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Voynich manuscript has 'genuine message'


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#16    pallidin

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 01:44 AM

As for the extensive drawings of "plants", I'm not sure what to make of them.

I think(?) I heard somewhere on the net that one was identified as a known earth plant. I could be wrong about that.
But the other's seem to remain a complete mystery.

Perhaps from another planet? Perhaps the writings are an alien language? Who knows.

Or perhaps the human author of that manuscript came across a psychedelic plant, consumed it and thus elaborated his/her "visions"  :w00t:


#17    Sormac

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:42 AM

View Postjaylemurph, on 23 June 2013 - 01:12 AM, said:

Actually, I am -- not that I feel a particular need to defend that position to you here. If you want more information about the Tau maps and their position in the 15th Century particularly, I recommend David Summers' excellent book Vision, Relfection and Desire in West Painting (Univ of North Carolina Press, 2006). Unless, of course, you know more about the subject than an imminent Art Historian.



If by "the 1400's [sic]", you mean "Early 16th Century", yes it is from the early 16th Century, but not any older. [http://phys.org/news...perts-age.html]



This is interesting. Do you mean to say it's it from "the 1400's [sic]" or is it Wiccan, which is a purely modern movement and whose 'reconstructios' have almost nothing to do with whatever people were doing in the medieval period?

And, yes, it probably could have been considered witchcraft, not just by the common people, but by the most learned people in Europe. In fact, the learned people probably drew less of a distinction than the commoners. There was no formal distinction between medicine, astrology, and magic for almost another century, and many kinds of magic were not just tolerated but recommended by the Church. (Francis Yates discusses this merging of astronomy, magic and medicine specifically referencing the magical practices of Marcino Ficino in Giordano Bruno and the Hermetic Tradition, Univ. of Chicago Press, 1964. You can also read there about Pope Alexander VI and the magician and cabbalist, Pico de Mirandola).



I'm not sure what "a strange but eloquent could save your head" even means.

Witches were burned, not beheaded -- which was generally reserved for treason, and usually for the upper classes. And anyway, witchburning wasn't particularly common until the end of the 16th Century and the 17th Century. In any case, it wasn't the common folk who'd be ordering such an execution, and the people who would, the literate upperclass, would have been unlikely to try to execute someone for having a magical textbook; there were plenty in print by people like Paracelsus, Agrippa and Ficino, and before printing, texts by people like Ramon Lull, people who lived long, successful lives, some with full church backing.

But as someone who "reads online" you probably already knew all this background material, right?

--Jaylemurph

That article doesn't say it was created in the 16th century.


#18    EllJay

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 02:54 AM

Here are some documentaries about the Voynich manuscript  that are pretty interesting





"Opinions are like a**holes, everyone seems to have one" - Dirty Harry

"All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand... "

"I have a black belt in Feng Shui, the subtle martial art. I go home to you and move a lamp and a chair... twelve years later you lay there on the floor with broken kneecaps and destitute."

#19    s33ker

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:20 AM

http://www.edithsher...coded/index.php

This seems like she might have cracked some of it. How fascinating that it remains a mystery still after all this time.


#20    Sundew

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 03:28 AM

I saw a program on this only a week or so ago (strange coincidence!) and it is thought that this is an herbalist book used for traditional folk medicine. An antique book dealer found it in a box of "rare books" he purchased from a book seller. It seems that the author wrote it in code to prevent others from using his knowledge of these remedies, sort of as a trade secret. Many of the plants are fanciful and may be more than one species drawn together if they even represent living plants, but some are supposedly recognizable and known medicinal herbs. Some of circular pictures are almost hypnotic when rotated at their center point, almost having a film like quality. Very strange book indeed.


#21    jaylemurph

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 04:06 AM

View PostSormac, on 23 June 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

That article doesn't say it was created in the 16th century.

You're absolutely right, and I was absolutely wrong. It does totally say 15th Century. Since you quoted my post, I can't go back and edit it, or else I would go back. I owe brizink a particular apology.

But much of my previous post does stand.

--Jaylemurph

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#22    chopmo

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:01 AM

Me and a friend were discussing this a couple of days ago. We were talking about the book of thoth being the pagan bible so to speak, (in a philasophical buddah sence). My theory is that the manuscript is a copy of the book of thoth, in my understanding from the pictures it's a spellbook so to speak, the early version of a medicine book... in other words how s*** works. That's my theory atleast, could also speak for as to why the codex is so messy.


#23    highdesert50

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:04 AM

Why not a red herring? A clever ruse to potentially confuse or even awe an adversary.


#24    EllJay

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 05:17 AM

View Posthighdesert50, on 23 June 2013 - 05:04 AM, said:

Why not a red herring? A clever ruse to potentially confuse or even awe an adversary.

