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DOMA ruled unconstitutional


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#16    Almagest

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:42 AM

and then - Marriage has been redefined countless times. The 'traditional' marriage, between a loving man and woman, is only a couple of centuries old, perhaps less. Marriage for centuries was about familial alliances and for getting rid of ones pesky daughters.

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#17    and then

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:53 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 27 June 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:

and then - Marriage has been redefined countless times. The 'traditional' marriage, between a loving man and woman, is only a couple of centuries old, perhaps less. Marriage for centuries was about familial alliances and for getting rid of ones pesky daughters.
True enough but is it not just possible that an "evolution" of sorts has taken place to reach a more stable society?  Frankly, I really don't care about who marries who because it doesn't  impact my life much, if at all.  But when the day comes that children start being married off again to adults in the US I hope I'm not around.  The changes in morality that I have seen in my lifetime have been immense and a good argument can be made that a deterioration of our culture has followed.  The changes have been like a form of social entropy - a race to see where we can break down all barriers until none exist at all.  I just think that at some point we in the west (if we survive) will see that it has gone too far and made life not much worth living.  Just the opinion of an old guy who's seen a lot he feels sad about...

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#18    Almagest

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:57 AM

Can a child apply for a home loan?

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#19    Odin11

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:02 AM

View Postand then, on 27 June 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

I take this as a reflection of the social change that has happened in America over the past decade.  The gay lobby has managed to change the focus from morality to civil rights and there will be no stopping it's agenda from here forward.  Rest assured this is only a crack of the door opening and overall I'd say what it leads to will not be pretty.  I think homosexuality is regarded as sin by the Bible.  But so is lying, over indulging in food or drink or gossip... point is that a government cannot legislate what is in the heart.  My fear is that   I anticipate a movement to bless multiparty union and child - adult union in time.  If marriage is to be so redefined then who will be the arbiters of where that ends?  WHO will stand and say "this" or "that" is unacceptable?  A society with no standards of morality at all is where we are headed and EVERYONE wishes for some kinds of boundaries I think.  That said, the law was unfair and needed adjusting - maybe not being thrown out completely.  Sad thing is that the issue here, imo, is not one of legal rights but moral equivalence and that just isn't something a court can rule over.

Informed Consent, Informed Consent, Informed (knowledgeable, well-versed, educated) Consent , what is it with you people and pedophilia? I don't understand how your minds always go there.

I see nothing wrong with polygamy as long as it is between adults that have given Informed Consent. (A lot of women in the Middle East are so undereducated that they can’t give Informed Consent, so I would not agree to their polygamist marriage)

As to morality, Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong) behavior or character.

To things that cause no harm, moral condemnation simply isn’t appropriate. Homosexuality is often misidentified as a moral issue. Gay relationships involves no intrinsic harm… any more then mixed ones. But when classing harmless things as immoral results in persecution, we have reason to condemn the misclassification.

Homosexuality causes no identifiable harm, so there are no valid grounds for declaring it immoral.

Edited by Odin11, 27 June 2013 - 01:10 AM.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire

Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "Does not!" ~Author Unknown

#20    F3SS

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:22 AM

View PostKowalski, on 26 June 2013 - 11:23 PM, said:

I know...
It's almost hypocritical in a way, because their for limited government, but want to say who can marry whom...

View PostOdin11, on 26 June 2013 - 11:35 PM, said:

It's not "almost" hypocritical, it's hypocritical to the extreme. It is in fact one of the best examples of hypocrisy I can think of.

Not exactly because from a different POV they can be seen as trying to prevent more people from taking advantage of government benefits which obviously requires more federal oversight and more federal employees thereby keeping government limited.
I don't know. Maybe that's a stretch but it could be.


#21    and then

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:24 AM

View PostOdin11, on 27 June 2013 - 01:02 AM, said:

Informed Consent, Informed Consent, Informed (knowledgeable, well-versed, educated) Consent , what is it with you people and pedophilia? I don't understand how your minds always go there.

I see nothing wrong with polygamy as long as it is between adults that have given Informed Consent. (A lot of women in the Middle East are so undereducated that they can’t give Informed Consent, so I would not agree to their polygamist marriage)

As to morality, Morality is the differentiation of intentions, decisions, and actions between those that are good (or right) and those that are bad (or wrong) behavior or character.

To things that cause no harm, moral condemnation simply isn’t appropriate. Homosexuality is often misidentified as a moral issue. Gay relationships involves no intrinsic harm… any more then mixed ones. But when classing harmless things as immoral results in persecution, we have reason to condemn the misclassification.

