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Four Reasons I Think Jesus Really Existed


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#46    docyabut2

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 06:40 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 21 June 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

According to Walter Cassels ("Supernatural Religion"), the existence of what we now call the gospels cannot be demonstrated at any time before they are mentioned by Irenaeus in about 186 AD (I'd argue slightly earlier for Matthew, and I note that Theophilus of Antioch referred to the Book of John in a letter he wrote shortly before his death in 180 AD.).  The fact that the earliest writings lack apocryphal stories and that these were added with time argues for a fourth century date on our gospels.

I admit that this conflicts with what I have posted on previous threads.  I am now having to rethink some of that.

The earliest datable fragment is 12 verses in Mark (without which Mark would have 666 verses) that were written by Philo of Alexandria in 41 AD when Herod Agrippa ("King of the Jews") visited Alexandria.  Because 666 is the number of "Caesar Nero" (Emperor from 54 to 68 AD) in Jewish numerology, I propose that this fragment about Jesus' hazing and the purple robe, is an add-on, discovered by some writer at a later date and added to the gospel.  This could have happened no earlier than 54 AD.  The victim's name in the hazing incident is Carabbas.  The name is gibberish, but change one letter...  And Philo was a Jew and would have known that.

The fall of the Temple is clearly mentioned in the gospels, placing them after 70AD.  Paul's first letter (1st Corinthians) is mentioned in 1st Clement, placing it before 96 AD.

Matthew and Mark describe an "abomination in a high place" where it "had not ought to be."  That high place being Temple Mount and the abomination being the Temple to Zeus built by the Roman Tenth Legion in 131 AD.  The Legion placed a statue of their mascot - a boar's head - in front of the temple, probably to antagonize the Jews and remind them that they were a conquered people.  In the Bible Jesus solved the problem by ordering a bunch of demons (named "Legion") into 2000 pigs (the number of men in a Roman legion).  The story effectively dates to the Bar Kochba Rebellion of 132-135 AD.  The Apocalypses of Matthew and Mark suggest that the hammer-blow from Rome has not yet fallen, but is imminently expected.

I used to think that this story dated Matthew and Mark to the Bar Kochba Rebeliion, but then I realized that writings of that time contain no apocryphal references.  Those started being added about the time of Eusebius, so now I am thinking that a writer in the fourth century took the second-century version of the gospels and added some embellishments and that is what we now have.

Also, I used to think that Justin the Martyr quoted heavily from our modern gospels.  Then I realized that the stories he was telling were fundamentally different and contained details unknown in our current gospels - like Jesus being enveloped in fire when he emerged from being baptized in the Jordan.  So, our current gospels are not the same as those known to Justin.

While the four modern gospels date from much later, there remain non-canonical gospels from far earlier.  If there is any historical truth to the story of Jesus, it will be found there.  But finding it is not going to be easy.
Doug


Maybe from a psychic but could be some what true. John Mark Jesus`s consin wrote the frist letter of Jesus`s life, he was the beloved at the cross.  He was seventeen at the time of the crucifiction.  He was the compiler of a letter that later became the gospel of Mark, He wrote the letter at the age of fifty nine,  42AD. Paul and Barmbas did not ever meet or know Jesus only what known from John Mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mark


#47    Irrelevant

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 03:54 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 21 June 2013 - 05:29 PM, said:

Yes, I am pushing. You claim to have a prophesy, so tell it!
The nonsensical rambling that you did post makes no sense at all.
I am simply calling your BS.

call what you like,( the answer you seek is in my main post on the first page..)


#48    Irrelevant

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:31 AM

Quote

Jor-el, right here on UM, has done a  lot of work on the astrological aspects.  I haven't had time to go back and dig up all his stuff, but it sure sounds intriguing, though.  One thing does puzzle me, though.  The Jews didn't believe in astrology.  They regarded it as a black art.  I think we need to be very careful about claiming astrological connections for the Bible, unless we're trying to show a later date in something written by a gentile.

But you're right:  those books may have a lot to say.
Doug



No we dont need to be careful because the Astrologers are using highly advance computer programs to predict the positions of the sun and the planets in ancient times...

