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#46    markdohle

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:44 PM

I am sorry to hear you going through such a hard time.  I am a Christian and read the OT but don't have the fears that you do.  I hope you can find some help in this.  I don't know why you think Buddhist thought can not be studied and learned from by Christians, that is not true, though of course some Christians may agree with you.

Your experience of  your faith, is yours, to universalize it is non-productive in my opinion.  In order for you to free yourself of your past, you need perhaps to read writers that go deeper into the tradition and have a much different perspective than you do.   Which means to step outside of your fundamentalist past, there are many great thinkers who are deeply Christian who may be able to help you to at least get more insight than what you have at this time.  We all need to grow and study if we are to mature….it is an unending aspect of any life that is dealing with life’s questions.

In any case, good luck in your search.


peace
mark



#47    GreenmansGod

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:01 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 06 July 2013 - 01:07 PM, said:



Please tell me more about Druidic study. You threw me off a bit by saying you are studying The Mabinogion as you indicated Druidism is not reliant on written texts. As a person of partial Cymri ancestry, I've perused The Mabinogion but not read it completely. What are the textual aspects of your research?

Druidry and most earth based religions don't have revealed sacred text like the Bible, but that doesn't mean we don't study books.  Mabinogion are the morality stories of my ancestors filtered through Christian monks who wrote them down. There is a lot of stuff that would have been lost if it hadn't been for them.   I am taking a class from a Druid on it.

Druidry is a path to wisdom, you can follow any religious path you want and still be  a Druid.  The Druid path I follow is an Earth based one. There are many different kinds of Druid and Pagan paths.  It can get complicated, but we  manage to get along and worship together for the most part.  The Mabinogion I am using was done my Jeffrey Gautz.

I am also reading Stranger In a Strange Land as a part of my studys.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#48    markdohle

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:19 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 06 July 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Druidry and most earth based religions don't have revealed sacred text like the Bible, but that doesn't mean we don't study books.  Mabinogion are the morality stories of my ancestors filtered through Christian monks who wrote them down. There is a lot of stuff that would have been lost if it hadn't been for them.   I am taking a class from a Druid on it.

Druidry is a path to wisdom, you can follow any religious path you want and still be  a Druid.  The Druid path I follow is an Earth based one. There are many different kinds of Druid and Pagan paths.  It can get complicated, but we  manage to get along and worship together for the most part.  The Mabinogion I am using was done my Jeffrey Gautz.

I am also reading Stranger In a Strange Land as a part of my studys.

Do you grok?  Great book by the way, read it when I first came out.....way, way back in the day LOL

Peace
mark


#49    DeWitz

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 06 July 2013 - 03:01 PM, said:

Druidry and most earth based religions don't have revealed sacred text like the Bible, but that doesn't mean we don't study books.  Mabinogion are the morality stories of my ancestors filtered through Christian monks who wrote them down. There is a lot of stuff that would have been lost if it hadn't been for them.   I am taking a class from a Druid on it.

Druidry is a path to wisdom, you can follow any religious path you want and still be  a Druid.  The Druid path I follow is an Earth based one. There are many different kinds of Druid and Pagan paths.  It can get complicated, but we  manage to get along and worship together for the most part.  The Mabinogion I am using was done my Jeffrey Gautz.

I am also reading Stranger In a Strange Land as a part of my studys.

Thanks for the info. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but Heinlein's title Stranger in a Strange Land is derived from the ancient Hebrew custom of hospitality (Exodus 23:9), which he (appropriately) universalizes.

As my mother used to say, 'You learn something new ever day." I didn't know that the Mabinogion was preserved/interpreted by Christian monks! Very interesting. Thanks.

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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#50    GreenmansGod

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 09:03 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 06 July 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

Thanks for the info. I'm not trying to be patronizing, but Heinlein's title Stranger in a Strange Land is derived from the ancient Hebrew custom of hospitality (Exodus 23:9), which he (appropriately) universalizes.