Homosexuality causes no identifiable harm, so there are no valid grounds for declaring it immoral.
The mind "goes there" because it is a truism in life that things tend to get worse...not better... as regards human behavior at it's basest level.  You seem angry or at least frustrated, Odin.  I don't call homosexuality immoral, God's word does.  If that is of no importance to you then that's fine by me - your choice, rock on.  But don't act as if just because some people will behave in rational and even "moral" ways toward this issue, that ALL people will.  Or that in time the standards can't be blurred to the point of being unrecognizable.  I can guarantee you that if my great grand parents were able to see what America has become morally they would be unable to even comprehend the changes.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#22    Almagest

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:36 AM

View Postand then, on 27 June 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

The mind "goes there" because it is a truism in life that things tend to get worse...not better... as regards human behavior at it's basest level.  You seem angry or at least frustrated, Odin.  I don't call homosexuality immoral, God's word does.  If that is of no importance to you then that's fine by me - your choice, rock on.  But don't act as if just because some people will behave in rational and even "moral" ways toward this issue, that ALL people will.  Or that in time the standards can't be blurred to the point of being unrecognizable.  I can guarantee you that if my great grand parents were able to see what America has become morally they would be unable to even comprehend the changes.

Classic Cop Out. Good thing we live in a secular society where the alleged words of God don't get to influence our laws. Because my hair is getting kinda long and I'd hate to have to be put to death for that. :rolleyes:

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#23    Odin11

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 01:55 AM

View Postand then, on 27 June 2013 - 01:24 AM, said:

The mind "goes there" because it is a truism in life that things tend to get worse...not better... as regards human behavior at it's basest level.  You seem angry or at least frustrated, Odin.  I don't call homosexuality immoral, God's word does.  If that is of no importance to you then that's fine by me - your choice, rock on.  But don't act as if just because some people will behave in rational and even "moral" ways toward this issue, that ALL people will.  Or that in time the standards can't be blurred to the point of being unrecognizable.  I can guarantee you that if my great grand parents were able to see what America has become morally they would be unable to even comprehend the changes.

I am angry, angry that in this day and age people like you can still rationalize their bigotry, because that is what it is bigotry. In 1967 people were saying that interracial marriage was immoral using god’s, so called, word. If you want to be in the same boat as them be my guest. History will treat you and other anti-civil right people the same as them, as a disgrace on our country’s past. That you would think civil rights is a move to the worse show just how backwards in morals you are. Like Almagest said I’m just glad we live in a secular society where your god has no say in our laws (or should have no say).

Like I said in the other topic: the people have NO RIGHT to vote to restrict someone else's civil liberties.

Edited by Odin11, 27 June 2013 - 01:57 AM.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire

Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "Does not!" ~Author Unknown

#24    acidhead

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 02:14 AM

I believe that the GOV should not be in the business litigation of marriage or redefining the terms of a marriage contract.  Individuals should be free to litigate the terms of their own personal contracts any way they choose - and call it anything they want - as long as their own personal freedom does not infringe on the freedom of another individual.  It's called personal liberty....... something the D's and the R's fear.

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#25    danielost

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 02:19 AM

Fed. Law isn't supposed to trump state law nor the other way.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
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#26    green_dude777

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 02:25 AM

http://www.cracked.c...ng-affects-you/

I got a chuckle out of this.


#27    DieChecker

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 04:06 AM

I've not been Pro-Gay Marriage, but I'm going to try really hard not to be Anti-Gay Marriage either. I'm gong to take the "Meh...", indiffrient stand. The Supreme Court decided and I am going to accept that and move on. :tu:

I knew Justice Kennedy would be the decision maker. He's a very powerful man in American policy.

I suppose we'll see how things go.....

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#28    danielost

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:50 AM

doma was not found unconstitutional.  It was found unconstitutional in states that allow same sex marriage.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#29    danielost

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 05:53 AM

The chief justises cousin was on the side against doma.  He should have reclused himself from the case.  Conflict of interest.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#30    Br Cornelius

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 12:24 PM

View Postand then, on 27 June 2013 - 12:25 AM, said:

I take this as a reflection of the social change that has happened in America over the past decade.  The gay lobby has managed to change the focus from morality to civil rights and there will be no stopping it's agenda from here forward.  Rest assured this is only a crack of the door opening and overall I'd say what it leads to will not be pretty.  I think homosexuality is regarded as sin by the Bible.  But so is lying, over indulging in food or drink or gossip... point is that a government cannot legislate what is in the heart.  My fear is that   I anticipate a movement to bless multiparty union and child - adult union in time.  If marriage is to be so redefined then who will be the arbiters of where that ends?  WHO will stand and say "this" or "that" is unacceptable?  A society with no standards of morality at all is where we are headed and EVERYONE wishes for some kinds of boundaries I think.  That said, the law was unfair and needed adjusting - maybe not being thrown out completely.  Sad thing is that the issue here, imo, is not one of legal rights but moral equivalence and that just isn't something a court can rule over.
Rediculous statement. We live in very moral societies with most socially destructive practices been against the law. The problem is that you want to live by a moral code which was set down over two thousand years ago and think that anything else is decadent.

The loadstone of morality in the modern world is "who does this activity harm ?", If you cannot prove harm is been caused then you have no moral justification in banning it. That is one of the strongest moral principles the world has ever seen and certainly betters most of the moral code of the Bible.

Br Cornelius

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