The Late Rev Don Jacobs ( AKA: moby dick jacobs)  published a ground breaking book called "Astrology's Pew In Church" ( 1981) by the Joshua Foundation ( USA)  at the very year that he died. in it he outlines his careful research indicating that there was a 1in2500 year conjunction of the Sun with several Planets, including Jupiter ( known as the king maker) on 1st march 7bc.

it just so happens that the Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, Barbara Thiering from the university of Sydney in her book " Jesus the Man" page no 58 and page 283 ( published 1992 )had concluded that Jesus was born among the Essenes on 1st of march 7bc, therefore we have 2 independent scholars coming up with the same date! and there is much other evidence to support, but 2 reference is enough for now..


here is a independent link by Hanabul Gudice who quotes some aspects of Moby Dick Jacobs..

link: http://www.stargazers.com/jesus.html

When Was Jesus Born?
by Hannibal Giudice (Published October 1996)
Was Jesus really born on December 25th? If he were a Capricorn, wouldn't he have become a philanthropist or run for public office instead of sacrificing his life? Today most astrologers and historians agree that Jesus was probably not born in December, and he also was not born in 1 AD. Until now, exactly when he was born has been a mystery and the subject of much debate. It wasn't until the advent of main frame computers that an outstanding biblical scholar/ minister/astrologer, Rev. Don Jacobs, was able to accurately replicate the same celestial dyna- mics observed by the ancient Magi that Matthew glorified "center stage" in his gospel account of the nativity. Jacobs describes his research and the date he chose in his book, Astrology's Pew in Church.
According to Jacobs, Jesus was born March 1st in the year 7 BC, at 1:21 a.m. in Bethlehem. The birth chart for this moment in time contains a cluster of six planets in Pisces: the Sun, Moon, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus. (No wonder the fish was used as a symbol for Jesus.) With all this Pisces energy, Jesus was highly spiritual, compassionate, and willing to sacrifice himself for others. A Mercury in Aquarius reveals a revolutionary mind, and Mars in Virgo indicates a tireless worker. Sagittarius rising adds the perfect personality for spreading the truth and for bringing the search for truth and meaning to others. Jacobs used this chart to follow the events which occurred in Jesus' life, and showed what astrological transits he was experiencing each time. But is this really the birth chart of Jesus?
Finally, one of the most compelling mysteries of the past two millennia has been solved. Cuneiform tablets discovered during this century in the ancient astrology school in Sippar (Babylon) reveal that the astrologers were nearly obsessed with noting and tracking movements of an extremely rare heavenly occurrence in the year 7 BC. It was a "once in 25,000 years" celestial event when the two zodiacs (sidereal and tropical) met. It was considered the promise of the birth of an avatar of all avatars. Is this why the Magi journeyed so far to meet the infant Jesus and instruct his parents as to their son's important mission, as well as to warn them of impending danger?
Exhaustive research on this rediscovered birth chart, combined with the latest historical evidence of that period, validate beyond any reasonable doubt that it is indeed the moment of incarnation of the man we have come to know as Jesus, The Christ. The implication of this recent find, once fully realized, will be nearly incalculable. The wealth of information already gleaned would fill volumes. One significant fall-out of this unique revelation will be the emergence and elevation of the use of astrology in the near future to a level unknown since the time of Jesus.
The most significant outcome of this astrological renaissance, however, will be the ability for us to now see the real Jesus illuminated in the light of astrology, the original science of the human experience. We now know what those wise Magi told the parents of Jesus concerning his life's destiny. We also know that he fulfilled his mission in absolute perfection.

Hannibal Giudice (born January 14, 1939) was a professional astrologer and futurist who maintained a full-time practice in Marin County, California, since 1978. He was been a student of history and theology for his entire adult life. Hannibal has researched the Message of the Magi since 1978.

Edited by Irrelevant, 22 June 2013 - 04:33 AM.


#49    Irrelevant

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 04:38 AM

and here is a video to verify aspects about Early Christianity in Iran.

much later Marko Polo is also recorded as to have come this way and referenced the 3 city's of the magi..




#50    Irrelevant

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Posted 22 June 2013 - 08:01 AM

interesting the last words on the video, " that the rest of the world not forget there legacy in early christian history"

yet seams many have...


#51    glorybebe

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:27 PM

View PostRaptor Witness, on 21 June 2013 - 04:34 PM, said:

But what would motivate you to leave everything you have, your family, your job, everything; to go out and make the rest of the world believe in someone who was dead?

That's your motivator, that's what changed history, not words, not speeches ...POWER.

Back then, people didn't live long lives like we do today. The average life expectancy was half or even less. The promise of eternal life, coming from a man who they believe rose from the dead, was the motivation. They weren't stupid, they saw something different. They saw a unique power, and they ran and told everyone else until the day they died.
Not sure why you quoted me.  I am not saying he didn't have power, meaning charisma, but IMO, that does not make him devine it makes him a special person.  Human.

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#52    Arpee

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 04:59 PM

Meh, people will just go to a website agreeing with their views that Jesus exist for more confirmation of the beliefs they ALREADY have. Likewise there are sites with good reasons that he DIDN'T exist as well and that's where those will go for those who already have the belief that he didn't exist.

