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Luciferianism


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#31    Heru

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostChloeB, on 13 June 2013 - 09:12 PM, said:

And you see no connection with the serpent in the garden of eden, what did he bring, what tree was that?  These characters and similar stories pop up over and over, Prometheus, punished by a tyrannical god for elevating mankind up, wanting to keep mankind enslaved, ignorant, obedient, i.e. what the Abrahamic religions teach.



Huh???  Neither Modern christians or Gnostic christians had the serpent bringing anything, while gnostics believed the tree was a good thing it was actually Sophia who went into the tree after avoiding being raped and blah blah blah. And the point of all central powers is to enslave the majority either with gods, money or political parties.   And its similar cause its all greek, Jesus isnt a hebrew name, New testiment was written in what language. And if you read early christian texts ull really see the similarities to greek philosophy.


But I can tell this isn't a serious discussion but a troll post, so carry on ill step out of this thread.


#32    ChloeB

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 09:28 PM

View PostHeru, on 13 June 2013 - 09:16 PM, said:

Lucifer isnt a name or a title.  Main religions like what???? Buddahism? Tao? Hindu?  I could go on and on but im guessing, like so many, what you mean by "Main religions" just equals Christianity due to thats the basic knowledge most have, which isnt much on that seeing as Jesus taught about looking within for the kingdom of heaven not from the temple or Pharisees.

Main religions of the West, the big 3 Abrahamic, better?  There are also texts that say Jesus said to look for the kingdom of heaven within you (similar to what he's mentioned about Lucifer here), and funny both Jesus and Lucifer are referred to as the morning star.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#33    Arpee

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:06 PM

View Postpallidin, on 13 June 2013 - 05:12 PM, said:

I am not a fan of "Lucifer", as his "spiritual freedom" is complete freedom from the "Most High"

A very dangerous position to be in, I would imagine.

Of course, I have no direct knowledge, but I don't think I would want to tick-off the Creator.

Not everyone belives like you do. Not everyone believes in a "Most High". It is only a "dangerous position to be in" when this belief system is accepted as true. That is when the fear happens.

Also, I didn't know it was possible to 'tick-off' a creator who claims to be love itself. Love can only be Love. If Love is Anger or Hate, then it is not love - in that moment it is Anger or Hate. I wo:

"God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them." - 1 John 4:16


View Postand then, on 13 June 2013 - 07:46 PM, said:

Ye can be as god....ye shall not surely die.

The Bible admits that we are gods. Here is what on of the prophets said in The Book of Psalms in The Bible:

"I said, 'You are "gods"; you are all sons of the Most High." - Psalm 82:6


Even Jesus himself referenced this. So he obviously believed that we are gods too:

“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.” Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law [Psalm 82:6], ‘I have said you are “gods”’? - John 10:33-34

I wonder why most Christians aren't taught these verses in Church on Sunday. It really makes me think...


We are Gods. We are beautiful, eternal, divine beings. When we love ourselves instead of limiting ourselves or hating ourselves, we allow The Light to shine. The true light - The Light of Truth.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:7-8

#34    Jor-el

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:13 PM

Hi Etu Malku,

I thought I would ask a question here, it is a little elaborate but I would appreciate your input on it.

You are familiar with the biblical approach to the concept of Satan, whom many term Lucifer and you are surely aware of the concept of the creator being a self aware being who created the universe and all within it.

As such you must also be aware that in essence the two are antagonistic in many regards, in that one calls for obedience to a higher ideal foreign from oneself and the other the ultimate in self acclamation and knowledge. You state that Luciferianism is an expression of ultimate free will, where you are not influenced by anything or anyone beside what you feel you want and need, wheras the opposite is true of Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions, where one subjects ones own will to the creator in servitude but also in love.

The bible specifically states that hell is the destination of those who reject Gods leadership in their lives, but I wonder if you could tell me how you see the same ending from your point of view. What is the ultimate ending of the journey for one who believes in the things you do?

