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Where are YOU on this map ?


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#46    Zaphod222

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Posted 10 August 2013 - 12:04 PM

View Postslaughtr, on 24 June 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

All you skeptic folks I hope someday an alien ship comes and zaps your ass up and let's see if defending an article matters you say some of the most dumbest bull I've ever heard.Truth could hit you in the face and you still wouldn't believe it.Every case I have studied the similarities are there and really why would somebody lie about being snatched up damn......Since you all have the answer stay off the site making dumb comments....fake know it alls go work for nasa then they need you.

Threatening the disbelievers with hell so that they join your church, are we?

An age-old tactic, but not an argument.

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#47    ChrLzs

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 12:34 AM

View PostSteve3951, on 09 August 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Chris:
I already told you what my name was - you even quoted it - it stands for Charles (Charlez, ChrLzs).

Quote

You’re just an anonymous voice in the wilderness who says: “well I waited 72 hours.” This article has appeared around the world for over a year
So?  Is that to any world-wide acclaim, any peer review? - feel free to post some reviews of it from credible sources.
It's simply about content, verifiability and quality of research.

Quote

and I was never notified that I had any obligation to jump through your hoops.
You have no obligation to reply whatsoever.  But that article is here at a discussion forum that prides itself on investigating mysteries.  And now this 'mystery' is getting a searchlight turned upon it. If you wish to defend it, so be it, but please stick to the topic and answer questions, like all those I shall repeat below..

Quote

Ok –it’s great that you’re Chris-but who is Chris from downunder?
Why is that important to you?  Do you know what focusing on the person rather than the information is called?
But to humour you - you haven't bothered to Google me? - I'm always ChrLz or ChrLzs and I hang out at many forums, from this one to Apollohoax, from the Bad Astronomy forum (now Cosmoquest) to AboveTopSecret, JREF.  You can see my work at many places.  I also have a provable background in the sciences, I teach photography and astronomy and computing/IT - all of this can be verified with moderators if necessary.  But as I and Badeskov keep repeating, the point *isn't* who has the most experience - it's simply about what you post here and now - it's either right and credible and defendable.. or it isn't.

Quote

With all the rain down there in Queensland, AU-- your comments are a little soggy.
Seriously?  I shall refrain from responding to that sort of comment..

Quote

I haven’t really made any determination that your voice carries any weight since it seems that you’re just some impatient kid with a lot of time on his hands.
It seems, from the content of these walls-of-text posts and your refusal to actually address most of the points made by Badeskov, me and others on this thread, that the reason for your inability to make a determination might come from a different direction..

Quote

I'll get back to you on some of your other issues like F. Lee Bailey -who was a Polygraph Expert--If you check he used it on several occasions
A 'Polygraph Expert' with Capitals no less?  Wow, and he did it on TV - that certainly means it shouldn't be questioned!  Anyway, you do that.  In particular, rather than introducing more strawmen and distractions, address these simple facts, one by one.
1. Is there such a thing as a false memory? (hint - look up regression hypnosis) :)
2. Is there such a thing as a delusion?
3. Is there such a thing as an incorrect, but genuinely-believed interpretation of an event?


Given any or all of those:
4. In what way would a lie detector be useful in a case like this?
5. Would a person who believed their own story, pass such a test?
6. Given that, what do the results of a lie detector test have to do with reality?
7. Are polygraphs accepted as evidence in most US jurisdictions?  Why not?  (see above..)
8. Is F. Lee Bailey disbarred in any US states?
9. What was the actual published result of Mr Bailey's polygraph test on Betty?  In FULL please, including all assumptions. provisos, technical considerations.

Also, you were politely asked about:

10. You claim there was 'physical evidence' on their car that was unexplainable/alien.  Please show that evidence.
11. Does the American Psychological Association recommend regression hypnosis?


Finally, why are you now focusing on trying to support the 'map', when earlier, YOU said this:

Quote

I wonder if I showed most of the readers here a map of a few dozen stars, could anyone reproduce it, from memory, after a supposedly traumatic event like an alien abduction, and do so with enough accuracy that it would be recognizable?
Umm.. so .. which side are you on?  Why, then, would you be so impressed by a vague (and highly disputable) 'match'?