(Of course there are those who are undecided and those who are convinced from one side to another as well).

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:7-8

#53    Doug1o29

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:19 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 21 June 2013 - 04:30 PM, said:

And that's why none knew in Israel  of the astronomy pointing to the birth of Jesus , whilst the Zoroastrians did. And we with modern science can trace these events right back to the very day ( or so)
I don't know about planetary ephemerii, but the lunar one gives 10:00 a.m. for the eclipse visible in Jerusalem on March 22, 33 AD.  That's an error of about two hours over a span of almost 2000 years.  Not bad.  But knowing where the planets and stars were doesn't tell you much about the culture that observed them.  The Jews didn't practice astrology, but Herod was an Arab - one of the reasons for the lack of popularity of the "Kings of the Jews."  But when the "wise men" said they had seen the star, Herod asked "What star?"  Couldn't have been a very prominent display if the king didn't know about it.  Or maybe, Herod as "King of the Jews" didn't believe in astrology, either.  At any rate, astrological beliefs changed over the centuries and it is now very difficult, if not impossible, to know what was believed 2000 years ago.

Quote

A lot of your work involves those from Rome, Justin the martyr was beheaded and not much of his work is known (from memory) .
Most of Justin's works are no longer extant.  According to Christian tradition, Justin was beheaded along with six companions in 165 AD.  A better estimate is 166 or 167 AD.  At any rate, it was under the persecutions of Marcus Aurelius.

Eusebius lists The First Apology, the Second Apology, Discourse to the Greeks, Hortatory Address to the Greeks, On the Sovereignty of God, the Psalmist, On the Soul and Dialogue with Trypho as his works.  Irenaeus credits him with Against Marcion and Justin mentions his own previous work Refutation of All Heresies.  There are other works credited to him by various ancient writers, but how many are authentic, is unknown.

The Apologies and Dialogue with Trypho are believed to be authentic.  The others are uncertain.  Some dating clues:  The First Apology has a phrase "when Felix was governor of Egypt."  Marcus Antonius Felix was governor of Egypt from September 13, 51 AD to 58 AD.  In the First Apology Justin says "that Christ was born 150 years ago under Cyrenius."  Cyrenius was appointed legate governor of Syria in 6 AD; Judea had recently been added to Syria for census purposes.  That would make Jesus' birth year 6 AD, to match up with the Roman census and the date of the First Apology would be 156 to 159 AD.  There has been lots of argument over that census and it is always possible that Justin was using an approximate, rather than an exact figure for that 150 years.

Justin names his source as the "Memoirs of the Apostles."  He could be referring to the Gospel of Peter, the Gospel According to the Hebrews, or to some unknown gospel.  He did not consider his source to be "holy" or inspired.  Justin is apparently ignorant of some parts of our gospels; he also provides details of Jesus' life that are not in our gospels and sometimes Justin's ideas contradict our gospels.  Justin lists Mary's genealogy but does not list Joseph's, tracing Jesus' descent from David through Mary.  Justin describes the Roman census as applying only to Judea, while Luke applies it to the whole Roman Empire.  Justin states that Jesus was born "under Cyrenius and designates him as governor of Judea, not Syria.  I conclude that Justin is NOT quoting our gospels.

The reference to "most excellent Felix" in Luke, suggests 152 to 159 AD for the writing of Luke and the reference to "most excellent Theophilus" suggests 159 to 180 when Theophilus was Patriarch of Antioch.  The overlap in these two is the year 159 AD.  That is the best estimate for the writing of Luke and its sequel, Acts.

Quote

There is minor discrepancies in the canonised bible accounts, that shows its not made of collusion IMO.
The modern canon has so many historical mistakes and conflicts so badly with other gospels, that it is very hard to believe in a first century date for any of it.  Each gospel takes material available when it was written and adds other stories to it.  When I say that Mark/Matthew was written in 132 to 135 and Luke/Acts in 159 AD, I only mean that one version of them was written at that time.  Later writers redacted them even further.

Quote

There's also the Gospel of Thomas...used by the Coptic Christians, in that the resurrection account differs, it was a spiritual resurrection,  which interestingly enough points  to why Jesus asked him to poke his flesh in the traditional Canonised books..
Thomas is a sayings gospel.  It's very old and is probably among the first gospels ever written.  I hypothesize that it was what Papias was referring to when he described "Mark" - he certainly wasn't describing what we now call "Mark."