I entertain a notion that I picked up from a book by Robert Heinlein, Job: A Comedy of Justice. Where hell is actually a paradise and freedom from a restrictive God who would control us all, maybe an alternate universe where God doesn't play a role. That is why I'm asking the question, wondering on this notion.

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#35    and then

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:20 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 13 June 2013 - 08:13 PM, said:

Why are you quoting Christian biblical scripture . . . have you not read anything here?
The Abrahamic faiths and their scripture has nothing to do with Luciferianism.
If self knowledge indeed ANY knowledge could have improved the human condition past the barbarisms we are still capable of save the message (heeded) of Christ alone then I have not seen it.  Your light bringer is the father of lies.  Bask in his glory if you wish - I'm all full up on crazy meself - hardly need any more :)

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#36    ChloeB

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:26 PM

View PostJor-el, on 13 June 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Hi Etu Malku,

I thought I would ask a question here, it is a little elaborate but I would appreciate your input on it.

You are familiar with the biblical approach to the concept of Satan, whom many term Lucifer and you are surely aware of the concept of the creator being a self aware being who created the universe and all within it.

As such you must also be aware that in essence the two are antagonistic in many regards, in that one calls for obedience to a higher ideal foreign from oneself and the other the ultimate in self acclamation and knowledge. You state that Luciferianism is an expression of ultimate free will, where you are not influenced by anything or anyone beside what you feel you want and need, wheras the opposite is true of Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions, where one subjects ones own will to the creator in servitude but also in love.

The bible specifically states that hell is the destination of those who reject Gods leadership in their lives, but I wonder if you could tell me how you see the same ending from your point of view. What is the ultimate ending of the journey for one who believes in the things you do?

I entertain a notion that I picked up from a book by Robert Heinlein, Job: A Comedy of Justice. Where hell is actually a paradise and freedom from a restrictive God who would control us all, maybe an alternate universe where God doesn't play a role. That is why I'm asking the question, wondering on this notion.

Jorel, you're just the bomb.  See, this is the kind of thing that I just like to see and read.  You have totally opposite beliefs, but you are willing to have an open discussion about others without being judgmental and getting all bent out of shape.  I think you nailed it perfectly in "one calls for obedience to a higher ideal foreign from oneself and the other the ultimate in self acclamation and knowledge" and people come to their beliefs for different reasons.  I would consider the first you mention oppressive and smothering, but you don't see it that way, but people can discuss their views.  I just wanted to say kudos to you, great post.  You inspired me today!  Hehe.

Edited by ChloeB, 13 June 2013 - 10:27 PM.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#37    Jor-el

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostChloeB, on 13 June 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

Jorel, you're just the bomb.  See, this is the kind of thing that I just like to see and read.  You have totally opposite beliefs, but you are willing to have an open discussion about others without being judgmental and getting all bent out of shape.  I think you nailed it perfectly in "one calls for obedience to a higher ideal foreign from oneself and the other the ultimate in self acclamation and knowledge" and people come to their beliefs for different reasons.  I would consider the first you mention oppressive and smothering, but you don't see it that way, but people can discuss their views.  I just wanted to say kudos to you, great post.  You inspired me today!  Hehe.

You know that book I mentioned, you should read it sometime.... :tu:

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#38    ChloeB

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 10:45 PM

View PostJor-el, on 13 June 2013 - 10:37 PM, said:

You know that book I mentioned, you should read it sometime.... :tu:

I think I'd like to.  I was always fascinated with topics that turn preconceived ideas upside down, like what if Satan or the real evil character actually was behind the bible.  It makes you think, which is good to question yourself sometimes.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#39    Etu Malku

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:01 PM

View PostHeru, on 13 June 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

Abrahamic????? Judaism is a true monotheistic religion, no bad guys there.  You mean christian right? Islam I think has a devil so they might be included. But be careful with lumping all religions that share an origin with Abraham as one and the same.
Judaism's foundation began in the Bronze Age and was a polytheistic Semitic religion, with elements of the Babylonian religion and of the worship of Yahweh reflected in the early prophetic books of the Hebrew Bible.
"ha satan" is Hebrew and referred to the Adversary, and to Yahweh's Prosecutor who challenged man's loyalty to Yahweh.
But, once a gain I am not interested in defining and refining the Abrahamic faiths for they have nothing to do with Luciferianism.