If you would really like to focus on that map, I'm happy to go into your 'analysis' in some detail, but given you have already dismissed the content of the map anyway, it seems a moot point and a wast of time, even if you did it properly.  Doing it properly would, instead of involving posting huge walls of text containing mostly irrelevant data, show:
- the methodology being used
- actual geometric correlation data
- error ranges and statistical analysis
- controls and null hypothesis information, inc. showing this same technique used on random data..

And besides, if you don't answer all the first set of questions, why should we move on?

My garden is already magical and beyond beautiful - I do not need to invent fairies... - ChrLzs

The truth ONLY hurts when it slaps you in the face after you haven't done proper homework and made silly claims... - ChrLzs

#48    badeskov

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 03:03 AM

Chrlzs,

Good post! I am looking forward to seeing the replies to your questions.

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#49    Harte

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:01 PM

View PostSteve3951, on 04 August 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Re: And may I suggest that the 'story' might be a little more accurately reported if, instead of restating claims as if they actually happened, you make it clear they are claims.  
I'm 100% with you on this much, at least.

View PostSteve3951, on 04 August 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

As far as defending my theory--stay tuned for further developments as i address other crazy comments posted here...
Steve,

Since you state your above plans for multiple responses, try this. When you read a post you want to respond to, as you did several times in your post I'm quoting above, look at the lower right corner of the post you're reading and find the "quote" tab.

That makes your posts far easier to follow.

Use "multiquote" to respond to more than one post at a time, or just use "quote" on all of them. If you do the latter, I'd suggest right-clicking the quote button and opening each post response in a different tab.  That way you can copy each post - with your response - onto the first response, accomplishing the "multiquote" without having to figure out the "multiquote" button.

Then hit "Post" when you're done, just like usual.

Re-reading the above, I'm confident that it is crystal clear! LOL

Just a suggestion.

View PostSteve3951, on 04 August 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

P.S. The estimated age of the universe is 13.7 Billion years, half of the stars are over 10 Billion years old, and its been discovered that planets are ubiquitous (numerous) throughout the cosmos.
All of which indicates the statistical improbability of us being discovered by any alien race at all.

Just in our own galaxy, there are too many places to look.

A single alien ship, capable of instantaneous travel between stars would reach only half of the stars in the galaxy in something like 1400 years (I forget the actual number - I calculated it a couple of times in the past though.)  That's without allowing even a second to look around at each star before proceding to the next.

Obviously, the time is cut in half for two exploratory ships, quartered for four ships, etc.

Encountering a sentient race in that way would stop each explorer though, can't we assume?  And if there are a great many sentient species in our galaxy, when does the exploring species stop exploring and start studying the finds?

The odds are vastly in favor of our never even being found in those circumstances.

View PostSteve3951, on 04 August 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

Dan Wirtheimer at SETI believes that the age of first contact with an alien civilization will be at least billion years. Millions of years is more likely...
From this I can only assume that you mean either that we will encounter a civilization that is a billion years old (ridiculous on the face of it,) or that an alien "first contact" race might be a billion years old.  I wonder what that means?  No species or genus can exist unchanged for a billion years and be anything but stuck in an eternal ecological niche (like the crocodilians.)  Humans have been around, in some form, for over 2 million years.  It's not a billion, but no culture has lasted even a fraction of the time that the genus Homo has existed.

Considering the age of the stars we can see, it would be an unbelievable coincidence if we were to even find that our civilization existed in the same time period as other "advanced" civilizations.  That is, given all the time that has passed, it is far more likely that any species that could accomplish regular interstellar travel would have existed in the past - before the Earth was even formed.

