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what's your personal religion?


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#46    Zaphod222

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:17 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 June 2013 - 12:18 PM, said:

They can be, but no, not necessarily. Religion is just not my cup of tea, although the study of it is fascinating.

So you agree that it is good when there is something that binds people together. So why not religion, as long as it is a harmless one? Of course you need to look at the content of the religion. This is not something we should generalize about.

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#47    Ryu

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:18 PM

No religion, just reality.


#48    Zaphod222

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:23 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 28 June 2013 - 02:07 PM, said:

The Golden Rule has the problem that the person is personally in how it operates.  If you would like something, then do it for others, but what if what you would like is wrong?  If I'm on a jury and have to decide the defendants guilt or innocence, were I the defendant I would like to be acquitted, so the Golden Rule says I should vote to aquit -- regardless of the evidence.

I think that is a misrepresentation of the Golden Rule. You are simplifying it to a "one person vs another person" situation, but that is not quite it.
Look at it the way Kant phrased it in his Categorial Imperative. Then you will see that in your situation, you best choice is to make the fairest judgement, and not to help the criminal.

Edited by Zaphod222, 28 June 2013 - 02:24 PM.

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#49    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:30 PM

I don't know, but it seems to me Kant fixed this problem with the Golden Rule, although it can also be criticized in that the person decides whether or not the rule should be universalized, not some principle.


#50    redhen

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 02:36 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 28 June 2013 - 02:17 PM, said:

So you agree that it is good when there is something that binds people together. So why not religion, as long as it is a harmless one?

Ideologies and religions can have harmful components, they can also have good ones.

Quote

Of course you need to look at the content of the religion. This is not something we should generalize about.

Certainly, one can compare religions. Many academics make a living in comparative religion studies. I think it's valid to make general statements sometimes. One example; any religion that enacts (or would enact if a 3rd temple was built) human or animal sacrifice, is abhorrent.


#51    danielost

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:01 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 June 2013 - 04:02 AM, said:



I wasn't framing those maxims in Christian terms, from wiki

"(Positive form of Golden Rule): One should treat others as one would like others to treat oneself.
(Negative form of Golden Rule): One should not treat others in ways that one would not like to be treated (also known as the Silver Rule)."

To me it seems a natural evolution of the reciprocity and empathy we see in other apes, and other more distant species.


Of course there is another more cynical meaning; Those who have the gold, make the rules. :)


Perhaps but with those two laws in the bible, it would seem that the main thing to do is LOVE.

Also you can be rebaptised into another faith.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#52    Frank Merton

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:07 PM

The Buddha's message as I understand it was not love for God and fellow people but mindful compassion for all sentient beings.  There are slight differences here.


#53    Zaphod222

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:22 PM

View Postredhen, on 28 June 2013 - 02:36 PM, said:

Certainly, one can compare religions. Many academics make a living in comparative religion studies. I think it's valid to make general statements sometimes. One example; any religion that enacts (or would enact if a 3rd temple was built) human or animal sacrifice, is abhorrent.

I agree. And any religion that embraces holy war and the death for apostates should be dead on arrival, too.
Modern countries are really shooting themselves in the foot with a romantic notion of "religious freedom" that includes freedom to preach hatred, misogyny and oppression.
There should be "religious freedom", but it should be within the bounds of secular freedom.

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#54    GreenmansGod

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:31 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 28 June 2013 - 04:10 AM, said:

Some sort of basic axiom is needed if one is to be rational about moral behavior, rather than just going with what "feels right."

To me the foundation is Kant.  When contemplating an act, consider whether you would be willing to let anyone else in the same situation do the same.

This has some problems but at least it gets one's personal interest out of the formula.

Ethics and reason, is how I was taught, my Dad was atheist. My Mom tried the Christian thing, but in the end Dad was the one who set us strait. As a Druid, education and reason is the key to moral behavior.  But what is moral for some is not moral for all. In my path as long as no one is getting hurt, have fun. ;)

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#55    danielost

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:42 AM

Sometimes someone doesn't know they got hurt for years.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#56    Beany

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:42 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 28 June 2013 - 03:02 AM, said:

When I point out that life is a b****, I am just being realistic.  It does not mean we are necessarily unhappy.  That is acheivable in even the worst conditions, but I think more easily acheivable if you are realistic and recognize that the cards are stacked against you.  It permits more patience, and more stoicism.

The first of the Four Noble Principles is that life is suffering.  We suffer discomforts, pains, itches, nausea, grief, worry, fear, nervousness, failure, heat, cold, thirst, hunger, revulsions, and frustrations.  We age and we die and we eventually realize that all pleasures are self-limiting and lead to excess and loss.