View PostDarkwind, on 13 June 2013 - 09:05 PM, said:

Cool, y'all consider yourselves to be Pagans.   A lot of what you are saying falls in the realm of Pantheism and as above, so below and all that kind of thing. Tell me more....Links?
Luciferianism is not pagan, nor polytheistic or even theistic, there are no gods to worship . . . not even a Lucifer for that matter.

View PostHeru, on 13 June 2013 - 09:07 PM, said:

I could say the same about you not reading anything here.
You could, but you would be wrong, I've read everything posted here so far.

Quote

Lucifer comes from the Latin Lux(light) Ferre(bringer or bearer). St. Jerome didn't mistranslate Heylel (the hebrew word in isaiah) its just words dont translate completely  The problem arises from the fact that Lux Ferre was also associated with Venus (the morning star part).  Vulgate bible uses the word Lucifer many times and that word was used to translate many greek words, not just morning star. Venus shows up before sunrise and after sunset. Which is why it was treated as the herald of the day star (sol or sun).
Most of your data is from gross misinterpretations and translations.  Your using Adjectives and verbs like there Nouns and titles.  

Its like people 2,000 years from now saying Jesus was another name for the greek god of victory because sports players mentioned his name and wore the god Nike on there feet.  

Im being hard on you cause you use the symbol of chaos and your paradigm is weak. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted"  Flesh out your system better.
Don't tell me to "flesh out my system better" . . . stop associating Lucifer and Luciferianism with Abrahamic faiths, there is no association except the ones that people want to see

Lucifer is mentioned in Publius Ovidius Naso's "Metamorphoses", which was written in 8 C.E. (Roman) Roman poet Virgil mentions him as far back as 29 BCE. As a Principle Lucifer is Thoth, is Hermes, is masculine Mercury, is feminine Venus, etc.
What do you know of my paradigm? What do you know of me?

View PostJor-el, on 13 June 2013 - 10:13 PM, said:

Hi Etu Malku,

I thought I would ask a question here, it is a little elaborate but I would appreciate your input on it.

You are familiar with the biblical approach to the concept of Satan, whom many term Lucifer and you are surely aware of the concept of the creator being a self aware being who created the universe and all within it.

As such you must also be aware that in essence the two are antagonistic in many regards, in that one calls for obedience to a higher ideal foreign from oneself and the other the ultimate in self acclamation and knowledge. You state that Luciferianism is an expression of ultimate free will, where you are not influenced by anything or anyone beside what you feel you want and need, wheras the opposite is true of Christianity and the other Abrahamic religions, where one subjects ones own will to the creator in servitude but also in love.

The bible specifically states that hell is the destination of those who reject Gods leadership in their lives, but I wonder if you could tell me how you see the same ending from your point of view. What is the ultimate ending of the journey for one who believes in the things you do?
We understand the Universe to consist of the objective universe, that which falls under the laws of physics and is entropic. The other is our subjective universe, that which does not fall under these laws. The objective universe with all its creative aspects and divine-like nature, is what people believe is God, but what is really an unconscious process of unfolding.
What Luciferians and those on the Left Hand Path seek to gain is apotheosis, autothiesm (what we call Itheism) where our lower self is absolved into our Higher most Perfect Self, the Monad. To be the 'god' of our subjective universe free from the objective universe and its delusions of dualism.

Quote

I entertain a notion that I picked up from a book by Robert Heinlein, Job: A Comedy of Justice. Where hell is actually a paradise and freedom from a restrictive God who would control us all, maybe an alternate universe where God doesn't play a role. That is why I'm asking the question, wondering on this notion.
Since everyone is so entertained with the Abrahamic theologies concerning Lucifer/Satan here is an interesting take on the story of Job by Carl Jung.