By the way, what someone "thinks" about Xenopology, when most of their thinking concerns EM frequencies and their lives hinge on empty hopes, is not really all that convincing, tell the truth.  Appeals to authority, especially assumed but unestablished authority, are pretty transparently fallacious.  Admittedly, however, there are no authorities on Xenopology. :w00t:

Harte

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Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
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#50    Harte

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Posted 11 August 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostSteve3951, on 09 August 2013 - 06:13 PM, said:

Chris and Badeskov  

The last thing you two can call yourselves is the voice of authority--so please show everyone your credentials to prove that your superior to Walt Webb, Stanton Friedman, Kathleen Marden, J. Allen Hynek  Huffer, Jeffrey Kretsch, Terence Dickinson or a host of others.
I'm new to this UFO stuff, at least in modernity.  However, IIRC, Hynek merely stated that both Hills recounted under hypnosis the same story.  IOW, reported on the investigation.

Do you have a link to his report about it?  I understand he published his thoughts in one of his UFO books for the masses.

I think, again, you must be empty handed if an appeal to authority is the best you can do.

What about the way Betty changed her description of the abductors?  Originally, they reminded her of Jimmy Durante, you know.

Posted Image

Re. the repetitive appeals to authority, I seem to recall several esteemed members of academia being convinced by Uri Geller of his paranormal abilities.

Of course, they realized they been duped once The Amazing Randi duplicated every one of Geller's illusions for them at a later date.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Anybody like Coleridge?

#51    ChrLzs

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 06:47 AM

All well said, Harte, but may I correct you on one small item..

View PostHarte, on 11 August 2013 - 10:01 PM, said:

Quote

Steve3951, on 04 August 2013 - 11:46 AM, said:
Re: And may I suggest that the 'story' might be a little more accurately reported if, instead of restating claims as if they actually happened, you make it clear they are claims.
  
I'm 100% with you on this much, at least.
I'm glad you agree, because they were my words, not Steve's - he didn't quote them correctly.  A delightful touch of irony..!  :D

It just goes to show that correct quoting and attribution, just like getting someone's name right, requires a lot more attention to detail than Steve seems willing to put in...

BTW, whether or not he returns, I will try to find time to come back later and show in some detail just how horribly flawed that map 'analysis' is.

In summary we have:
- a couple of anecdotal stories that didn't match from the start, and changed over time.
- 'verification' of one of those changed stories from a questionable source using discredited and inapplicable technology (the polygraph) *after* another discredited technique was used (regression hypnosis) and after many, many years had passed
- a 'map' that does not match up to anything recognisable, despite the ability to use the entire sky and 3d viewing angles from any direction, and that supporters concede is unlikely to be accurate anyway
- no other supporting evidence


If I can paraphrase/analogise...

Your honour, given that there is:
- no crime 'victim'
- no other credible witnesses
- no evidence of an actual crime, let alone a felony
- the map proffered to this court does not accurately represent an actual location, let alone a location at which the non-existent crime or felony might have taken place
...I would respectfully suggest that this be thrown out of court and my clients - the real aliens residing at Zeta Reticulum - be allowed to continue living on their planet as they have done for millenia, never bothering anyone and never coming remotely near Earth...


My garden is already magical and beyond beautiful - I do not need to invent fairies... - ChrLzs

The truth ONLY hurts when it slaps you in the face after you haven't done proper homework and made silly claims... - ChrLzs

#52    Harte

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 03:20 PM

View PostChrlzs, on 12 August 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

All well said, Harte, but may I correct you on one small item..

I'm glad you agree, because they were my words, not Steve's - he didn't quote them correctly.  A delightful touch of irony..!  :D

It just goes to show that correct quoting and attribution, just like getting someone's name right, requires a lot more attention to detail than Steve seems willing to put in...
Damn!  My bad.

That's what I get for trying to give him at least some credit!

View PostChrlzs, on 12 August 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

BTW, whether or not he returns, I will try to find time to come back later and show in some detail just how horribly flawed that map 'analysis' is.

Sure, but don't do it for my sake, as I haven't gotten past Betty's Jimmy Durante gaffe.  No need to go past that little factoid in any case.



Harte

Edited by Harte, 12 August 2013 - 03:25 PM.

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Anybody like Coleridge?

