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11,000,000 americans will lose their jobs.


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#31    Harte

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:04 AM

View Postdanielost, on 26 June 2013 - 12:18 AM, said:

They will be able to work construction, janiters.  Not all of these companies are breaking the law and hiringthem under the table.  Or if they do t is only as needed.
They are already working those jobs as well.

Technically, you are advocating for government control of the job market. Labor protectionism.

I prefer to let the market dictate.

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#32    danielost

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 08:59 AM

No, I am argueing against government control.  Forced government slavery.  They will be here for ten years paying their taxes, with no benefits from it.  I am argueing against the government forcing hard working americans onto government hand outs.  I am argueing against the government deciding who gets medical help and who doesn't, based on who they are, which party they support, how old they are, or how important tgey are.  I am against the government rewording those who have broken the law.  My, personal opinioin is round vthem bup an kick them out.  Then remove the illegal aslein laws on the books.  They were only made laws so that farmers wouldn't have to pay minimum wages to them.


I know we can't round them all up.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#33    Ashotep

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:49 PM

View PostxFelix, on 25 June 2013 - 03:18 AM, said:

I'm actually of a somewhat hispanic descent, and even i'm against the way they're handling this situation.

The goal should be to let people aspire to living the american dream, but not at the cost of trashing the american dream itself wtf?!
I know people that are of Mexican decent and they don't like it either so you are not alone.  What is going on is really not good for this country.


#34    Kowalski

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 01:56 PM

View PostHilander, on 26 June 2013 - 01:49 PM, said:

I know people that are of Mexican decent and they don't like it either so you are not alone.  What is going on is really not good for this country.

Very true. I know people who are of Mexican descent, and they are not happy about this...

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against immigration, we need people of diverse backgrounds working in our country, but this immigration bill that they are working on in DC, is going to be a disaster...


#35    Kowalski

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 02:06 PM

Check this out: http://news.yahoo.co...-215958056.html

Quote


Overall, 77 percent of respondents opposed making government benefits available to legalized (but noncitizen) immigrants.
In findings that are sure to feed a core conservative fear about the issue, the idea was broadly unpopular across party, race, and class lines:
  • Ninety percent of Republicans opposed it, as did 80 percent of independents and 65 percent of Democrats, suggesting the message could appear in general-election advertising as well as in GOP primaries.
  • Nearly two-thirds of nonwhites stood against the idea, as well as 84 percent of whites.
  • While college-educated women were the group of whites that most supported extending benefits, 71 percent of them still opposed it.
When asked specifically if legalized immigrants “should be eligible for health care assistance under the Affordable Care Act, also known as Obamacare, before they become citizens,” the margins narrowed thanks to heightened Democratic, nonwhite, and college-educated support -- but respondents still remained hostile to the idea:
  • Sixty-nine percent of respondents said no, including 88 percent of Republicans and 72 percent of independents.
  • Fifty-four percent of Democrats said no, while 43 percent said legalized noncitizens should be Obamacare-eligible.
  • Among nonwhites, extending access to Obamacare polled exactly the same, while whites opposed it 76-20.
The Congressional Connection Poll was conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International from June 20 to 23. It surveyed 1,005 adults by landline and cell phone and has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.6 percentage points.
In the current version of the Senate’s immigration bill, most legalized immigrants who are not permanent residents will not be eligible for means-tested benefits like the subsidies in the health care reform law. Permanent residents would immediately get access to some programs, such as the health care subsidies, but would have to wait longer to participate in others, like Medicaid.
The figures illustrate the political danger in omnibus reform legislation, such as the Senate immigration bill that’s expected to pass this week, that packages popular ideas with less popular ones. In a way, it’s reminiscent of the Obama health care law itself, which features well-liked insurance regulations alongside other items that Republicans have used effectively against Democrats, such as the “$700 billion in Medicare cuts” featured in so many of last year’s campaign ads.
What immigration reform has going for it, though, is that its main elements are broadly popular: Last week’s United Technologies/National Journal Congressional Connection Poll found big majorities -- including majorities of Republicans -- in favor of allowing illegal immigrants who meet certain requirements to stay in the country and later apply for citizenship. And a strong plurality supported focusing the immigration system on acquiring needed job skills for the economy, as have the members crafting the Senate legislation. (However, 49 percent of Republicans did say this week that they would be less likely to vote for their U.S. representative or senator if he or she voted for a pathway to citizenship.)



#36    Harte

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 04:08 PM

View Postdanielost, on 26 June 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

No, I am argueing against government control.

Let me demonstrate.

If an employer can get the same amount of work done, at the same quality level and for less money, then that employer should be free to do so.

If such a thing occurred, there would be market consequences.  Other similar employers would do the same.  If the labor market can't take that sort of downward pressure, then the labor market responds by not filling the needs of those employers, IOW, finding other work or never hiring on at such low rates to begin with.

Employees for these employers become more scarce, and pay must be increased to attract employees.

In your method, the employer is forced to pay more than market value for work done - essentially an artificially high wage.  This means that your complaint is essentially that the government isn't going to interfere with a free labor market (or, if not exactly free, then at least not further burdened by government-forced artificially high wages.)

The way it is now, and the way it should remain in your opinion, is that employers have the opportunity to game the system (actually, commit criminal behavior that will not be discovered,) by paying artificially low wages to people with little or no choice in the matter.  In that scenario, the labor market simply has no means by which to respond to the downward wage pressure created.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#37    danielost

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Posted 26 June 2013 - 06:19 PM

I know what your talking about. The unions asre trying to unionize the fastfood companies, if they succeed say goodbye to the dollar menu, to first time jobs, and maybe fastfood.


