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The Truth About Revelation 14:12


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#61    Yamato

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:09 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 16 July 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Riiiight... So no one can pick up a bible read it from cover to cover, and gain an understanding to what it means, unless they are.......a Christian?  Otherwise they won't let you do it? ...You crack me up   lol
So I can pick up a Talmud and gain an understanding to what it means and then come here and patronize Jews for not knowing what their own Holy Book means because I know better?    Thanks!   That would make me feel ashamed of myself but so long as you approve...

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#62    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:19 PM

View PostYamato, on 16 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

So I can pick up a Talmud and gain an understanding to what it means and then come here and patronize Jews for not knowing what their own Holy Book means because I know better?

It never stopped you before  lol   Remember, you put on a head for almost anything,it doesn't have to be Jewish or even Islamic, you would even go in and give us Irish a lecture on how does our forest grow? :P   Yamato, over here we Irish would nick name you - Jack of all trades  lol

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 16 July 2013 - 01:20 PM.

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#63    Yamato

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 16 July 2013 - 01:19 PM, said:

It never stopped you before  lol   Remember, you put on a head for almost anything,it doesn't have to be Jewish or even Islamic, you would even go in and give us Irish a lecture on how does our forest grow? :P   Yamato, over here we Irish would nick name you - Jack of all trades  lol
That reminds me of high school.  Eight different subjects in seven hours a day.  From math class to getting beat up in the school yard again in 12 minutes flat.   Then as education got higher and higher, it grew more and more specialized.   I think that this explains why geniuses are often likened with insanity.   They're so focused on the deep narrow hole they consume themselves with in their field of expertise that they miss out on all the breadth, variety and richness of life.  I would ponder this for hours when deciding upon my major in grad school.  It was terrifying actually.   I think we both went to Catechism right?   What was it good for?   I'm not counting my sacraments anymore but as an agnostic I think I have a broader field of vision from which to analyze religions.  I'm not limited to any one Holy Book, I don't think I have all of the truth housed by my own belief.    I can see redeeming qualities in just about every religion I've ever looked into though none of them are close to perfect.

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#64    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostYamato, on 16 July 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

That reminds me of high school.  Eight different subjects in seven hours a day.  From math class to getting beat up in the school yard again in 12 minutes flat.   Then as education got higher and higher, it grew more and more specialized.   I think that this explains why geniuses are often likened with insanity.   They're so focused on the deep narrow hole they consume themselves with in their field of expertise that they miss out on all the breadth, variety and richness of life.  I would ponder this for hours when deciding upon my major in grad school.  It was terrifying actually.   I think we both went to Catechism right?   What was it good for?   I'm not counting my sacraments anymore but as an agnostic I think I have a broader field of vision from which to analyze religions.  I'm not limited to any one Holy Book, I don't think I have all of the truth housed by my own belief. I can see redeeming qualities in just about every religion I've ever looked into though none of them are close to perfect.

You're right not to limit yourself..Variety is the spice of life...  

Have you ever thought of something different from what you normally get stuck into, like Politics and religion?   Like something completely different...IE - Science?  The arts?  Music? Computers and gaming? OR What the site was built on - The paranormal and aliens mysteries?  ...

I used to only ever post on the spirituality boards, non stop...When I stepped back and looked at it, I thought, it's high time I took interest in other things, it was a rut I had to get out of..  That's why I took an interest in American politics, to learn things..  I jump over to other topics, and most times I do for fun, I hate being too serious all the time, it's not healthy...

There are people  who would limit themselves to one book and nothing else matters..Which is fine ( not saying there is anything wrong with it )  if that's what speaks to them..But for someone like myself, that would bore me, it would be like doing the same thing day in day out...Some of these people who limit themselves to one subject, never venture out of their comfort zone...I was like that and glad I stepped away.

I now only post on religious/spirituality boards IF I am board, and try and now say too much on them, like what I used to do...You get to see the same tunes played over and over again...If you were listening to a radio station playing the same tunes non stop on a loop, you'd soon turn the radio off ..