#53    badeskov

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Posted 12 August 2013 - 09:48 PM

View PostChrlzs, on 12 August 2013 - 06:47 AM, said:

<snip>

In summary we have:
- a couple of anecdotal stories that didn't match from the start, and changed over time.
- 'verification' of one of those changed stories from a questionable source using discredited and inapplicable technology (the polygraph) *after* another discredited technique was used (regression hypnosis) and after many, many years had passed
- a 'map' that does not match up to anything recognisable, despite the ability to use the entire sky and 3d viewing angles from any direction, and that supporters concede is unlikely to be accurate anyway
- no other supporting evidence

<snip>

Pretty much sums it up! I have no idea why people keep peddling this imaginary tale as it was gospel.

Cheers,
Badeskov

"Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a pretty and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside, thoroughly used, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming: Wow!! What a ride!". Said to to Dean Karnazes by a running buddy.

#54    Steve3951

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Posted 18 August 2013 - 08:12 PM

Badeskov:

Here you are making two huge assumptions, assumptions that cannot be validated in any way, shape or form:

Frankly, I believe in neither and I have not seen any compelling arguments to persuade me that I am wrong. But since Chrlzs has already put out some good arguments*, I will focus on the star map.

These are false assumptions on your part--- because you have no real depth of knowledge pertaining to their case.

*(I get to his this weekend)


1. That Barney and Betty Hill were actually abducted

I realize that you want to challenge the abduction of Betty and Barney Hill-and it seems that your line of questioning is more due to the fact that you’re less familiar with their case. The UFO phenomenon has thousands of cases and their case is only one. Project Blue Book rejected everything they touched-and you should consider reading Dr. J. Allen Hynek’s book-The UFO Experience-A Scientific Inquiry and his comments about their case first before you offer your opinions about their case. If you had already read John Fuller’s book-The Interrupted Journey or Captured someone might be more willing to accept your views-but since it’s obvious that you haven’t-your arguments don’t carry a lot of weight.

Why does the Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) redact page after page when they are forced to release UFO documents? –You know the blacked out pages that say--/////////////…… Ever heard of the French COMITA Report?

There are many UFO trace evidence cases that have been documented by Ted Phillips.

While you want to claim that there isn’t any supporting evidence to their abduction—there is
From there abduction experience

Physical evidence of their abduction: (recent e-mail)

Hi Kathy,


I have a question regarding the 12-18 spots on the trunk-did they ever take pictures of them?


They also report that they could feel these buzzing sounds in their auto. (shiny spots on trunk) there were 12-18 mysterious shiny half dollar sized spots on the trunk of their car, with very strange bizarre magnetic properties that spun around a compass like crazy.

Thanks,

Steve

Response

Betty discovered highly polished concentric circles on the trunk of her car that hadn’t been there the previous day. They were in the exact location where the Hills had heard buzzing sounds striking their trunk after the UFO shifted above their vehicle. I observed them only two days after the Hill’s close encounter. My childhood neighbor, a physicist, had advised Betty to take a compass to her car to determine whether or not it would react in an unusual way, not just fluctuate over the metal surface or in proximity to the battery. Betty discovered the circular marks and placed the compass over them, which caused the needle to whirl. Barney confirmed Betty’s finding when he experimented with the compass. But time and time again, debunkers state that Barney did not observe anything unusual. Their trick was to quote a statement of denial that Barney made to Betty because he was irritated with her at that moment. He wanted to forget “the whole thing” and was being disagreeable for that reason. The fact is that he told Dr. Benjamin Simon, “I put the compass close to it (the spots), and the compass would spin and spin, and I could move the compass as few inches to a spot on trunk that did not have a spot and the compass would drop down, and I could not understand this.”  

Somehow it didn't cross our minds to photograph them. None of us took many pictures in those days. I spoke to Walt Webb about this and he might have forgotten to look at them, or if he did, he only glanced at them. But I am one of several witnesses who saw them. The Matthew Reed abduction case that was investigated by MUFON's Star Team showed a high magnetic field reading on the trunk of his car.


There is nothing known to this day to describe or to reproduce this strange anomaly. It remains a mystery-and the only explanation is that they were trying to disable their car with possible magnetic beam that shook their car on impact.    