Exodus 2:22  Is where the title came from.  
And she bore him a son, and he called his name Gershom [that is, A stranger there]; for he said, “I have been a stranger in a strange land.”

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#51    DeWitz

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:34 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 06 July 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Exodus 2:22  Is where the title came from.  
And she bore him a son, and he called his name Gershom [that is, A stranger there]; for he said, “I have been a stranger in a strange land.”

Good job! One other question, for now--are there archaeological evidences of Druidic practices, or only oral history/contemporary texts already mentioned? If Druidism is viable  with the 21st century, who brought it into modern (20-21st centuries) consciousness? Only oral tradition?

Again, with all respect; some Christians (my northern European brethren) treat the mistletoe at Christmastide as a harbinger of blessings in the future. Do Druids of your connection see it similarly? If so (I know the evergreen is already one for us) there are more, rather than fewer, pagan-Christian confluences between us.

Would you agree? If so/not, please fill me in. Thanks

View PostDarkwind, on 06 July 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Exodus 2:22  Is where the title came from.  
And she bore him a son, and he called his name Gershom [that is, A stranger there]; for he said, “I have been a stranger in a strange land.”

Thanks for the corrective!

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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#52    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:41 PM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 01 July 2013 - 01:05 AM, said:

If God demands us to abandon our common sense, that God doesn't deserve to be worshiped.
I seem to recall a Psalm to the tune of "as gold and silver are to you, questions are to the Lord", which suggests that God's got no problems with people using their brains.
It's the religious demagogues that want sheeple.

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#53    GreenmansGod

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:14 AM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 07 July 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

Good job! One other question, for now--are there archaeological evidences of Druidic practices, or only oral history/contemporary texts already mentioned? If Druidism is viable  with the 21st century, who brought it into modern (20-21st centuries) consciousness? Only oral tradition?

Again, with all respect; some Christians (my northern European brethren) treat the mistletoe at Christmastide as a harbinger of blessings in the future. Do Druids of your connection see it similarly? If so (I know the evergreen is already one for us) there are more, rather than fewer, pagan-Christian confluences between us.

Would you agree? If so/not, please fill me in. Thanks



Thanks for the corrective!

There are many different kind of Druidry. The ancient Celtic Druids didn't write anything down and modern Druidry in Britain started in the 1700's in the romantic revival.  I am not going to do all this typing.  http://www.nachtanz....od_druids1.html

Druidry in the States started in 1963 but people who wanted to get out of are religious requirement imposed by their school. They are right up front about it.  They where Hippies  so they started an Earth base path which is really more of philosophy than religion. Hippies never went away, they just never left school.  I don't think they were expecting it to take off like it did. All religions have a starting place, this is new, is it viable, why wouldn't it be.  In the year 500 was Christianity viable? Here is something I posted earlier about Modern Druidry.
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=249795

All Earth base Pagan religions are new, I don't care that the Wiccans say, what they do started in the 50's .Read "Triumph of the Moon" by Ronald Hutton. He knows his stuff.

The best thing an Ancient Druids did for us is not write anything down. We get a do over. No non-sense of putting people in the Wickerman and burning them alive or out dated rules. Be happy about that one.

edit To add, when you look round at the planet and see the damage we are doing. Earth Base Paths honor the Earth which is our home. We need to start looking out for our home. I think the Neo Pagan movement is over do, somebody needs to look after our home.

Edited by Darkwind, 08 July 2013 - 02:21 AM.

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#54    rainstone

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:30 AM

Ron,

Your spiritual path is your own...no one else's.  Buddhist beliefs are compatible with Christianity...read up on Buddhism, there are a lot if similarities, I let you find them for yourself.  IMO, a lot of the world's religions have the same central points,..love, forgiveness and tolerance.  All the rest is doctrine, dogma and theory.  Do some research and some self-examination of your beliefs.  Like libstaK, I was baptised Roman Catholic but lean toward the Gnostic teachings.  I was a lot like you at one point, afraid to learn about different beliefs because of how I was raised but my knowing there was more out there and my curiosity were stronger than my fear.  I read every book on different religions and beliefs I could get my hands on.  Eventually, I came back to my roots, so to speak, but my faith is stronger, my beliefs are my own and I expanded my beliefs as well.  There are many different paths to God. Find your own. :yes:


#55    JMPD1

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 02:42 AM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 27 June 2013 - 09:24 PM, said:

If I was in a better life situation I would freely pursue whatever spirituality I want to study. :(

Sometimes, it is the very life situation you are in that can lead you to your path.