They estimated that it would have taken several years to complete the book. I don't think  someone would do that just to prank somebody.

"Opinions are like a**holes, everyone seems to have one" - Dirty Harry

"All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand... "

"I have a black belt in Feng Shui, the subtle martial art. I go home to you and move a lamp and a chair... twelve years later you lay there on the floor with broken kneecaps and destitute."

#25    blackdogsun

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:38 AM

View Postseeder, on 22 June 2013 - 07:55 PM, said:

youd have thought some of its pictures would be easy to understand wouldnt you?Posted Image


this picture at least is immediately recognizable to any cartographer as a common stylization of a world map, known as a T & O map because of the circular shape and 'T' across the middle.
asia and the east is at the top, africa on the right and europe to the left . you can almost read the names.
the cardinal directions were usually written in their latin - oriens (ori - east), septentrio (sep - north), merridies (mer - south), occidens (occ - west).
on this particular version we see the word anatole indicating east (top), and the other directions similarly marked.
i'm no cartographer myself, and it is fairly common knowledge if you like old maps, so i'm sure someone has recognized this in their research of the document, but it would be interesting to know what has been made of this map and what it might reveal about the rest of the manuscript.


#26    seeder

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Posted 23 June 2013 - 09:44 AM

View Postblackdogsun, on 23 June 2013 - 09:38 AM, said:

this picture at least is immediately recognizable to any cartographer as a common stylization of a world map, known as a T & O map because of the circular shape and 'T' across the middle.
asia and the east is at the top, africa on the right and europe to the left . you can almost read the names.
the cardinal directions were usually written in their latin - oriens (ori - east), septentrio (sep - north), merridies (mer - south), occidens (occ - west).
on this particular version we see the word anatole indicating east (top), and the other directions similarly marked.
i'm no cartographer myself, and it is fairly common knowledge if you like old maps, so i'm sure someone has recognized this in their research of the document, but it would be interesting to know what has been made of this map and what it might reveal about the rest of the manuscript.

cool, can you recognize anything else from the actual page scripts? (link above)

edit:  heres the link, as we are now on page 2 its no longer above! BTW I also recognized similar text to asia and eurpoa, africa

http://www.bibliotec...nuscrito07d.htm

Edited by seeder, 23 June 2013 - 09:47 AM.

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#27    Dr.Cricket

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 12:03 PM

It's just a Sasquatch cookbook


#28    jaylemurph

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostEllJay, on 23 June 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

They estimated that it would have taken several years to complete the book. I don't think  someone would do that just to prank somebody.

There was a certain type of Renaissance... well, we wouldn't call it a prank or a joke, really, more sort of a intellectual exercise with metaphysically humorous intent, where the amount of energy expended on a project was completely out of proportion to its goal, to sort of stun other people that someone bothered with so much work.

The VM is sort of the perfect example of that. It's only really mysterious inasmuch as that sort of fad no longer is possible. I imagine in 500 years, the Hula Hoop will be sort of the same thing phyiscally as this is intellectually.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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#29    EllJay

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Posted 24 June 2013 - 08:13 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 24 June 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

There was a certain type of Renaissance... well, we wouldn't call it a prank or a joke, really, more sort of a intellectual exercise with metaphysically humorous intent, where the amount of energy expended on a project was completely out of proportion to its goal, to sort of stun other people that someone bothered with so much work.

The VM is sort of the perfect example of that. It's only really mysterious inasmuch as that sort of fad no longer is possible. I imagine in 500 years, the Hula Hoop will be sort of the same thing phyiscally as this is intellectually.

--Jaylemurph

Hmm, well it must have been a rich man without any wife and kids doing it, cause he spent a hell of a long time and money just to prank.
If this was the case as you say -that it was this sort of fad around then- it surely must be more examples of similar pranks still around?

"Opinions are like a**holes, everyone seems to have one" - Dirty Harry

"All those who believe in psychokinesis, raise my hand... "

"I have a black belt in Feng Shui, the subtle martial art. I go home to you and move a lamp and a chair... twelve years later you lay there on the floor with broken kneecaps and destitute."

#30    jaylemurph

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:58 AM

The best example would be a text called Hypnerotomachia Polyphili, which is usually translated as The Struggle of Love in a Dream. It's partly an allegory for the voyage of the soul, but it's written in about a dozen languages and lavishly illustrated, and the author is not certainly known. It's from 1499, so it's even from the same general timeframe.

--Jaylemurph

"... amongst the most obstinate of our opinions may be classed those which derive from discussions in which we affect to search for the truth, while in reality we are only fortifying prejudice."     -- James Fenimore Cooper, The Pathfinder

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