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Physical Evidence: The tips of Barney’s shoes were scuffed up-he was dragged to their landed spacecraft. This is not an assumption-(Report Pease AFB). The tips of his shoes would never be scuffed up while driving home.This is physical evidence from their case.


Physical Evidence: Betty’s dress

In their book Captured there is a chapter on the topic of the dress that she wore on the evening that they returned home. They discovered that an unknown pink powdery substance on her dress. It was also torn. She didn’t rip her own dress. The dress was put through chemical analysis and the powder substance found on her dress was determined to be strange in relation to its inorganic elemental content. It appeared to be high in undetermined organic hydrocarbons. The Lab test was conducted at Dubois Chemicals.

Physical evidence: infection and removal of 21 warts from an apparatus used on Barney Hill. (Page-122 Captured!) Barney Hill later developed a strange circular pattern of wart like growths on this abdomen-from some unknown device they used on him. Their lab equipment wasn’t sterile. They were large ¾ inch warts-that became inflamed and had to be surgically removed by a medical physician. This is more of an aftermath event that is not normally known—but it is physical evidence of exposure to an unknown bacterial source as a result of his medical examination by non-human creatures.  

Radar Images and paper trail:

They also obtained radar documentation of an unknown craft leaving the same area at around at 2:14 AM. The best information on their case is John Fuller’s The Interrupted Journey, and Marden and Friedman’s book Captured. I understand your personal doubts that it couldn’t have taken place-but highly respected people have already been down this road-as Walter Webb and others, so my own opinion is that you lack sufficient detail of their case to render any worthwhile position.

There are numerous accounts of sightings that have taken place around the world that involve the “Greys”  and the Wilson’s story is  just one of them. I came across his story-an encounter with an anecdotal story-See article and my web site. The question posed is obvious-Is this real or is it fake-Is there really a triangle near the Big Dipper or not? To validate I used two things an interactive virtual telescope that uses Hubble images (My Sky) and Norton’s Star Atlas (Map 9 and 11). I realize that this doesn’t mean anything to you-but it does to thousands of people into astronomy. This is empirical evidence by observation, and information is based upon actual research and talking to eyewitnesses and listening to tapes of their hypnosis sessions with Dr. Simon.

See attached article: Hypnosis and Memory

This might help explain her vivid recall and ability to recall the images of the star map. It was unusually accurate due to the post hypnotic suggestion given to her by Dr. Benjamin Simon. She was instructed to draw the star map, the star map was 3-D. We have stereoscopic vision and can sense depth. Nobody told her to draw her star map three dimensionally. She was simply drawing it on a 8 x 11 piece of paper. It was freehand and she wasn’t a skilled artistian-so your complaint is baseless. Does the average person normally draw things 3-d?

Hypnosis And Memory Click here: Hypnosis And Memory

Hypnotic hypernesia is the unusually vivid and complete recall of information from memory while under hypnosis. The present article reviews the extensive literature on the subject and the longstanding controversy as to whether hypnosis can enhance memory at all.

One fact does seem clear, hypnosis does not help subjects recall nonsense data or information without meaning, such as random numbers and words. When it comes to meaningful phrases, sentences, paragraphs, etc., hypnosis does aid recall to some extent. If the words evoke considerable imagery, as poetry often does, hypnosis seems to help recall even more. Finally, the recall of meaningful visual images and connected series of images is helped most of all by hypnosis. In fact, there is some evidence that eidetic imagery, that vivid, near-total recall of images, which is almost exclusively a talent of childhood, can be recovered by mature subjects under hypnosis. There do not seem to be any theories that explain all these effects of hypnosis on memory.


(Relinger, Helmut; "Hypnotic Hypernesia," American Journal of Clinical Hypnosis, 26:212, 1984.)

2. If they were abducted, that the star map is a correct representation of what Betty saw.

Many years ago Carl Sagan said that “The argument rests on how well the maps agree and the significance of the comparison.”
There is a very strong correlation to actual stars as observed from Earth and 20 Leo Minor is the Hub star of the star map.

