interest.

Take an off-the-wall example: I wager those involved in human trafficking and child abuse would seriously want to protect privacy rights.  Does society have an interest in perhaps overriding them in this case?  I see fighting international terrorism and international drug trafficking and money laundering as not being far afield.

What seems to be the paranoia are people who regularly and vigorously express treasonous or revolutionary sentiments, or who at least have the idea that what they say might be interpreted that way.  Even freedom of speech has limits, and when it becomes conspiracy to overthrow the government illegally with force, one can conceive a situation where legal barriers that prevent authorities from learning about it might be helpful.

This scenario, at least with respect to the United States, is laughable.  The FBI occasionally has to suppress such a group, but it doesn't need elaborate wiretaps to find out what is going on, and such groups never present a serious threat anyway (except to some local sheep).






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