Quote

And the way the traditional mt Sinai was founded by Constantine is likewise strange..
What we now call "Mount Sinai" is Gebel Musa (Mount Moses).  It was selected by Constantine's Mother (St. Helena) to be "Mount Sinai."  She learned this in a divine revelation.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#54    Doug1o29

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:33 PM

View PostArpee, on 24 June 2013 - 04:59 PM, said:

Meh, people will just go to a website agreeing with their views that Jesus exist for more confirmation of the beliefs they ALREADY have. Likewise there are sites with good reasons that he DIDN'T exist as well and that's where those will go for those who already have the belief that he didn't exist.

(Of course there are those who are undecided and those who are convinced from one side to another as well).
One must beware of ANY site.  I found a bald-faced statement on an anti-Christian site (Anti-Christian is correct; this was NOT an atheist site.) that Capernum was not a real city in Jesus' day.  Guess again.  Based on archeological excavations, Capernum dates from the second century BC.  One must search for truth and think analytically about BOTH sides of any issue.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#55    Doug1o29

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:50 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 22 June 2013 - 04:31 AM, said:

No we dont need to be careful because the Astrologers are using highly advance computer programs to predict the positions of the sun and the planets in ancient times...

The Late Rev Don Jacobs ( AKA: moby dick jacobs)  published a ground breaking book called "Astrology's Pew In Church" ( 1981) by the Joshua Foundation ( USA)  at the very year that he died. in it he outlines his careful research indicating that there was a 1in2500 year conjunction of the Sun with several Planets, including Jupiter ( known as the king maker) on 1st march 7bc.

it just so happens that the Dead Sea Scrolls scholar, Barbara Thiering from the university of Sydney in her book " Jesus the Man" page no 58 and page 283 ( published 1992 )had concluded that Jesus was born among the Essenes on 1st of march 7bc, therefore we have 2 independent scholars coming up with the same date! and there is much other evidence to support, but 2 reference is enough for now..
The hard part is going to be getting all these conflicting dates to line up.  I would like to do my own study of Jesus' (alleged) life.  But the source material is of such poor quality and contains so many mistakes and inconsistencies (I mean both the traditional canon AND other gospels.) that I may not be able to conclude even that Jesus existed.  And THAT creates the possibility of trying to determine a birth date fro somebody who never existed.  Does anybody see a problem here?

Quote

When Was Jesus Born?
by Hannibal Giudice (Published October 1996)
Was Jesus really born on December 25th?
No.  That date was selected by the Emporer Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.  It was a "compromise" date.  The feuding bishops couldn't decide, so Constantine selected the issue by decree, choosing Mythra's birth date and place to be Jesus' birth date and place.

Christians were killing each other over matters of doctrine, vandalizing pagan churches and sacred groves and otherwise behaving like they do now (Think:  Timothy McVey or, abortion clinics.).  Constantine needed to restore peace to the empire and it little mattered to him which group prevailed.  So matters that couldn't be settled by the church, were settled by the state.

Quote

If he were a Capricorn, wouldn't he have become a philanthropist or run for public office instead of sacrificing his life? Today most astrologers and historians agree that Jesus was probably not born in December, and he also was not born in 1 AD. Until now, exactly when he was born has been a mystery and the subject of much debate. It wasn't until the advent of main frame computers that an outstanding biblical scholar/ minister/astrologer, Rev. Don Jacobs, was able to accurately replicate the same celestial dyna- mics observed by the ancient Magi that Matthew glorified "center stage" in his gospel account of the nativity. Jacobs describes his research and the date he chose in his book, Astrology's Pew in Church.
According to Jacobs, Jesus was born March 1st in the year 7 BC, at 1:21 a.m. in Bethlehem. The birth chart for this moment in time contains a cluster of six planets in Pisces: the Sun, Moon, Venus, Jupiter, Saturn, and Uranus. (No wonder the fish was used as a symbol for Jesus.) With all this Pisces energy, Jesus was highly spiritual, compassionate, and willing to sacrifice himself for others. A Mercury in Aquarius reveals a revolutionary mind, and Mars in Virgo indicates a tireless worker. Sagittarius rising adds the perfect personality for spreading the truth and for bringing the search for truth and meaning to others. Jacobs used this chart to follow the events which occurred in Jesus' life, and showed what astrological transits he was experiencing each time. But is this really the birth chart of Jesus?
Finally, one of the most compelling mysteries of the past two millennia has been solved. Cuneiform tablets discovered during this century in the ancient astrology school in Sippar (Babylon) reveal that the astrologers were nearly obsessed with noting and tracking movements of an extremely rare heavenly occurrence in the year 7 BC. It was a "once in 25,000 years" celestial event when the two zodiacs (sidereal and tropical) met. It was considered the promise of the birth of an avatar of all avatars. Is this why the Magi journeyed so far to meet the infant Jesus and instruct his parents as to their son's important mission, as well as to warn them of impending danger?
Exhaustive research on this rediscovered birth chart, combined with the latest historical evidence of that period, validate beyond any reasonable doubt that it is indeed the moment of incarnation of the man we have come to know as Jesus, The Christ. The implication of this recent find, once fully realized, will be nearly incalculable. The wealth of information already gleaned would fill volumes. One significant fall-out of this unique revelation will be the emergence and elevation of the use of astrology in the near future to a level unknown since the time of Jesus.
The most significant outcome of this astrological renaissance, however, will be the ability for us to now see the real Jesus illuminated in the light of astrology, the original science of the human experience. We now know what those wise Magi told the parents of Jesus concerning his life's destiny. We also know that he fulfilled his mission in absolute perfection.

