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Is rape under all circumstances always rape


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#31    _Only

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:30 PM

View Postrashore, on 20 June 2013 - 08:55 PM, said:

How drunk is too drunk to make legally coherent decisions?


Alcohol lowers inhibition. As in, it doesn't make you do something you normally wouldn't want to do. It  makes you do things you normally wouldn't do for whatever reason you thought it was wrong. Basically, it takes away that inner deciding point in your head where you weigh out the negative and positive aspects of your potential decision before acting, and you just go for it with no inhibition.

With this in mind, it becomes easier to legally decide whether a choice made while drunk is coherent or not. Free will, in its purest and most unadulterated form, is involved with alcohol. This is why drunk people say the things they always want to but never do normally, and do all of those stupid things they normally wouldn't want to because it's dangerous. Their free will is going wild.

The point where they can't do anything, or don't even know what's going on, is too drunk. This is what people think 'blackout' drunk means. But they're thinking of passed out, which is a totally different thing. All 'blackout' means is a period of alcohol induced amnesia.

"I think there may be "ghost phenomenon" that may be still not fully understood or dismissed, but that doesn't make it spirits of the dead, anymore than "UFO" means "spaceship" or even "UFO" or "spaceship" is directly related to aliens, or anything else. There is way too much assumption and a baseless reliance on anecdotal lore, like when people assert this or that about the spirit world or the astral plane or Ouija board demons, or religion. I say 'says WHO?'" - Paranormalcy

#32    _Only

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:38 PM

View PostSweetpumper, on 20 June 2013 - 09:34 PM, said:

We don't need to be drunk.

A lot of us do. It's jokes like these that make women think all men are the same. It really bothers me sometimes. I go out and see a pretty girl walk by, and worry if she thinks I am having sex with her in my mind. I'm really not. But I feel dirty just for looking at her. This becomes a rough scenario. I can't be the only one.

"I think there may be "ghost phenomenon" that may be still not fully understood or dismissed, but that doesn't make it spirits of the dead, anymore than "UFO" means "spaceship" or even "UFO" or "spaceship" is directly related to aliens, or anything else. There is way too much assumption and a baseless reliance on anecdotal lore, like when people assert this or that about the spirit world or the astral plane or Ouija board demons, or religion. I say 'says WHO?'" - Paranormalcy

#33    s33ker

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:44 PM

Didn't mean to vilify all men, only the ones that are creepy. Not all males are villians and not all drunken females are ****s.

View PostHeru, on 20 June 2013 - 09:23 PM, said:

Why do you vilify the male?  A woman's body is precious and beautiful, she should respect herself....right? If a woman sleeps around allot she probably has low self esteem and is trying to find self worth right? A female should be cautious around males because all they want is your body... right?  Is the males body perceived the same in society? Are males raised in the same manner?
If I said last night someone was raped, 100% forced rape.  A female was invited to a males house and they proceeded to drink.  Did you place the female as the victim or the male?
And as for the rest of your post?..does the woman know she is going to be raped before accepting a drink at the man's house?
Some men do have a hidden agenda , and some women lie..right!
My question to you is, what if the female were 13yrs old? Who would be in the wrong in your opinion then.


#34    F3SS

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Posted 20 June 2013 - 10:56 PM

View Post_Only, on 20 June 2013 - 10:38 PM, said:



A lot of us do. It's jokes like these that make women think all men are the same. It really bothers me sometimes. I go out and see a pretty girl walk by, and worry if she thinks I am having sex with her in my mind. I'm really not. But I feel dirty just for looking at her. This becomes a rough scenario. I can't be the only one.

Relax man. She knows you are. Seriously though, relax. A joke is a joke and women understand that men have baser instincts but that it doesn't mean they're all chauvinistic rapists. Real women like real men. Fake women like fake men and prissy women like metro men. Settle down, be yourself and don't worry. If you're decent it will show.

View Posts33ker, on 20 June 2013 - 10:44 PM, said:

Didn't mean to vilify all men, only the ones that are creepy. Not all males are villians and not all drunken females are ****s.

And as for the rest of your post?..does the woman know she is going to be raped before accepting a drink at the man's house?
Some men do have a hidden agenda , and some women lie..right!
My question to you is, what if the female were 13yrs old? Who would be in the wrong in your opinion then.

That's an absurd question to pose to anyone and it is an entirely different subject. This isn't To Catch a Predator.


#35    Ashotep

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:25 AM

I'll agree some women do lie about being raped just to save face.  As the mother of a son I rate those women right up there with a rapist.  I take accusing someone of rape very seriously and women like that make me sick.

EDIT: A lie like that makes it hard on women that have really been raped to be believed.

Edited by Hilander, 21 June 2013 - 12:28 AM.


#36    pallidin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:26 AM

Right. This can stay a heathy, productive discussion regarding the OP's question.

No need to go on a pedophile(sp) tangent.

I find it interesting that both males and females can lose sexual control while "drunk" But that seems to be somewhat "expected"


#37    pallidin

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 12:32 AM

View PostHilander, on 21 June 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

I'll agree some women do lie about being raped just to save face.  As the mother of a son I rate those women right up there with a rapist.  I take accusing someone of rape very seriously and women like that make me sick.

Indeed, it's not only males that are "rapists"

Curiously, "society" deems female-male rape as far less of an issue than male-female.
Society say's to the women, "how sad"
Society say's to the young man... "you got lucky"

Twisted, I know.

EDIT: Tough subject.