As you are aware—this case also involves the Wilson’s-who are an experiencer couple who have been unwillingly involved in this since early childhood. The information discovered through the Wilson’s account 32 years later was direct contact with the Greys-the same species that abducted Betty and Barney Hill on September 19-20th 1961. The Wilson’s case took place in July 1993 in Portland, Oregon.  If this wasn’t true-how do you explain the discovery of the triangle? There are 88 constellations—but we need to pay attention to only ONE! Erik Wilson’s unique conversation is the key that opens the door to decipher Betty Hill’s star map. They volunteered critical new information that a triangle close to the Big Dipper would help locate their star, and now YOU have seen it too.  Please by all means look up the three stars on SIMBAD and plot them out on some grid paper.
The triangle was found because it was investigated, then validated by direct observation, and later confirmed by using SIMBAD. The acid test was to validate the existence of a high quality spectral type G star directly to the right of the triangle as drawn by Betty Hill. This flushes Charles's randomness theory.  This was a day one-a beginning event that would lead to the others as it came together. Like a puzzle it came together piece by piece.

Betty passed a polygraph*.



Betty Hill passed a polygraph administered by F. Lee Bailey (Yes-he was an expert and still is)

And now is back practicing law.


In some countries polygraphs are used as an interrogation tool with criminal suspects or candidates for sensitive public or private sector employment. US law enforcement and federal government agencies such as the FBI and the CIA and many police departments such as the LAPD use polygraph examinations to interrogate suspects and screen new employees. Within the US federal government, a polygraph examination is also referred to as a psychophysiological detection of deception (PDD) examination.

http://www.advancedp...m.au/faq.htm#Q9

How accurate is the polygraph test? (Australia FAQ)


Recent research reveals that the accuracy of the new computerised polygraph system is close to 100 percent. In the past 75 years, over 250 studies have been conducted on the validity, accuracy and reliability of polygraph testing (American Polygraph Association 1996 Polygraph Issues & Answers). Based on twelve separate studies involving 2174 real cases since 1980, evidence suggests that qualified polygraph examiners are 98 percent accurate in their overall decisions (Norman Ansley, "The validity and reliability of polygraph decisions in real cases", Polygraph, v.19, 1990). Research clearly indicates that when administered by a competent polygraph examiner, the polygraph test is one of the most accurate means available to determine deceptive and non-deceptive (truthful) responses. Continued research and development is ongoing by Advanced Polygraph in the field of Forensic Psychophysiology to ensure we remain a leading agency in accurately identifying the correct outcomes of a polygraph examination.

By all means of respect, but this makes no sense whatsoever. It merely illustrates that you actually don't really know what you are talking about. She drew a number of stars and you immediately jump onto that it was a correct representation. A correct representation of what exactly, I would ask.

Like I said plot it out or buy Norton's Star Atlas on line
The 12 primary stars (6 trade and 6 exploration stars)-all F-G stars) plus the other background stars shown on the star map.



Suggest you buy a copy of Norton’s Star Atlas and look at Map 9

1. What are the "error bars" in her representation, i.e. how accurately was her representation?


She drew the star map from memory and one alignment problem is the placement of position #8 to its actual star chart position in reality-it’s actual position is above the triangle on the right not left and only  30 minutes off on its Right Ascension.  However the RA and Declination of these three stars are dead on. You can judge the directional orientation and  yourself to see that its a very good match –with 6 CVn at the top.


2. Where was that map seen from? I.e., seen from Earth (as Majorie Fish assumed), seen from somewhere else?

FYI: Fish never said it was Earth!

Inside the craft and a good vantage point to view the star map is from North America-you can even use the spot that they were abducted at—on the gravel road- off the highway  3 in New Hampshire.  Fish said her map was observed from an unknown ‘slice of space” that has never been identified.


3. What was the rotation of said map and what was missing from it?

It displayed the Northern Hemisphere and it was a 3-d image created on the spot to answer her impromptu question: Where do you come from?