Hannibal Giudice (born January 14, 1939) was a professional astrologer and futurist who maintained a full-time practice in Marin County, California, since 1978. He was been a student of history and theology for his entire adult life. Hannibal has researched the Message of the Magi since 1978.
All I did was look up the history.  Nothing magical about it.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#56    Doug1o29

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 09:21 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 21 June 2013 - 06:40 PM, said:

Maybe from a psychic but could be some what true. John Mark Jesus`s consin wrote the frist letter of Jesus`s life, he was the beloved at the cross.  He was seventeen at the time of the crucifiction.  He was the compiler of a letter that later became the gospel of Mark, He wrote the letter at the age of fifty nine,  42AD. Paul and Barmbas did not ever meet or know Jesus only what known from John Mark.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mark
The truth is that nobody knows who wrote the gospels.  All we have on Mark is Papias' word and that has a lot of problems.  For example, Papias mentions two people named John.  One was John the Presbyter; I have no idea who he might have been.  The other is claimed to be John the Apostle.  Papias wrote that he had "the words of John ringing in my ears."  As Papias was martyred during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, about 164 to 167 AD, it isn't John the Apostle he was talking about.  Papias also lamented that there were no biographical accounts of Jesus' life.  This from a contemporary of Justin the Martyr.  So the Bishop of Hierapolis, about the year 150 AD had never heard of a biographical account of Jesus' life.  But our modern canon, including Mark, is a biographical account of Jesus' life.  So the claim that Mark was Paul's secretary is wrong.  The person who wrote the Book of Mark lived over a century later.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#57    Doug1o29

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 01:18 PM

View Posttwistagain, on 25 June 2013 - 12:38 AM, said:

For the best available information about the birth (August 21, 7bc), life and teachings, crucifixion (April 7 AD30), and resurrection (April 9) of Jesus of Nazareth, I recommend the URANTIA BOOK, (www.urantiabook).
The solar eclipse that created the "great darkness" mentioned in the gospels occurred on March 22, 33 AD.  The gospels also say that Jesus was executed on Passover, which was on April 3 that year.  So Jesus was executed either on March 22, 33 AD or April 3, 33 AD, if one is to believe the gospels.  Any other date has to include an explanation of what caused the "great darkness."

With all due respect to Urantia, I am pursuing a scholarly approach to this.  Urantia is a fantasy.
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#58    Zaphod222

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostIrrelevant, on 22 June 2013 - 03:54 AM, said:

call what you like,( the answer you seek is in my main post on the first page..)

No there is no such thing in your "main post" on the first page.
Just a lot of discombobled religious rambling.

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#59    Irrelevant

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Posted 25 June 2013 - 02:33 PM

And that would make him 40 years old, if people read my main post on page 1 of this thread about 4  being a indemnity number some may now understand why i posted this info..


#60    Raptor Witness

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 05:40 AM

View Postglorybebe, on 24 June 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

Not sure why you quoted me.  I am not saying he didn't have power, meaning charisma, but IMO, that does not make him devine it makes him a special person.  Human.
It takes far more than "charisma" to make people believe that you're Divine, especially when you start telling the story second and third hand. Stories about someone have no "charisma." It's just a story at that point, and you don't teach charisma to someone. They either have it, or they don't.,

What display of power would you need to see to make you believe in Divinity? A dead relative whose body had started to decompose, coming back to life, perhaps? That would do it for me.
If that guy said, I'll raise you up the same way. I'd believe Him. That's far beyond charisma, and I believe that story.

Posted Image "Make Manifest Destiny a memory ..." 12-7-2011  "When the earth is displaced fully three times at the point of destiny ..." 10-29-2013




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