Edited by pallidin, 21 June 2013 - 12:34 AM.


#38    darkmoonlady

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:14 AM

Seeing as the last 10,000 years plus or so human males could as Patton Oswalt says "Have rape for breakfast" I guess a decade or so of male scrutiny is just payback don't you think?

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#39    and then

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:30 AM

View Post_Only, on 20 June 2013 - 08:10 PM, said:

'Blacked out' means you don't remember any of the events happening. It doesn't mean you are unconscious, just that you don't remember the actions you took. 'Black out drunk' people are fully aware (well, in a severely drunk state).

Long story short, 'blackout' just means alcohol induced amnesia; not passed out.

This is a bad spot to be in to sue someone.. if she wasn't a girl, and predispositions for rape didn't exist, like the OP is getting at. She could have very well willingly had sex with those dudes, and just plain didn't remember because she remembers absolutely nothing. So she just assumes she didn't want to have sex? So it's left to the jury; but I think I already know how they would decide.

But if it was up to me, if you don't remember what happened, you are in no place to have people arrested. That's just wrong.
Having had a few I can agree 100% with this description.  They are scary darned things.  Meeting people later who obviously know you - well - and you don't remember them at all.  But I think that while a person is functional in this state they are also apt to be bound by the same morals as when sober.  That is, they aren't going to be too out of character from when they aren't drunk - just more "casual"....

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#40    danielost

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:44 AM

Read my thread two crimes you have to prove your innocent of.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#41    s33ker

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:46 AM

View PostF3SS, on 20 June 2013 - 10:56 PM, said:

Relax man. She knows you are. Seriously though, relax. A joke is a joke and women understand that men have baser instincts but that it doesn't mean they're all chauvinistic rapists. Real women like real men. Fake women like fake men and prissy women like metro men. Settle down, be yourself and don't worry. If you're decent it will show.



That's an absurd question to pose to anyone and it is an entirely different subject. This isn't To Catch a Predator.
My question was regarding a 13yr old with issues the poster mentioned. You are the one who jumped in and dragged predators into it..


#42    F3SS

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:52 AM

View Posts33ker, on 21 June 2013 - 02:46 AM, said:


My question was regarding a 13yr old with issues the poster mentioned. You are the one who jumped in and dragged predators into it..
I must've missed something


#43    Zaphod222

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 04:40 AM

View PostHeru, on 20 June 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I was reading an article about rape in the military http://news.yahoo.co...-220109527.html

And it got me thinking on how when someone cries rape, the women is always viewed as an innocent victim and the male or males are evil sex crazed fiends.


Not always. It depends on the legal and social system. E.g. under islamic law (Shariah), four (4) witnesses who are 1) adult, 2) male and 3) muslim are required to prove that a rape occured. A woman`s claim does not suffice. She would instead be sentenced for extramarital sex.

Needless to say, in jurisdictions where Shariah is the law, rape does not occur.

So, careful with generalizations about "always".

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#44    Taun

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 10:45 AM

View Postouija ouija, on 20 June 2013 - 08:26 PM, said:

The person at fault here is the NCO, surely? You have to wonder why he/she accepted the woman's accusation.
If he was in prison and dishonourably discharged, surely he was not on any pay grade? 15yrs? Seriously?

The NCO was in a position where SHE had to react to one of her soldiers making a criminal complaint (NCO's in the Military have certain limited Police 'powers' for uniformed personnel)... She had no option but to report the event, and detain the accused...
She also had no say in the Court Martial decision, though she took the stand and reported what she saw of the situation...

During a DD (Dishonorable Discharge) with prison time, an enlisted soldier is almost always reduced to PVT E1 (the lowest paygrade) and all pay and benefits suspended... The actual DD is initiated at release from prison...  In this case when the NCO heard about
the female soldiers comments and actions, she pushed for the case to be re-considered, and after about 6 months or so the male soldier was released, reinstated at his old rank and the DD removed... The female soldier was actually never punished, so far as I heard...
And yes 15 years is  not uncommon in military rape convictions - if not longer, I have heard of 25 years...

There is an old saying "If you are guilty you are better off in a civilian court, and if innocent better off in a military court"... The last part is not always true, but the first part often seems to be...


#45    regi

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Posted 21 June 2013 - 02:21 PM

View PostHeru, on 20 June 2013 - 07:09 PM, said:

I was reading an article about rape in the military http://news.yahoo.co...-220109527.html

In the article above, the example they had was a woman who was drinking with 3 football players. The next day she woke up with bruises and no crime no foul so far. Later she was told by friends and social media she was raped. But she has no memory of that night and didnt file charges till much later.
There was no evidence of her level of toxicity nor any rape kit done, also the witness says she has no memory of what happened.  The only ones who are 100% sure it was rape was her friends and social media, who weren't even present.  Also, is it so inconceivable that maybe while she was drunk she consented to having sex but latter from being the topic of conversation on the internet and from friends she said it was rape to save face? Just as it is equally as likely she was raped.


The apparent reason charges weren't filed against the men at the time was because it was decided there wasn't enough evidence to support charges.
The article states that it was after a new investigation that "wiretapped conversations" were obtained, so it appears that with that new evidence in correlation w/the original evidence was then considered enough to support one charge of rape, one sexual assault, and one re: a false official statement.

I imagine rape is usually hard to prove in a situation like that because if a person is in a semi-conscious or unconscious state, there may not even be bruises present, and a rape kit could only confirm that sex occurred.





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