Frankly, assuming something like that is authentic is, at best, incredibly naive. But lets look more, here is a look from Earth towards the sky. Please do elaborate on how you cannot fit anything you like and draw any star map you could possibly dream up and make it fit somewhere in the night sky, especially when you have all the freedom you want in scaling and error ranges.

Try using specific Right Ascension and Declination for all of the positions as I have done. Plot it out…
What we have to work with is what she was shown

Charles point that it’s not admissible in court is irrelevant because she wasn’t charged with any crime-and it was just a TV program that Bailey was doing.  He also forgot to mention is use in Australia!



One example of the night sky picture:



Your picture is non descript and both of you could claim it’s the night sky where you live-so it’s meaningless. My point is that Erik Wilson, an abductee had a highly unusual one on one conversation with a Grey-who directed his attention to the Big Dipper as a specific point of reference-then mentioned that a “triangle” was on the left, and a triangle was discovered as a result below the Big Dipper.  Want provide just one name of a star and its RA and Dec shown in your picture?  












#55    DieChecker

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Posted 19 August 2013 - 05:04 AM

View PostSteve3951, on 04 August 2013 - 01:46 AM, said:

See Rogue Scholar entry...June 24th.
On the plus side, if this is all the map these aliens have made, they can't be exceptionally more technically advanced then us. Maybe only a couple hundred years.

P.S. The estimated age of the universe is 13.7 Billion years, half of the stars are over 10 Billion years old, and its been discovered that planets are ubiquitous (numerous) throughout the cosmos. Dan Wirtheimer at SETI believes that the age of first contact with an alien civilization will be at least billion years. Millions of years is more likely...
Hello Mr Steve3951,

I'm the only person that I know uses the title Rogue Scholar, so I'm assuming you mean me. Plus, I recognize that I wrote that line. And... I don't see that anything you posted shows it not to be true. What exactly about a map, that has a handful of lines and stars, makes a civilization so far ahead of us? Basically if we (Humans) could travel faster, we'd be able to make that map in short order. If we assume that the ETs have FTL (Faster Then Light starship drives), then surely humans will develop FTL also. And at the rate of scientific advancement, and the rate of processing power advancement, and the rate of high energy physics development, I don't see that point being too far out. Even 100 years would be a long time to develop FTL in such a case.

Thus, my assumption that the ETs are not too terribly technically advanced then us is a very reasonable suggestion.

All you have to do is assume:
1) ETs are real
2) FTL is possible.
3) Technology will continue to improve at an increasing rate.
4) An ET race with FTL would explore and have an extensive map.
5) In thousands or millions, or billions, or years an ET race would explore thousands or millions of worlds.

Thus a small map = very little exploration time.

Concerning the age of the universe and the galaxy and the plentifulness of planets.... I don't see how that would matter to a discussion of the technical abilities of an ET race based on their shown abilities and their supposed starmap. It definately could imply that the ETs should be VERY OLD, but it does not require it.

Edited by DieChecker, 19 August 2013 - 05:08 AM.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#56    Mangoze

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 07:40 AM

Simple question:

Why did Betty and Barney Hill draw a picture of the craft, that abducted them, as if they viewed it from above?




#57    ChrLzs

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 12:34 PM

Steve Pearse, these ridiculous offtopic walls of text have revealed your approach admirably.  I particularly liked the way you completely and utterly avoided the crucial point that a polygraph is absolutely USELESS if the person believes what they are saying.

Thanks for helping to make ufology the joke it now is.

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#58    Steve3951

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 09:57 PM

Charles--this was obviously in direct response to your own change the subject sidebar about the use of a poygraph test not being admissible in court. Your welcome to your believe that Betty and Barney Hill were never abducted--but Mate- I stick to my own that your opinions on their case doesn't carry a lot of weight-because far better people such as Walt Webb-a bonefide scientist and Astronomer were satisfied that what the were saying was true. Have you read Fuller's book-The Interrupted Journey or Hynek's book?-I ask because there is a eye-opening section in his book about their case.