Quote

The Biblical Job can be seen as a great Lucifer due to his confrontation with God's ruthless cruelty, it will bring about a change in God's behavior (truly an act of great Magick) and present us with a pinnacle of Luciferianism in that man has the ability to stand morally higher than God and thus the creature surpasses the creator!


In the Book of Job God is challenged by ‘one of his sons' Satan which represents the ‘doubting thought'. (In Persian tradition, Ahriman is born of Ahura Mazda's doubting thoughts.) God abandons his faithful servant Job and lets him fall without pity into the abyss of physical and moral suffering by murdering his sons and daughters, taking away his livestock, and eventually making the shattered Job of ill and suffering health.

Job, abandoned without protection and stripped of his rights, whose nothingness thrown in his face at every opportunity evidently appears to be so dangerous to God that he must be battered down with God's heaviest artillery. God's robbery, murder, bodily injury is premeditating and he even denies a fair trial. He shows no remorse, or compassion, but ruthlessness and brutality, he violates the very commandments he dictated to man on Mount Sinai.

What is the reasoning behind God the Almighty's resistance to such a little, puny, and defenseless man such as Job? There must be something which man has the ability to achieve, and this something is the very same something found in the Garden of Eden story with our hero Lucifer as serpent. God sees in Job something of equal in power which causes him to bring out his whole arsenal of destruction and parade it before his opponent. God projects onto Job a sceptic's face which is hateful because it is his own, it questions his omnipotence.

The unconscious mind of Job sees correctly even when conscious reason is blind and impotent.
God's dual nature has been revealed. Job, in spite of his impotence, is set up by Satan to judge over God himself. God unwittingly raises Job's spiritual consciousness by humiliating him, and in doing so God pronounces judgment on himself and gives man moral satisfaction.

God's behavior is that of an unconscious being who cannot be judged morally. God is a phenomenon and, as Job says in the Bible, "not a man." Not human but, in certain respects, less than human, which is how God described the Archdemon of the West Leviathan.

Job realizes God's inner antinomy, and in the Luciferian Light of this gnosis his knowledge attains a divine numinosity . . . Job becomes like a god!

View Postand then, on 13 June 2013 - 10:20 PM, said:

If self knowledge indeed ANY knowledge could have improved the human condition past the barbarisms we are still capable of save the message (heeded) of Christ alone then I have not seen it.  Your light bringer is the father of lies.  Bask in his glory if you wish - I'm all full up on crazy meself - hardly need any more :)
I like Christ actually . . . who can argue with the message of LOVE . . . it's all the other crap that mankind has attached to him and his teachings that get in the way . . . IMO :devil:

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#40    ChloeB

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:14 PM

View PostEtu Malku, on 13 June 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

We understand the Universe to consist of the objective universe, that which falls under the laws of physics and is entropic. The other is our subjective universe, that which does not fall under these laws. The objective universe with all its creative aspects and divine-like nature, is what people believe is God, but what is really an unconscious process of unfolding.

Could you explain that a little more, an unconscious process of unfolding?

View PostEtu Malku, on 13 June 2013 - 11:01 PM, said:

What Luciferians and those on the Left Hand Path seek to gain is apotheosis, autothiesm (what we call Itheism) where our lower self is absolved into our Higher most Perfect Self, the Monad. To be the 'god' of our subjective universe free from the objective universe and its delusions of dualism.

How is this different than Buddhism seeking enlightenment?

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#41    Etu Malku

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Posted 13 June 2013 - 11:27 PM

View PostChloeB, on 13 June 2013 - 11:14 PM, said:

Could you explain that a little more, an unconscious process of unfolding?
The universe is a physical meme. If you're familiar with Pythagoras and his cycle of fifths and the Fibonacci sequence you can see that the objective universe and everything in it unfolds outward or inward.



Quote

How is this different than Buddhism seeking enlightenment?
Oh my! :unsure: We would never surrender our ego, or leave our wife and children for that matter, both are too dear to us.