The Buddha would not say why this is the way it is, only that this is the way it is.  I think that it derives from natural processes, especially natural selection and the struggle for survival and how evolution has wired us with instincts and desires and with a system of rewards and punishments designed to do nothing more than pass our genes into the next generation.

Armed with this understanding, we can deal with it and develop a detachment that in the end makes us much better off.

I disagree with the suffering bit. Yeah, we have all suffered to some degree, but that's not all that life is about. There are other things going on to. Nor do I think all pleasures are self-limiting and lead to excess and loss. To get anywhere with this, we'd probably need to come to agreement about what these words even mean. Pleasure as in imbibing alcohol or amassing a fortune, or in having power over someone? Or pleasure that comes from a walk with a grandchild, reading a good book, looking at a beautiful piece of art, or watching a sunrise or sunset? When I say pleasure I think of the latter, whereas maybe you're thinking more along the lines of the former?

It's funny, at one time I thought the cards were stacked against me, now I don't even see any cards. I guess my reference points have changed or I changed my reference points, not sure which, really. A few years ago I adopted a yearly practice of not believing anything that I didn't know to be true for myself through personal experience. So I have a very short list of beliefs these days, and am content to mostly observe and give thanks for the blessings of my life. These days I have fewer explanations & a lot more observations that may or may not lead to some worthwhile thought or idea, and if it doesn't happen I don't think the universe has lost much, if anything. I guess I'm better at admiring than philosophizing.


#57    third_eye

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 04:45 AM

View PostBeany, on 29 June 2013 - 02:42 AM, said:

~snip

These days I have fewer explanations & a lot more observations that may or may not lead to some worthwhile thought or idea, and if it doesn't happen I don't think the universe has lost much, if anything. I guess I'm better at admiring than philosophizing.


I was made to believe that is but the first step ...

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#58    sutemi

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 05:32 AM

I don’t adhere too or hate any religion, I chose meditation many years ago, I didn’t want second reports, I wanted to KNOW for myself. Here’s another Van Morrison song, it is a song about meditation and life ”this must be what paradise like, it so quiet in here, so peaceful in here”.  PEACE the magic ingredient,  the goal we all seek in whatever we do, we give it different names, satisfaction, contentment, serenity, ease, etc. Yet we carry ‘IT’ within us all the time, if we just stopped and focused inside we would know ‘IT’ in our everyday lives, but we were taught to chase materialism, taught to love our country to be nationalistic, to be political, that our God is the only true God, to acquire and hoard and told that only then would we be fulfilled. But through all this stuff, we forgot who and what we are, meditation returns us to our default to what we really are. When we return to this natural harmonious state, I am Peace, the world is my nation, every man is my brother and I wish peace and happiness for all.
“The fish are thirsty in the water and when I hear this it makes me laugh” Kabir


#59    Beany

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:37 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 29 June 2013 - 04:45 AM, said:

I was made to believe that is but the first step ...

:tu:

`

The first and the possibly last for me. I feel like I've come full circle, after having stuffed my head with information and processed much of it, I'm back to where I started. Like the allegory of Eden, leaving with ignorance & innocence, then coming back to it after having acquired knowledge & experiences, maybe we walk back into with the capacity to more fully appreciate it.


#60    Beany

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:48 PM

View Postsutemi, on 29 June 2013 - 05:32 AM, said:

I don’t adhere too or hate any religion, I chose meditation many years ago, I didn’t want second reports, I wanted to KNOW for myself. Here’s another Van Morrison song, it is a song about meditation and life ”this must be what paradise like, it so quiet in here, so peaceful in here”.  PEACE the magic ingredient,  the goal we all seek in whatever we do, we give it different names, satisfaction, contentment, serenity, ease, etc. Yet we carry ‘IT’ within us all the time, if we just stopped and focused inside we would know ‘IT’ in our everyday lives, but we were taught to chase materialism, taught to love our country to be nationalistic, to be political, that our God is the only true God, to acquire and hoard and told that only then would we be fulfilled. But through all this stuff, we forgot who and what we are, meditation returns us to our default to what we really are. When we return to this natural harmonious state, I am Peace, the world is my nation, every man is my brother and I wish peace and happiness for all.
“The fish are thirsty in the water and when I hear this it makes me laugh” Kabir

Got it. Like you, I grew tired of second-hand reports, it began to seem like information instead of knowledge. Knowledge for me comes out of experience that gives depth and becomes part of my reality. Besides, and I'm not necessarily proud of this, I've always, even as a kid, been skeptical about what other people tell me I should believe. I'm the person who's first bumper sticker said Question Authority. Did so back then, and still do so. I like to blame it on watching too much Soupy Sales, Rocky and Bullwinkle, and the Ernie Kovack show. Did you ever get the feeling much of the world is like the Nairobi Trio?







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