Not knowing the details of your life, let me say that once I started looking at things in a 'positive' light as opposed to a 'negative' one, things started to, and continue to, improve in my own life.

Nothing too outre, just a form of 'dwelling on the positive' and the law of attraction.

And if you need a friendly sympathetic ear, PM me.  I may not be able to help, but at least I listen real good. :)

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#56    Doug1o29

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:20 AM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 05 July 2013 - 09:15 PM, said:

My, but you are all over the place on this. You stated (post #18) "I (yourself) usually use the KJV." I didn't refer to it except in that context. It is the least reliable of available English translations, yet you use it. I read it when it was the standard version of my youth, and off and on since. How can your reference to the KJV be my problem? I never based any of my dates/my response on the KJV. What are you talking about?
If one REALLY wants to know what a passage said/meant, one has to look it up in several different translations.  That gives you a general idea of what was meant.  One version is not necessarily better than another for that purpose.  As I said in post 18, I prefer KJV because of its elegant language, not because of its accuracy.  If you're looking for accuracy, the "Journal of Higher Criticism" will get you farther, but you might have to read thirty years of back issues to find what you're looking for.

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Theology is an academic discipline rooted in history, archaeology, hard scientific data (carbon-14 dating of bones,teeth and other material; biological analysis of seeds, grain remains, middens, graves, tombs and much more), tradition and literature, not "fables and urban legends" as you dismissively assert. Why read about it if you've decreed it all mumbo-jumbo?
I dismiss theology because it is not supported by physical observations (If you know of exceptions to that, please cite some references.).  The Young Earth idea, the idea that Noah's Flood covered the entire earth, etc.  You still see people posting these ideas right here on UM as if they believed them.  Do you?

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The term "god is dead" theology simply refers to the antiquated nature of your assertions. What you have written in this thread was all old hat by the 1970's.
YOU brought up the "god is dead" idea.  I see it as irrelevant.  Doesn't matter if god is dead (or ever existed).  As there is no objective evidence of god, there is no choice but to dismiss it.

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Your materialist views are clear; your scholarship is not, nor is it fresh or insightful. It's obsolete. Open-minded research is apparently not your strong suit; pre-conceptions, assumptions and driving an agenda appear to be your domain.
I try my best to be open-minded.  I am immediately willing to drop any ideas that turn out to be wrong.  And there have been several since I came to UM.  For example, I no longer believe that Justin the Martyr was quoting from our modern gospels; I now believe that Ignatius of Antioch died in the arena at Antioch on December 17, 117 AD and never got to Rome to be torn apart by wild beasts and I now believe that Papias was way too young to have actually met John the Apostle and was writing based on hearsay evidence.  Papias was not a witness to John and Polycarp, himself, never claimed to be - that claim was made for him by Irenaeus.

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Proponents of enlightened biblical research since the 1800's don't claim findings verifiable according to your constricted version of pseudo-scientism.
Then there is no objective evidence to support the historicity of Jesus - you just said so, thereby admitting that Jesus is a myth.  I am a little more optimistic.  I think there might be something so I am going to look for it.

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To repeat: The same criteria that your methodology would apply to Jesus' existence apply equally to Homer, Plato and many other accepted historical personages.
I don't know about Homer; I've never studied him.  But somebody wrote down the stories.  If it wasn't somebody named "Homer" then it was somebody who assumed that function.  As I understand it, "Homer's" stories actually had several different authors.  Plato was written about by his own students - eyewitnesses.  There are no eye-witnesses to Jesus.