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#65    Jor-el

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 06:12 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 16 July 2013 - 11:28 AM, said:

Riiiight... So no one can pick up a bible read it from cover to cover, and gain an understanding to what it means, unless they are.......a Christian?  Otherwise they won't let you do it? ...You crack me up   lol

Sure you can.... and the result is.... Jesus is an alien, Jesus, was a crazy schizo, Jesus was (insert anything you want to your hearts desire).....

That is why you have different opinions because people don't actually know what they are reading and take liberties of all kinds with the text... you can in fact twist anything around sufficiently to make it say whatever you want, I've seen this done on this board, Ive seen may things on this board that crack me up and only exist due to ignorance of what is written.

I do not stand idly by when I see these things because there is such a thing as integrity to the text and to the words themselves.

I will not allow such a thing to happen while I'm around.

So in big bold words... yes only a christian will do justice to the New Testament, just like only a muslim will do justice to the Quran and a Jew will do justice to the Torah. Because they know exactly why they are saying the things they do.

What I find funny as that any person can showe up and claim they are a christian and they'l be given credit as such, even when they speak the worst of Jesus himself. A person can show up and claim to be Jewish and everyone will do the same, even when he massacres the very text he claims to believe in... and we are supposed to let that stand?

Each person is indeed entightled to his opinion, and that is all we can give here on this board, but they can be called to account for actually stating things contrary to the religion they profess to claim.

Edited by Jor-el, 16 July 2013 - 06:13 PM.

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#66    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 07:42 PM

View PostJor-el, on 16 July 2013 - 06:12 PM, said:

Sure you can.... and the result is.... Jesus is an alien, Jesus, was a crazy schizo, Jesus was (insert anything you want to your hearts desire).....

Wrong, you are speaking of people reading parts here and there, not people who have read it cover to cover and gained a good understanding....Not all will do this...  Many can and have been able to show a full understanding, even more than so many Christians...  There are a good few biblical scholars who aren't Christian either, and could leave a lot of you in the shade...  No one needs to be Christian to understand the bible...It's a book that everyone can drum up their own interpretations..Christians are not the only ones that do this...  I have seen a good number of Christians over time, make the wrong interpretations, and others jump in to correct them, including non Christians..

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    I've seen this done on this board, Ive seen may things on this board that crack me up and only exist due to ignorance of what is written.  
That's because they are not saying what you want to hear..When you limit yourself to one thing and only one thing, you will not take notice of what's going on around you... Stand on the outside and look in for once...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 16 July 2013 - 07:45 PM.

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#67    Jor-el

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:05 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 16 July 2013 - 07:42 PM, said:

Wrong, you are speaking of people reading parts here and there, not people who have read it cover to cover and gained a good understanding....Not all will do this...  Many can and have been able to show a full understanding, even more than so many Christians...  There are a good few biblical scholars who aren't Christian either, and could leave a lot of you in the shade...  No one needs to be Christian to understand the bible...It's a book that everyone can drum up their own interpretations..Christians are not the only ones that do this...  I have seen a good number of Christians over time, make the wrong interpretations, and others jump in to correct them, including non Christians..

You have been on this forum how long now BM?

There may be good scholars out there, no doubt about it, but biblical scholars, those are few and far between... I can count on my hands the number off times a non christian has actually corrected a christian on the bible and most of those are ex christians. Most times it is other christians who do the correcting and even that is subject to a persons desire to learn or simply argue for the sake of it.

Quote

That's because they are not saying what you want to hear..When you limit yourself to one thing and only one thing, you will not take notice of what's going on around you... Stand on the outside and look in for once...

I hear all sorts of things, I don't refuse to hear anyone, but the merit of their argument "must" and I say this without hesitation... must comply to the rules of established biblical interpretation. The rules exist, this is not a wild jungle without rules.

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#68    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:43 PM

View PostJor-el, on 16 July 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

You have been on this forum how long now BM?

