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Rhino species extinct


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#31    aquatus1

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:25 AM

View PostYamato, on 13 June 2013 - 02:08 AM, said:

Only if the civil society were a criminal society; that they're using the term poacher means that's not true.  It only takes a few bad men to do great wrongdoing, but they can only do that if the good who outnumber them sit and do nothing.

Wait, what?

The poachers aren't demanding rhino horns.  They are filling the demand for rhino horns.

The people demanding the rhino horns are the ones who consider themselves to be "good".


#32    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 03:46 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 13 June 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:



Wait, what?

The poachers aren't demanding rhino horns.  They are filling the demand for rhino horns.

The people demanding the rhino horns are the ones who consider themselves to be "good".
There's truth in what you've written.

"Though I stand in opposition to you, I am not opposed to you. Night and Day stand in opposition to each other, but they are not opposed to each other -they are merely two halves of the same coin."

#33    Yamato

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 05:52 AM

View Postaquatus1, on 13 June 2013 - 03:25 AM, said:

Wait, what?

The poachers aren't demanding rhino horns.  They are filling the demand for rhino horns.

The people demanding the rhino horns are the ones who consider themselves to be "good".
What rhino horns?   The rhinos are extinct now.   Demand needs supply.   Supply's gone to zero.   Keep up.  

What do you call someone who demands illegal goods?   Good criminals?  That's a good one.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#34    pallidin

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:03 AM

View PostYamato, on 13 June 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

What rhino horns?   The rhinos are extinct now.   Demand needs supply.   Supply's gone to zero.   Keep up.  

What do you call someone who demands illegal goods?   Good criminals?  That's a good one.

Those extinct rhinos are not the only type of rhinos out there. All rhino horns are coveted on the black market.

Keep up on "greed poachers"


#35    Yamato

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 06:34 AM

View Postpallidin, on 13 June 2013 - 06:03 AM, said:

Those extinct rhinos are not the only type of rhinos out there. All rhino horns are coveted on the black market.

Keep up on "greed poachers"
The point is, lawful people don't use the black market.  Somehow buying poached rhino horn wasn't understood to be bad.   I have no idea why.   Even in the wake of extinction, some people still can't get the clue.

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#36    shrooma

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:17 AM

when you consider that rhino horn is just keratin, somebody should start up a website saying that they're selling pre-powdered rhino horn, when in reality all they'd be selling is ground up toenail clippings & nostril hair. i'm sure the chinese wouldn't mind if no-one told them the truth, and it'd be a great way of finding out if placebos had any effect on erectile dysfunction.....
:-)

Edited by shrooma, 13 June 2013 - 11:14 AM.


#37    aquatus1

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 01:09 PM

View PostYamato, on 13 June 2013 - 05:52 AM, said:

What rhino horns?   The rhinos are extinct now.   Demand needs supply.   Supply's gone to zero.   Keep up.

You are seriously suggesting that rhinos are extinct?

Quote

What do you call someone who demands illegal goods?   Good criminals?  That's a good one.

No.  I call them normal.  I judge based on behaviour, not on artifical (and half-assed) designations of morality.

Edited by aquatus1, 13 June 2013 - 01:09 PM.


#38    Yamato

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 08:06 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 13 June 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

You are seriously suggesting that rhinos are extinct?

No.  I call them normal.  I judge based on behaviour, not on artifical (and half-assed) designations of morality.
I am seriously suggesting that the rhino we're discussing is extinct.   This display of disagreeing for the sheer purpose of disagreeing is gross.

You call them normal?    There is no society we can name where crime is the norm; a preposterous notion.

The supply of ivory from extinct rhinos is zero.  I don't know if this ivory was more demanded than other ivory for cultural, geographical, religious or magical reasons or not.  I'm not going to assume that it isn't just to make up fake rhetorical arguments with other posters on an anonymous message board.  It's an amateurish waste of time.  Life is too short for fussing and fighting my friend.

