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The Truth About Revelation 14:12


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#31    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostYamato, on 15 July 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

And parroting Nazi propaganda about Christianity is your business of the day only you're a lot more persistent about it than they were.

First off- What is Nazi propaganda in ref to Christianity?  The irony is, you say this to a Jew...!!!

Secondly - He is Jewish, he beliefs come from holy text, this pushes his ideas...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 15 July 2013 - 01:43 PM.

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#32    DeWitz

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 03:41 PM

View PostYamato, on 15 July 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

I wasn't aware the US had a non-Jew-only military but thanks for playing "I've got a problem with you because once upon a time".   If everyone thought like you and acted out on their thoughts, we'll all be at each others' throats and the violence would never end.   I think the US, UK, Canada etc. helped win WWII which ended the Holocaust.   Germany should be paying us reparations, not us paying Jews who chose to move thousands of miles away so Europe could export their Jewish problem to the Middle East.  

My problem isn't with the Jews, but if that's the exhaustive list you want to make trouble about, it sounds like you have a problem with Europeans which is ironic considering what the population of Israel is today.  I highlight a Jewish ex-Marine named Adam Kokesh on a regular basis here.  You should check out my content more often.

And parroting Nazi propaganda about Christianity is your business of the day only you're a lot more persistent about it than they were.

The strictest interpretation of Revelation 14:12 is as an acknowledgement of Christian martyrs who persevered in faith during the Roman persecutions and atrocities, circa 100 AD. At it's broadest it affirms all those who recognize that God is sovereign in history throughout all oppression, condemnation and death (Christians anticipate this universal and timeless power through the resurrection of Christ). Other faith traditions come to that appreciation that God is 'all-in-all' in other ways.

As for terrorism, no religious movement in history is altogether immune from wrongdoing. But as for formal acts of partisan terrorism, Menachem Begin, Yitzakh Shamir, and many others belonging to the Irgun Zionist organization (and other militant Jewish groups) killed a lot of innocent people in the years leading up to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. For example, in 1946 Begin and several others (future Israeli patriots) bombed Jerusalem's King David Hotel, murdering Swedish diplomat and peace negotiator Folke Bernadotte and 90 others--British administrators working to disengage from Palestine, maids, waiters, passers-by, etc. The connection with Revelation 14:12 is that many contemporary Christians consider Bernadotte a martyr for peace, thereby fitting in the broad interpretation in paragraph 1 above.

Edited by szentgyorgy, 15 July 2013 - 03:42 PM.

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#33    Yamato

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:11 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 15 July 2013 - 01:42 PM, said:

First off- What is Nazi propaganda in ref to Christianity?  The irony is, you say this to a Jew...!!!

Secondly - He is Jewish, he beliefs come from holy text, this pushes his ideas...
No, the irony is, a Jew is the one spewing the Nazi propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia....ds_Christianity

Oh really?   Show me where in his Holy Texts that 80% of the New Testament is anti-semitic.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
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#34    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:19 PM

View PostArpee, on 20 June 2013 - 10:29 PM, said:

Ben Masada has a point. It's interesting how Christians reinterpreted prophecies from The Bible in order to make it seem like they were all fulfilled by Jesus.

In fact they were, Ben is something of a conundrum in that being Jewish he doesn't believe in many of the things Jews have believed throughout the centuries... so I wouldn't base too much on what he has to say on his own faith...

Edited by Jor-el, 15 July 2013 - 07:33 PM.

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#35    Yamato

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:22 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 15 July 2013 - 03:41 PM, said:

The strictest interpretation of Revelation 14:12 is as an acknowledgement of Christian martyrs who persevered in faith during the Roman persecutions and atrocities, circa 100 AD. At it's broadest it affirms all those who recognize that God is sovereign in history throughout all oppression, condemnation and death (Christians anticipate this universal and timeless power through the resurrection of Christ). Other faith traditions come to that appreciation that God is 'all-in-all' in other ways.

As for terrorism, no religious movement in history is altogether immune from wrongdoing. But as for formal acts of partisan terrorism, Menachem Begin, Yitzakh Shamir, and many others belonging to the Irgun Zionist organization (and other militant Jewish groups) killed a lot of innocent people in the years leading up to the establishment of the State of Israel in 1948. For example, in 1946 Begin and several others (future Israeli patriots) bombed Jerusalem's King David Hotel, murdering Swedish diplomat and peace negotiator Folke Bernadotte and 90 others--British administrators working to disengage from Palestine, maids, waiters, passers-by, etc. The connection with Revelation 14:12 is that many contemporary Christians consider Bernadotte a martyr for peace, thereby fitting in the broad interpretation in paragraph 1 above.
I think your interpretation of Rev 14:12 fits best.