Long enough to see what comes and what goes...I've gotten to a point where I no longer sit deep on the religious boards, because I see the same things day in and day out, I grew bored of it.. So I only pop back now and again  IF nothing else is happening elsewhere..  If you left the boards for several months  ( and I have done ) you would return and see no changes.. Even if you left for years... The same things will be repeated time and time again, only by different people..

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      There may be good scholars out there, no doubt about it, but biblical scholars, those are few and far between                    

A lot of them exist, and they are not just biblical scholars, they don't limit their expertise to one book..That would be a drag in my opinion.

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    I can count on my hands the number off times a non christian has actually corrected a christian on the bible and most of those are ex christians.          

Even with ex Christians, how brave and often will a Christian tell the ex Christian - Well you don't understand our bible as well as you think, not if you are no longer christian?  .... That is a weak and poor excuse for a response, and I have heard it and similar to it so often...

It's like ...if you weren't Christian, and you picked up the bible just out of curiosity, and the fact you love to read many books... You read it, cover to cover and because you are intelligent, you understand it word for word...BUT, you chalk it down to a matter of belief, a book with inspiration, and you sense nothing more other than that..    You will  without a shadow of doubt, have someone who see's you are not singing their tune, so they say - Well you obviously don't hold that much of an understanding if you cannot see it has truth?

Well dare anyone say the bible has inaccuracies, the moment they do, that's when a bunch of Christians will claim it isn't.. Failing to understand that of course it has inaccuracies, it was written by men and a lot of them, it was not written by an all perfect being, you can spot that a mile off...

It's not just Christians, I'll give you one clear example of how believers will come out with the same automated response, the moment they hear of one of their flock leaving and joining another religion  ...

Below is a video of an ex muslim  ( who's ancestors where friends with Muhammed ) who claims to have seen Jesus  through an NDE, so he converts over to Christianity...



Underneath the video, the comments read - "He was never a muslim to begin with  blah blah ".. This is how frustrated folks react, if someone no longer is part of their group..
Same happened to me, I was told I wasn't a good catholic to begin with, even though I was a practising one, it doesn't matter, because the sec you step away, that's when these stupid remarks pour out of some people..  Its an automatic response and it is tiresome, not to mention stupid...

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#69    Ben Masada

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:44 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 13 July 2013 - 03:03 AM, said:

Yes, Revelation speaks extensively about Jesus' status as king and messiah, and yet you have chosen to pull out one verse in chapter 14 in an attempt to prove that Orthodox Judaism is correct and true.  The rest of Revelation is Hellenistic claptrap, but not this verse, this is the one true verse that managed to survive to refer to Jesus' Judaic walk of life - oh, and let's ignore other translations that are consistent with the rest of Revelation as referring to a person's faith in Jesus, that doesn't suit your agenda.

Am I close?

By the way, I don't recall if I have told you before that I do accept 20% of the whole NT as genuinely coming from Jesus and about him. The other 80% is made out of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.


#70    Ben Masada

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:48 PM

View PostBluefinger, on 14 July 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

I explained that Melchizedek meant rightful king.  Anyway, it's likely that the author of Hebrews wasn't quoting the Hebrew version, but more likely the Septuagint.

"The Lord sware, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever, after the order of Melchisedec."  (Psalm 110:4)

In that case I guess we all should stick to the translation that best satisfies our preconceived notions.


#71    Ben Masada

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 08:55 PM

View PostYamato, on 15 July 2013 - 04:15 AM, said:

I wasn't aware the US had a non-Jew-only military but thanks for playing "I've got a problem with you because once upon a time".   If everyone thought like you and acted out on their thoughts, we'll all be at each others' throats and the violence would never end.   I think the US, UK, Canada etc. helped win WWII which ended the Holocaust.   Germany should be paying us reparations, not us paying Jews who chose to move thousands of miles away so Europe could export their Jewish problem to the Middle East.  

My problem isn't with the Jews, but if that's the exhaustive list you want to make trouble about, it sounds like you have a problem with Europeans which is ironic considering what the population of Israel is today.  I highlight a Jewish ex-Marine named Adam Kokesh on a regular basis here.  You should check out my content more often.