The nurses in this nurseing home gets payed more than those working in the hospital.  This is true, I believe, everywhere.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#38    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:50 AM

View Postdanielost, on 26 June 2013 - 06:19 PM, said:

say goodbye to the dollar menu.... and maybe fastfood.



I see no way in which that would be a bad thing.

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#39    danielost

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:53 AM

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 June 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:



I see no way in which that would be a bad thing.

View PostImaginarynumber1, on 27 June 2013 - 01:50 AM, said:



I see no way in which that would be a bad thing.

You must have a good paying job. Or not eat at mcd's

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#40    Imaginarynumber1

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:56 AM

View Postdanielost, on 27 June 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

You must have a good paying job. Or not eat at mcd's

Right on both counts.
That sh!t will kill you.

"A cat has nine lives. For three he plays, for three he strays, and for the last three he stays."


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#41    danielost

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 02:04 AM

View PostHarte, on 26 June 2013 - 04:08 PM, said:



Let me demonstrate.

If an employer can get the same amount of work done, at the same quality level and for less money, then that employer should be free to do so.

If such a thing occurred, there would be market consequences.  Other similar employers would do the same.  If the labor market can't take that sort of downward pressure, then the labor market responds by not filling the needs of those employers, IOW, finding other work or never hiring on at such low rates to begin with.

Employees for these employers become more scarce, and pay must be increased to attract employees.

In your method, the employer is forced to pay more than market value for work done - essentially an artificially high wage.  This means that your complaint is essentially that the government isn't going to interfere with a free labor market (or, if not exactly free, then at least not further burdened by government-forced artificially high wages.)

The way it is now, and the way it should remain in your opinion, is that employers have the opportunity to game the system (actually, commit criminal behavior that will not be discovered,) by paying artificially low wages to people with little or no choice in the matter.  In that scenario, the labor market simply has no means by which to respond to the downward wage pressure created.

Harte

No, I am not defending the minimum wage.  The market should decide pay rate.  When I lived in salt lake just before they passed minimum wage to 6.25 , it was at 5.00.  The fastfood companies were paying 6.00 an hour.  You couldn't drive a block without seeing  a help wanted sign.  The day after the raise those signs went away.  So either they all field their  slots or they couldn't afford to hire anyone.  Labor is a commodity, right now we have to many people looking for work.  Wic means companies are ctigwges

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#42    Harte

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 03:05 AM

Laws are not designed for the "right now."

If people are willing to work for far less, then they will.  Unless the government prevents them from doing so.  Which artificially heightens labor costs, compared to a free market.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
Giorgio's dying Ancient Aliens internet forum

#43    and then

and then

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 01:59 AM

View PostThe Id3al Experience, on 25 June 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Arhh right, I though he was going that way - but it wasnt clear.

Question? How does an employer, Employ an illegal immagrant - or is it under the table work? (Saying means, work for cash, and not delceared via the Tax company (IRS(i think US?), IRD(nz))
Sorry, I was away a bit.  I think that if the immigration bill passes as is then the immigrants will have been given a form of amnesty that essentially will make them "legal" for purposes of employment but NOT citizens.  As such they will be golden for employers to hire because they will be in some no-man's land that protects the immigrant from consequences AND protects employers from consequences of hiring "illegals"- as I said - one last twist of the knife to people who've been doing everything right and for those born here as well.  It just  keeps getting curiouser and curiouser.... almost unbelievable, really....

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#44    and then

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:14 AM

View Postdanielost, on 26 June 2013 - 08:59 AM, said:

No, I am argueing against government control.  Forced government slavery.  They will be here for ten years paying their taxes, with no benefits from it.  I am argueing against the government forcing hard working americans onto government hand outs.  I am argueing against the government deciding who gets medical help and who doesn't, based on who they are, which party they support, how old they are, or how important tgey are.  I am against the government rewording those who have broken the law.  My, personal opinioin is round vthem bup an kick them out.  Then remove the illegal aslein laws on the books.  They were only made laws so that farmers wouldn't have to pay minimum wages to them.


I know we can't round them all up.
The fair thing then is to have employers who use these In-between status workers have to pay the Obamacare taxes just as they will for all other employees then, yes?  If an immigrant is made "legal" for the the ten year period before being able to be naturalized for purposes of employment then why should they NOT have to pay for their healthcare just as the rest of us?  It is simply wrong to have them become an entitled class all their own with employment preference because they will be cheaper to employ.  If I have a paint contracting or landscaping business (both need skilled individuals) and I can hire immigrants to do this work but now I don't have to pay the Obycare taxes then why WOULDN'T I hire the employees who cost me much less?  In that case you've essentially screwed the guys and gals who were born here and learned those skills here in favor of people who come across the border and will work for 30% or 50%(or more) LESS, just so they can have a job.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...

#45    DeWitz

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 10:05 PM

View PostHarte, on 25 June 2013 - 03:33 AM, said:

Not all ERs, just in hospitals that depend on Federal dollars and even then they don't have to if they've met their quota.

Harte

Many states and counties also have laws that obligate designated hospitals to provide care. An under-reported aspect of health care reform is that taxpayers now pay for such indigent care. For all its flaws, so-called 'Obamacare' is intended to spread this cost around. Knee-jerk reactions about it being a "socialist" program often don't take into consideration that we currently have direct tax-payer funded health care (as above and as in Medicare/Medicaid) system for millions of uninsured, 'legal' and 'illegal.'

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