Zionism was borne of terror, it invented the terrorism that people think of when they think of terrorism today (e.g. blowing up buildings full of civilians).  It's little wonder the world suffers from the policies today it does from the Zionists.  I'm of the mind that nothing good can come from terrorism.   It has precious little to do with a religious movement though Israelis work hard every day to wrap their politics up in their religion, they violate their own scriptures more than follow them.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#36    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:32 PM

View PostYamato, on 15 July 2013 - 07:11 PM, said:

No, the irony is, a Jew is the one spewing the Nazi propaganda.
http://en.wikipedia....ds_Christianity

Oh really?   Show me where in his Holy Texts that 80% of the New Testament is anti-semitic.

What I meant was.. Each thread and most of the posts Ben makes, comes from his own Jewish beliefs and how he has interpreted it..   I think it's all within the interpretations...It's not much different from Christianity itself, it has so many chrisians giving their own interpretations of the bible, hence why Christianity is split so many times again and again.. Not everyone will agree with others..So he is doing the same with his own beliefs and the text he reads...

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#37    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:34 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 15 July 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

What I meant was.. Each thread and most of the posts Ben makes, comes from his own Jewish beliefs and how he has interpreted it..   I think it's all within the interpretations...It's not much different from Christianity itself, it has so many chrisians giving their own interpretations of the bible, hence why Christianity is split so many times again and again.. Not everyone will agree with others..So he is doing the same with his own beliefs and the text he reads...

And thus he cannot speak for judaism as a whole, which he undoubtedly does...

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#38    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:39 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 July 2013 - 07:34 PM, said:

And thus he cannot speak for judaism as a whole, which he undoubtedly does...

I cut him some slack, he is the only Jewish member I can see who posts more often.. And he is no different from the odd christian here and there, who like to speak for everyone else..

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#39    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:41 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 15 July 2013 - 07:39 PM, said:

I cut him some slack, he is the only Jewish member I can see who posts more often.. And he is no different from the odd christian here and there, who like to speak for everyone else..

I cut him some slack too, but not when what he posts actually contradicts the most ancient and trustworthy sources of Jewish belief and what is taught in Judaism still to this day.

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#40    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 July 2013 - 07:41 PM, said:

I cut him some slack too, but not when what he posts actually contradicts the most ancient and trustworthy sources of Jewish belief and what is taught in Judaism still to this day.

Which is your opinion not his..

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#41    Yamato

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:46 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 15 July 2013 - 07:32 PM, said:

What I meant was.. Each thread and most of the posts Ben makes, comes from his own Jewish beliefs and how he has interpreted it..   I think it's all within the interpretations...It's not much different from Christianity itself, it has so many chrisians giving their own interpretations of the bible, hence why Christianity is split so many times again and again.. Not everyone will agree with others..So he is doing the same with his own beliefs and the text he reads...
Okay but if his "beliefs come from holy text", I'll ask again, what scriptures is he interpreting?  

Unfortunately that's just not the case so I'm saying that no, you're wrong.   Unfortunately, his interpretations are identical to Nazi interpretations, even when you do some homework and study the devil in the details, it's Nazi interpretation through and through.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#42    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 07:53 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 15 July 2013 - 07:44 PM, said:

Which is your opinion not his..

Not my opinion, if it were merely my opinion then we wouldn't have aproblem, but it is the opinion of many other jews, some of whom actually do teach at a substantially higher level.

When one actually contradicts the 13 principles of Jewish faith, one cannot speak for the whole.

Edited by Jor-el, 15 July 2013 - 07:54 PM.

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#43    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 July 2013 - 07:53 PM, said:

Not my opinion

I see it such..The same way I see all religious views

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 15 July 2013 - 08:04 PM.

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#44    Jor-el

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:22 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 15 July 2013 - 08:03 PM, said:

I see it such..The same way I see all religious views

Maybe you should actually question his views then and then study what Judaism says, then make your own decision regarding the issue...

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#45    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostJor-el, on 15 July 2013 - 08:22 PM, said:

Maybe you should actually question his views then and then study what Judaism says, then make your own decision regarding the issue...

Why?  Its still going to be a matter of ones own interpretation..

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 15 July 2013 - 08:28 PM.

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