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#42    GreenmansGod

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 12:36 AM

Do you see the Universe as having living  consciousness that may or not be self aware?  As a Pantheist I see the Universe as a living entity that is self aware because I am aware. As Above, so below means I am the Universe reflecting on itself pretty much.  We are really not that far apart, I don't think. Not all Pagans are polytheist, I am in away and I am not in away. All is under the umbrella of the Universe.  Whether or not there are gods in unimportant. The Universe is its own creator, I am a part of the Universe and if the Universe is "God" then therefore I am "God."  When I am out under a full moon I am not worshiping  gods, I am honoring nature, why, because it seems to be the right thing to do.   It's a Druid thing.    I do it on full moons and new moons because that is when my circle meets.  Everybodies got a different Path.

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#43    ChloeB

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:06 AM

View PostDarkwind, on 14 June 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

Do you see the Universe as having living  consciousness that may or not be self aware?  As a Pantheist I see the Universe as a living entity that is self aware because I am aware. As Above, so below means I am the Universe reflecting on itself pretty much.  

I like that and I kind of feel that way too, that's why I asked about what he meant by the unconscious process of unfolding, what you've touched on right here.  To me, this idea of elevating man up to the level of god could mean man evolving higher and more aware as the universe becoming more aware of itself as it's not yet, mankind as sort of a central nervous system in a larger entity, all part of a process.  The as above so below, you can see it in comparisons to how the brain is similar to the universe in how it forms, how life forms as explosion of cells reproducing at a rapid rate and then slowing down just as our human population has.  I guess I would consider myself to lean toward being a Pantheist as well.  You think about what he quoted Jung as saying about the god in the garden of eden being threatened by something, it is said that after they ate the fruit they would become as gods.  Why was that such a threat?

Edited by ChloeB, 14 June 2013 - 01:07 AM.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#44    ChloeB

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:18 AM

View PostDarkwind, on 14 June 2013 - 12:36 AM, said:

The Universe is its own creator, I am a part of the Universe and if the Universe is "God" then therefore I am "God."  When I am out under a full moon I am not worshiping  gods, I am honoring nature, why, because it seems to be the right thing to do.   It's a Druid thing. I do it on full moons and new moons because that is when my circle meets.  Everybodies got a different Path.

And I think if the universe is God and therefore you are God, it is less about "becoming: God, that apotheosis deal, but "realizing", and being in nature dissolves a lot of those feelings of separations, takes you out of yourself.  I like the Pagan ideas a lot, it was always the gods that I couldn't get on board with too.

Edited by ChloeB, 14 June 2013 - 01:19 AM.

“You've gotta dance like there's nobody watching,
Love like you'll never be hurt,
Sing like there's nobody listening,
And live like it's heaven on earth.”
― William W. Purkey

#45    DeWitz

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Posted 14 June 2013 - 01:25 AM

"-NOT EVEN A LUCIFER, FOR THAT MATTER"

Since childhood I have been an adherent of Lutheranism; the Lutheran church was the closest local house of worship, and my parents would let us walk to Sunday School.
Throughout that time we were never taught about Luther in the terms you have described in your posts. This is really fascinating stuff. Sure, Lutheranism talks a lot about breaking out of the bondage of the will, but always in Christian terms. . . you mention you're not Chris---not, errr, ummm--ohh! "Luciferianism," not "Lutheranism?" Sorry for the confusion. . . Never mind.

In all seriousness, and with all due respect--you, all of us, have a right to our own beliefs--I have one question. If "Lucifer" is a concept, process or uncreated-uncreating entity within, not of, the universe, then: Why call 'it' "Lucifer?" Especially given the quote from you above. In other words, if your belief system has nothing to do with Lucifer (especially if the reference prompts such confusion and consternation), why call it---  ---  ---  "Luciferian?"

It's kind of like promoting a theory about the "Bug-Eyed Spaghetti Monster," then having no reference point within the reality of an actual pasta beast with big peepers.

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