You would judge criminals normal and you're the bane of endangered species everywhere.  For shame.  And don't play the morality card.  If we're not even able to respect the laws we live under then it's not morality, it's anarchy.  

These poachers need to be contronted out on the field and either arrested and jailed or shot and killed by the authorities that are charged with their protection, their assets seized and/or destroyed, or otherwise stopped by civil society who are obviously needed to pick up the slack of governments who for whatever the reason refuse to do the jobs they're tasked with.

Edited by Yamato, 13 June 2013 - 08:26 PM.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#39    aquatus1

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:47 PM

View PostYamato, on 13 June 2013 - 08:06 PM, said:

I am seriously suggesting that the rhino we're discussing is extinct.   This display of disagreeing for the sheer purpose of disagreeing is gross.

What's worse is the habit of saying anything in defense of a point and then pretending what you said didn't matter as long as you felt it was correct.

Quote

You call them normal? There is no society we can name where crime is the norm; a preposterous notion.

Sure there is.  As long as the crime isn't being done in their backyard, people are surprisingly tolerant of crime.

Or do you think you aren't wearing anything made using slave labor?

Quote

The supply of ivory from extinct rhinos is zero.  You would judge criminals normal and you're the bane of endangered species everywhere.  For shame.  And don't play the morality card.  If we're not even able to respect the laws we live under then it's not morality, it's anarchy.  

Oh, look, it's someone calling a morality judgement on someone else because of an assumption they made...how unexpected.

Quote

These poachers need to be contronted out on the field and either arrested and jailed or shot and killed by the authorities that are charged with their protection, their assets seized and/or destroyed, or otherwise stopped by civil society who are obviously needed to pick up the slack of governments who for whatever the reason refuse to do the jobs they're tasked with.

Yeah, failure of nature conservation is always due to people refusing to do their jobs.

Jeez, Yamato...

You claim that society needs to stop the culling of horns, and I point out that poachers are supplying the demand, not creating it.

You jump to rhino's being extinct, all horns are gone, that demand needs a supply, and supply has gone to zero.  You demand I "Keep up", but I am still trying to figure out the very clearly stated claim that the poachers are going to have to find a new source of income since the culling of horns is no longer an option. I am apparently not the only person who interpreted it that way, but you just handwaved away your own claims, stating that the important thing is that "lawful people" don't use the black market.

Your personal naivete notwithstanding (did you just kind of assume that there is an entire, seperate, hidden society of "civilian" criminals buying all the goods the active criminals procured for them?),  I did ask for the same clarification that was asked of you previously, and I did clarify your request as to what I called people who bought illegal goods.

Your conclusion:  The interpretation of your claim as made by two seperate people cannot be lack of clarity on your part; it must be "disagreeing for the sheer purpose of disagreeing".  Also, lack of knowledge on your part lack of knowledge on anyone else's part.

You openly admit that you don't know why the ivory is in demand (which indicates that not only did you not read the article, you didn't even bother to read the snippet actually posted in the OP itself), but you are perfectly okay with assuming that any opinion other than yours is wrong, and on top of that, nothing more than a "rhetorical" argument.

A "rhetorical" argument would be pointing out that rhinos don't have ivory, but I didn't do that because I knew what you meant, even if you said it wrong.

But the worst part is where you pass morality judgement on me, claiming that I would judge criminals to be normal, and that I am a danger to endangered species everywhere.  I can only assume this is drawn from your earlier conclusion in another thread that because I oppose the Sea Shepherd, I must be pro-whaling (as opposed to anti-stupidity).  You then have the gall to say "For shame", after demanding that I not play the morality card.

There is a fellow in the CT crowd that I refuse to engage with because he became so enamoured with playing coy with words he never saw himself falling away from wit and into intellectual dishonesty.  Now, unfortunately, it is a habit of his he can no longer control (he is rather notorious for through the internet, actual)y.  You are rapidly sliding down that same slope.