And parroting Nazi propaganda about Christianity is your business of the day only you're a lot more persistent about it than they were.

So for violence to end the Jews must surrender... is it what you mean? BTW, I am not in the US. I am in Israel; I am an Israeli.  The Israeli kind of Jew does not surrender too easy.


#72    Yamato

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 16 July 2013 - 02:12 PM, said:

You're right not to limit yourself..Variety is the spice of life...  

Have you ever thought of something different from what you normally get stuck into, like Politics and religion?   Like something completely different...IE - Science?  The arts?  Music? Computers and gaming? OR What the site was built on - The paranormal and aliens mysteries?  ...

I used to only ever post on the spirituality boards, non stop...When I stepped back and looked at it, I thought, it's high time I took interest in other things, it was a rut I had to get out of..  That's why I took an interest in American politics, to learn things..  I jump over to other topics, and most times I do for fun, I hate being too serious all the time, it's not healthy...

There are people  who would limit themselves to one book and nothing else matters..Which is fine ( not saying there is anything wrong with it )  if that's what speaks to them..But for someone like myself, that would bore me, it would be like doing the same thing day in day out...Some of these people who limit themselves to one subject, never venture out of their comfort zone...I was like that and glad I stepped away.

I now only post on religious/spirituality boards IF I am board, and try and now say too much on them, like what I used to do...You get to see the same tunes played over and over again...If you were listening to a radio station playing the same tunes non stop on a loop, you'd soon turn the radio off ..
It's funny you should ask.  The reason I signed up on UM is because I had a paranormal experience in my life and I shared it on the forum in the longest post I ever wrote.  I got a lot of replies, but for whatever reason, the thread went Poof.  I wanted to follow up on that thread and had some updates as well and it's a shame that when I have something genuine to share with people on a site like this I can't have a forum to do it on.   My first post was probably the most valuable one I ever wrote.  Baffling that I lost that thread.  Too bad too, it was like a diary while the experiences were fresh.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#73    Yamato

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 10:06 PM

View PostBen Masada, on 16 July 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

So for violence to end the Jews must surrender... is it what you mean? BTW, I am not in the US. I am in Israel; I am an Israeli.  The Israeli kind of Jew does not surrender too easy.
That's not where I was going, no.  But since you mention it, for violence to end, Jews don't need Israel.   Pouring your security, your liberty, your very identity as a religion into a century-old nationalistic political movement isn't a good idea.  Judaism isn't served well from being politicized and when the policies are violating your scriptures more than not it's more than just politicization it's bastardizing and jeopardizing it.  Judaism endured for thousands of years before Israel, and deserves much more respect where it exists outside of, and independent of, Israel.  It's a total media blackout in the US every time thousands of Jews get together to protest Israeli policies.  I see Zionist propaganda in the US from the likes of 'Shalom TV' where Jews living outside of Israel (or who otherwise don't support Israel by staying politically active, paying donations, and at least traveling there) are treated like 2nd-class people.

In places in the world free from religious oppression like the US, Jews are under no threat to need surrendering to.  Israel is not one of those places because you oppress others who don't fit into your nationalistic goals for whatever reason.

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#74    Paranoid Android

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 01:58 AM

View PostBen Masada, on 16 July 2013 - 08:44 PM, said:

By the way, I don't recall if I have told you before that I do accept 20% of the whole NT as genuinely coming from Jesus and about him. The other 80% is made out of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.
Yes, you've mentioned that to me.  It's convenient for you, for you can pick what you like, and toss out what you don't.  It makes it impossible to have a conversation with you, because you'll quote the Bible to us, and then when we quote the Bible back, you dismiss it immediately.

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#75    Jor-el

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 06:04 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 17 July 2013 - 01:58 AM, said:

Yes, you've mentioned that to me.  It's convenient for you, for you can pick what you like, and toss out what you don't.  It makes it impossible to have a conversation with you, because you'll quote the Bible to us, and then when we quote the Bible back, you dismiss it immediately.

And we never know which 20% he accepts because it keeps changing depending on the argument he is making....

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