I know that you want to use Carl Sagan's argument that the star map was just meaningless dots drawn on a piece of paper, but history shows that he was a hired gun of the Robertson Panel -hired to publically debunk UFOs.

Have you tried using the My Sky Interactive telescope yet ?

Thanks for helping to make skeptical comments about the UFO phenomenon the joke it now is.      

Click here: Aim point RA: 12h 25m 50s Dec: +39°7'

Not bad for a meaningless random asterism directly below the Big Dipper  

Click here: Australian newspaper poll shows most readers believe in aliens | Openminds.tv

Not to far way is it-did you see it?


#59    Steve3951

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:10 PM

Mangoze

Re: Simple question: Why did Betty and Barney Hill draw a picture of the craft, that abducted them, as if they viewed it from above?

They did see it-- This was prior to their abduction on a side gravel road off Hwy 3


From Project Blue Book Report

This was prior to their abduction

D. Location and details: On the night of 19-20 September between 20/0001 and 20/0100 the observers were traveling by car in a southerly direction of Route 3 south of Lincoln, N.H. when they noticed a brightly lighted object ahead of their car at an angle of elevation of approximately 45° degree. It appeared strange to them because of its shape and the intensity of its lights compared to the stars in the sky. Weather and sky were clear.

They continued to observe the object from their moving car for a few minutes then stopped. After stopping the car they used binoculars at times. They report that the object was traveling north very fast. They also report it changed directions rather abruptly and then headed south.

Shortly thereafter it stopped and hovered in the air. There was no sound evident up to this point. While hovering, objects began to appear from the body of the "object" which they describe as looking like wings which made a V-shape when extended. The "wings" had red lights on the tips. At this point they observed it to appear to swoop down in the general direction of their auto. The object continued to descend until it appeared to be only a matter of "hundreds of feet" above their car. At this point they decided to get out of that area, and fast. Mr. Hill was driving and Mrs. Hill was prevented from observing its full departure by her position in the car.

They report that while the object was above them after it had "swooped down" they heard a series of short loud "buzzes" which they described as something like someone dropped a tuning fork. They report that they could feel these buzzing sounds in their auto. No further visual observations were made of this object.





#60    Steve3951

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Posted 20 August 2013 - 10:36 PM


RE:   I'm a Rogue Scholar

Yes and No--some could be several hundred years in advance-- while others could be millions of years in advance of our own. You might read some of Dr. Kaku's essays on this..

This is in reference to the Great Debate that was held at Berkley several years ago. It's on U-Tube.

Geoff Marcy is very skeptical and opinionated that the study of UFOs is a big waste of time. Marcy is a very strong supporter of the Ward and Brownlee Rare Earth Hypothesis (2002) and says that Werthimer’s efforts to tune into an alien signal will never succeed. The debate lacked balance, since their point of view was too narrow minded. According to Marcy the development of life on Earth is very rare, and that our Milky Way Galaxy has probably only produced 12 or less intelligent civilizations. He believes that the nearest alien civilization might be over 100+ light years away and probably 1000’s of light years away from us. Marcy says life in the Milky Way is an open question, and says that the Drake Formula is just theory, and the search for intelligent life must be framed in an intelligent manner; while Werthimer argues that the Rare Earth theory is extremely restrictive and unimaginative. According to Werthimer there are many paths for life to develop in that primordial soup of life.

Several years ago Geoff Marcy made a very interesting comment in the June/2005 issue of DISCOVER, saying the following: “The most important advance in astronomy in the last quarter century is the discovery that the Universe is expanding at an accelerating rate, powered by the most mysterious force ever detected-dark energy, which accelerates the fabric of space-time. The discovery of planets orbiting other stars is a close second.”

Note: Andrew Howard (ETA-Earth Survey) now says the Drake formula estimates on the number of ET civilization is bigger --since their discovery that most stars have planets. Even stars like TAU CETI have confirmed planets

Then he adds the following prediction:

“I’ll predict we discover in the next 25 years that no other advanced civilization resides within 100 light years of Earth, and if we do find a more distant intelligent species, the overwhelming challenge of interstellar travel will render us effectively isolated in the universe for millennia.”






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