Quote

I don't know if this ivory was more demanded than other ivory for cultural, geographical, religious or magical reasons or not.  I'm not going to assume that it isn't just to make up fake rhetorical arguments with other posters on an anonymous message board.  It's an amateurish waste of time.  Life is too short for fussing and fighting my friend.

Me, I'll do that thing where you read the article and see what it says, or even where you google a bit of you don't know enough about the topic.  Life is to short be assuming sh!t about others.  You can assume all you want.  We all know what happens when you do that.

Or better yet, stop assuming s*** and basing your conclusions around it.

Edited by aquatus1, 13 June 2013 - 11:49 PM.


#40    Lilly

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:28 AM

They need to do this: http://www.savetherh...bate/de-horning

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#41    redhen

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:21 AM

No, don't cut off their horns, you need to mount offensive operations against the poachers, like in South Africa.

"So far this year 13 poachers have been killed and 28 arrested in Kruger, according to information from the park. Eight more were arrested near the park yesterday, National Parks said."


#42    Abramelin

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 02:52 PM

View Postshrooma, on 13 June 2013 - 10:17 AM, said:

when you consider that rhino horn is just keratin, somebody should start up a website saying that they're selling pre-powdered rhino horn, when in reality all they'd be selling is ground up toenail clippings & nostril hair. i'm sure the chinese wouldn't mind if no-one told them the truth, and it'd be a great way of finding out if placebos had any effect on erectile dysfunction.....
:-)

If that would help those suffering from erectile dysfunction, then no one will ever dare to bite his fingernails in public again, LOL !

It wouldn't be, "Jeesh, that guy really is nervous, look at him biting his fingernails", but "Hah, another sufferer from LDS (Limp D--- Syndrome)".

.

Edited by Abramelin, 14 June 2013 - 02:56 PM.


#43    Eldorado

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 06:01 PM

I never did trust that Streisand woman,


#44    Yamato

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 07:55 PM

View Postaquatus1, on 13 June 2013 - 11:47 PM, said:

What's worse is the habit of saying anything in defense of a point and then pretending what you said didn't matter as long as you felt it was correct.



Sure there is.  As long as the crime isn't being done in their backyard, people are surprisingly tolerant of crime.

Or do you think you aren't wearing anything made using slave labor?



Oh, look, it's someone calling a morality judgement on someone else because of an assumption they made...how unexpected.



Yeah, failure of nature conservation is always due to people refusing to do their jobs.

Jeez, Yamato...

You claim that society needs to stop the culling of horns, and I point out that poachers are supplying the demand, not creating it.

You jump to rhino's being extinct, all horns are gone, that demand needs a supply, and supply has gone to zero.  You demand I "Keep up", but I am still trying to figure out the very clearly stated claim that the poachers are going to have to find a new source of income since the culling of horns is no longer an option. I am apparently not the only person who interpreted it that way, but you just handwaved away your own claims, stating that the important thing is that "lawful people" don't use the black market.

Your personal naivete notwithstanding (did you just kind of assume that there is an entire, seperate, hidden society of "civilian" criminals buying all the goods the active criminals procured for them?),  I did ask for the same clarification that was asked of you previously, and I did clarify your request as to what I called people who bought illegal goods.

Your conclusion:  The interpretation of your claim as made by two seperate people cannot be lack of clarity on your part; it must be "disagreeing for the sheer purpose of disagreeing".  Also, lack of knowledge on your part lack of knowledge on anyone else's part.

You openly admit that you don't know why the ivory is in demand (which indicates that not only did you not read the article, you didn't even bother to read the snippet actually posted in the OP itself), but you are perfectly okay with assuming that any opinion other than yours is wrong, and on top of that, nothing more than a "rhetorical" argument.

A "rhetorical" argument would be pointing out that rhinos don't have ivory, but I didn't do that because I knew what you meant, even if you said it wrong.