Quote

To repeat another point: You tend to refute things I've never written. That's not dialogue. It might be a monologue, but I'm not impressed by self-sustaining diatribes.
And you tend to argue against things I never said, either.  Let's get specific.  Choose a specific issue and we'll deal with it.  You are assuming I am rejecting Jesus when what I am rejecting is nothing more than bad evidence.

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We all have a right to our opinions; when one writes or speaks definitively, especially "scientifically," one is obligated to be responsible--not misleading.
I have actually published ten articles in scientific publications, mostly in conference proceedings.  PM me and I'll send you a list of citations.  Admittedly, all my scientific articles are about physical things, like trees and ice storms.  I will be glad to email you pre-publication copies of three that are currently pending (still under peer review).  I am doing nothing more than applying scientific standards to the evidence presented in support of a "historical Jesus."  Where that will lead me, I don't know, but if I knew, there would be no point in doing it.

So how many research articles have you published?
Doug

Edited by Doug1o29, 08 July 2013 - 03:28 AM.

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Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#57    Doug1o29

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:44 AM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 01 July 2013 - 02:57 PM, said:

Doug---regarding post #18--you did a fine job of refuting points I didn't make (example: Your contention that "Baal" is used more often than "Jehovah" in the OT;
Wrong!  I referred only to the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.  You didn't bother to read the post.

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your attempted refutation that Jesus is as historically attested as Aristotle, Plato and others,
Aristotle was one of Plato's students.  It is Aristotle from whom we derive eye-witness acounts of Plato.  His writings cover many subjects, including physics, metaphysics, poetry, theater, music, logic, rhetoric, linguistics, politics, government, ethics, biology, and zoology.  Eurymedon the hierophant was an eye-witness to Aristotle.  How many books did Jesus write?  How many real people (historically verifiable) saw him and wrote about the experience?
Doug

If I have seen farther than other men, it is because I stood on the shoulders of giants. --Bernard de Chartres
The beginning of knowledge is the realization that one doesn't and cannot know everything.
Science is the father of knowledge, but opinion breeds ignorance. --Hippocrates
Ignorance is not an opinion. --Adam Scott

#58    ambelamba

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 05:28 AM

Well, I admit that I am the cause of my own misery. In my life, karma never gave me a break.

At this point, I am beginning to feel skeptical to the spiritual growth itself. I know that I have an innate tendency to lean forward spirituality, but it doesn't help improve my life situations.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

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#59    DeWitz

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostDoug1o29, on 08 July 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

Wrong!  I referred only to the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible.  You didn't bother to read the post.

Aristotle was one of Plato's students.  It is Aristotle from whom we derive eye-witness acounts of Plato.  His writings cover many subjects, including physics, metaphysics, poetry, theater, music, logic, rhetoric, linguistics, politics, government, ethics, biology, and zoology.  Eurymedon the hierophant was an eye-witness to Aristotle.  How many books did Jesus write?  How many real people (historically verifiable) saw him and wrote about the experience?
Doug

I read as well--or as poorly--as you do, Doug. You reply to my replies as if you are replying to your own echoes. The very way in which you reply, parsing and editorializing piecemeal (you do it not only to me, as I have read) indicates you are a linear thinker and don't connect dots in conversation or correspondence. You may imagine yourself as having an open mind, but you have precluded learning anything from me (and possibly others) because your mind is made up before you even attempt to engage in dialog.

You don't discuss; you refute. You don't exchange ideas; you presume many others' ideas D.O.A., presumptuously. You are a "knowtitall," who doesn't (at least one thing you don't know--that you're a know-it-all). If I said, "I have an open mind, but I don't accept material reality as ultimately real" (not my position), would you say I have an "open" mind?

Lots of stuff in human experience is inaccessible to physical observation/experimental repitition: Memory; poetry; feelings; thoughts; mysticism; visions internal and external; imagination (the sound of one hand clapping), etc. Science does not, or thus far has not, answered many of its own questions about physical reality (how do migratory birds navigate? why did Hitler not advance his tanks upon the beach at Dunkirk in 1940?).

I've only published two articles, although I do not measure my intellect or value as a human by that meager standard. My only claim to fame came in 1981 when I defeated (by student and faculty acclamation) my graduate school  ethics professor in a debate about the relative validity of marxist analysis of revolutions in Nicaragua and El Salvador and the US government's response thereto. One of my skills is identifying internal inconsistencies in others' thinking. The professor had an open mind, and conceded his weakness on the marxist angle, thus giving me the edge. Other people can't admit such, and simply go on a long excursus ultimately validating only themselves, resistant to any nuance, rejecting or misinterpreting others' positions, swallowing their own tail (tale?) like the mythical dragon.

I wish you success in whatever you do. Publish often, and well.

Thus proceed both the religious fundamentalist and the scientific

[previously incarnate as 'szentgyorgy']

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#60    GreenmansGod

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostRon Jeremy, on 08 July 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Well, I admit that I am the cause of my own misery. In my life, karma never gave me a break.

At this point, I am beginning to feel skeptical to the spiritual growth itself. I know that I have an innate tendency to lean forward spirituality, but it doesn't help improve my life situations.

If Karma is all about punishment for what you have done in this and or past life then I must have been a serial killer at some time. I never really bought into whole "it's karma."  I have seen to many people in really horrible situations who did nothing I could see to deserve their fate. Things that make you think, my life isn't as bad as I think.  You have a major talent in your art. Do what I do I make art to please myself. I am not going to make any money off it, but it is really good for my mental health and who knows maybe somebody will like too.  Sometimes you do things and think you have failed, but sometimes failure is really just moment to think and restart in a different direction.    Hang in there guy I am pulling for you.

Quote

In its most basic sense, the Law of Karma in the moral sphere teaches that similar actions will lead to similar results. Let us take an example. If we plant a mango seed, the plant that springs up will be a mango tree, and eventually it will bear a mango fruit. Alternatively, if we plant a Pong Pong seed, the tree that will spring up will be a Pong Pong tree and the fruit a Pong Pong. As one sows, so shall one reap. According to one’s action, so shall be the fruit. Similarly, in the Law of Karma, if we do a wholesome action, eventually we will get a wholesome fruit, and if we do an unwholesome action eventually we will get an unwholesome, painful result. This is what we mean when we say that causes bring about effects that are similar to the causes. This we will see very clearly when we come to specific examples of wholesome and unwholesome actions.

We can understand by means of this general introduction that karma can be of two varieties - wholesome karma or good karma and unwholesome karma or bad karma. In order that we should not misunderstand this description of karma, it is useful for us to look at the original term. In this case, it is kushala or akushala karma, karma that is wholesome or unwholesome. In order that we understand how these terms are being used, it is important that we know the real meaning of kushala and akushala. Kushala means intelligent or skilful, whereas akushala means not intelligent, not skilful. This helps us to understand how these terms are being used, not in terms of good and evil but in terms of skilful and unskilful, in terms of intelligent and unintelligent, in terms of wholesome and unwholesome. Now how wholesome and how unwholesome? Wholesome in the sense that those actions which are beneficial to oneself and others, those actions that spring not out of desire, ill-will and ignorance, but out of renunciation, loving-kindness and compassion, and wisdom.

One may ask how does one know whether an action that is wholesome or unwholesome will produce happiness or unhappiness. The answer is time will tell. The Buddha Himself answered the question. He has explained that so long as an unwholesome action does not bear its fruit of suffering, for so long a foolish person will consider that action good. But when that unwholesome action bears its fruit of suffering then he will realize that the action is unwholesome. Similarly, so long as a wholesome action does not bear its fruit of happiness, a good person may consider that action unwholesome. When it bears its fruit of happiness, then he will realize that the action is good. So one needs to judge wholesome and unwholesome action from the point of view of long-term effect. Very simply, wholesome actions result in eventual happiness for oneself and others, while unwholesome actions have the opposite result, they result in suffering for oneself and others.   http://www.buddhanet...ning/karma1.htm  


"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie




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