But the worst part is where you pass morality judgement on me, claiming that I would judge criminals to be normal, and that I am a danger to endangered species everywhere.  I can only assume this is drawn from your earlier conclusion in another thread that because I oppose the Sea Shepherd, I must be pro-whaling (as opposed to anti-stupidity).  You then have the gall to say "For shame", after demanding that I not play the morality card.

There is a fellow in the CT crowd that I refuse to engage with because he became so enamoured with playing coy with words he never saw himself falling away from wit and into intellectual dishonesty.  Now, unfortunately, it is a habit of his he can no longer control (he is rather notorious for through the internet, actual)y.  You are rapidly sliding down that same slope.



Me, I'll do that thing where you read the article and see what it says, or even where you google a bit of you don't know enough about the topic.  Life is to short be assuming sh!t about others.  You can assume all you want.  We all know what happens when you do that.

Or better yet, stop assuming s*** and basing your conclusions around it.
The supply of ivory from an extinct species goes to zero.   Reminding me there are alternate sources of ivory is no correction, it's just rhetoric that betrays your true attitude about this issue   What the poachers must do in response isn't to find their ivory elsewhere, it's to stop poaching ivory.    There are many possibilities we should be discussing to stop the poachers hard in their tracks to prevent the next extinction.   Know any?

I didn't "admit" I didn't know why ivory was in demand (where?), I referred to some reasons why it is.  

Telling me what "poachers are going to have to do" shows you're concerned about the poachers' perspective and not the rhinos'.  The poachers are going to have to be stopped before more rhinos go extinct.  I would suggest figuring out what can be done about the threat from poachers to other large animals instead of m********ing about me.

Quote

You claim that society needs to stop the culling of horns, and I point out that poachers are supplying the demand, not creating it.

Poachers are supplying the demand not creating it, and civil society always needs to pick up where government fails to stop the culling.   Two different statements, your not even addressing mine.  Those are not mutually exclusive and there's nothing I said that your statement was answering to.   Civil society, not government, is the mechanism through which all great social change has come about through history.  

What you don't seem to understand is people who produce illegal goods and people who buy them both have a guilty hand in this.   Cutting off the supply is an answer so long as it isn't accomplished through extinction of species.   Ivory can be made so prohibitively expensive (because poaching it will likely lead to a sniper's bullet in your head) that the demand at those market prices evaporates.

Asians and Africans can surely do without their magic medicines and religious relics all the same.   The reasons people have for buying these illegal goods are ridiculous.  Kowtowing to the poachers is a livelong dream for some people though no matter how ridiculous the reasons get for poaching endangered animals.

Crime is never the norm of any society.  So what's normal to you isn't normal anywhere in reality.   If crime pays, then there's a lack of enforcement.   If I buy illegal goods and get caught doing it, I can't use these abusive tirades with the police you're using on me to get anywhere with them either.  If you want to be taken seriously in any discussion about conservation of species in the future, you'll need to provide some alternatives instead of engaging in buttsore obfuscation.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#45    The Sky Scanner

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Posted 15 June 2013 - 08:15 PM

I don't think it matters who is supplying the demand or creating the demand. The only issue at play here for me is how you stop the extinction of a species - and in this regard you aim for the real problem, the poacher.

I say that because I see this as being no different from any other issue whereby the demands of some are exploited by others. Whether it's for medicine or through superstition you are just playing on people's fears, and just as the dealer is worse then the addict, the loan shark worse then the person in debt, the people trafficker worse then the illegal immigrant etc....the poacher is worse then the demand it's supplying, it's just playing on people's fears/superstition for profit, and where as the other examples have a detrimental affect on society, this has a detrimental affect on a species - therefore the buck stops with the poacher, and all sights should be set on them. imo.

"Equipped with his five senses, man explores the universe around him and calls the adventure Science". ~ Edwin Powell Hubble




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