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#31    Paranoid Android

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 03:16 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 28 June 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

But until then, all you do is spout your own wishful thinking.
And all you do is spout your own bigotry. I've lived with Muslims my whole life, including hearing comments in the media from clerics/imams/sheikhs thatpreach love and tolerance and *gasp* peace.

Moderate clerics exist. Moderate Mosques exist. I've seen them, and I continue to see them virtually every day. So with respect hold onto your views if you like. You have that Right. I want no part in them, tbough

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#32    xFelix

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 04:48 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 28 June 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Who ever said it doesn't apply to everyone?  My post and the main point of it all was - It can be anyone. The video posted is just used as a more recent example of how so many guys felt shocked at the friend they felt was a good guy and then something happens and it leaves them dumbfounded

I laid out another example of neighbours feeling the same shock towards a friend / neighbour they knew so well..  Was I singling out my own people when I used the Irish man who turned out to be IRA, that left his friends and neighbours in shock...this was not another example?   Listing one or two examples ( like I did ) does not in anyway single people out..  They are just examples and nothing more.



Who here is judging the ENTIRE religion?  Please by all means, show me where you have seen someone judging the ENTIRE religion, I may have missed it..

I'm not saying you did, I was validating your point and then moving to mine. But we both know that people do this crap: "Oh Muslims? Nooooooo I want nothing to do with them, they are all terrorists!"

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#33    Rlyeh

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:11 PM

View Postmysticwerewolf, on 28 June 2013 - 08:14 AM, said:

I  guess I will allow that ....
I am sure that there are nice people out there( I hope your one of them) of that faith  but as I said I have only met one that was human ( he treated others with respect when they were not doing the same.  he  followed the same rules that Most of the rest of us, he Didn't scream and yell and assault someone then Try to yell discrimination.  I know that I should not judge others By religion, ( or any one of a dozen reasons)  And my apologies to those who don't fit the stereotype in the story but this dislike runs deep.
Not sure why you think I'm muslim, anyone familiar with my posts knows I'm one of the least religious people on the forums.


#34    Zaphod222

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 05:38 PM

View PostParanoid Android, on 28 June 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

And all you do is spout your own bigotry. I've lived with Muslims my whole life, including hearing comments in the media from clerics/imams/sheikhs thatpreach love and tolerance and *gasp* peace.

Moderate clerics exist. Moderate Mosques exist. I've seen them, and I continue to see them virtually every day. So with respect hold onto your views if you like. You have that Right. I want no part in them, tbough

No, I do not spout bigotry. Fundamentally, I have no bone in this. I am OK with any religion, as long as it remains a personal religion and stays out of politics. But islam is a game-changer here, because it is thoroughly political.

You are trying to judge islam by your personal anecdotal evidence, basically, that you met a lot of friendly muslim people. Well, that means absolutely nothing. Remember that all the Tsarnev bomber brothers in Boston, Mohammed Atta the 9-11 pilot, the "fabulous 4" that bombed the London underground, Mohammed Boyeri (who murdered Theo van Gogh), or Yussuf Islam, previously known as Cat Stevens (who called for the murder of Salman Rushdie after converting to islam)... they were all very friendly and personally nice people. Everybody who knew them could testify that. You could continue the list forever. The problem with them is not that they were personally "not nice". The problem is that they began seriously studying a particular ideology and acting on it. The problem is not that they are "evil" -- the problem is that their ideology is bad. Why is it so hard to for you to make that distinction? You keep obfuscating the topic by confusing the problem inherent in islam and Shariah, with your personal anecdotal evidence.

About moderate cleric, I am sure there are some, but they are not the leading clerics of either Sunni or Shia islam. Also, I am pretty sure that you are being deceived. What exactly do you mean by "moderate"? If you mean personally friendly to you, sure. But have you ever asked relevant questions? Have you asked if Shariah should be the law of the land? If it should be allowed for muslims to leave the faith? If homosexuality should be allowed? If Israel should be allowed to exist? If Mohammed is indeed the perfect man, and therefore his actions should be examplary? Have you asked if you could marry a muslim girl without converting to islam first? Try that. I suggest you will be surprised.

Also, I find it quite funny that you are defining the "true islam" on the basis of muslim aquaintances who live in Australia, under secular Australian law. Don´t you rather think that you would see the "true islam" where it is actually practised? In places like Saudi-Arabai, Yemen, the Gaza strip, or Iran? Why secular Australia?

Edited by Zaphod222, 28 June 2013 - 05:48 PM.

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#35    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:07 PM

View PostxFelix, on 28 June 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

I'm not saying you did, I was validating your point and then moving to mine. But we both know that people do this crap: "Oh Muslims? Nooooooo I want nothing to do with them, they are all terrorists!"

I cannot blame people for naturally holding fear of Muslims OR any group, I am not saying that's good, but before you say anything, I'll explain  why that is...

I was in London with my boyfriend ( Now husband ) years ago.. When we were there, it was shortly after the Canary Wharf booming, which was carried out by Irish terrorists ( IRA ) ..When we were walking through London, people, once heard our accents, took nothing to do with us.. If I walked into a shop to buy something, the sound of our accents was enough for them to act like we are the trouble makers, with that, they would not speak to us..

I understood why they acted in that way, I know it was natural to hold fear after what had happened... This is a natural part of human nature, whether we like the sound of it or not....

There are bits of fear,and prejudice in each and every one  of us, including muslims. ..  I am willing to bank that there are muslims out there who hold fears and prejudice towards others...  It is all part of our nature.. Not saying it is right, but I cannot deny what naturally can happen.

There are ways to overcome the fears, but if we  ( meaning everyone ) condemn those with the fears, we are only making it worse, nothing good can ever come of it...  I say, if we cannot say a good enough word to these people ( fear holding ) then don't say anything at all...

So when I say I do not blame people for holding fears of muslims, it is because I know why and how people naturally can react.. The thing is, we need to overcome it, but if ( like I said before)  we condemn them for feeling fear, we are in fact making matters worse...We should look at BOTH sides and not just the one side we favour...

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 28 June 2013 - 06:08 PM.

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#36    mysticwerewolf

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 06:56 PM

View PostRlyeh, on 28 June 2013 - 05:11 PM, said:

Not sure why you think I'm muslim, anyone familiar with my posts knows I'm one of the least religious people on the forums.
   Until you copied a part of my post and asked if you could keep your head I didn't assume anything about anyone here, I was just telling the world about my experiences with a specific ethnic group of people, said experiences being why I wanted no further live contact with those people.
    turns out that you were not even  the person who quoted me  but  at the time of morning it was where I am at and considering how angry the subject Still makes me 30+ years later ........ Oh well sorry..........

Edited by mysticwerewolf, 28 June 2013 - 07:07 PM.


#37    xFelix

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:13 PM

View PostBeckys_Mom, on 28 June 2013 - 06:07 PM, said:

I cannot blame people for naturally holding fear of Muslims OR any group, I am not saying that's good, but before you say anything, I'll explain  why that is...

I was in London with my boyfriend ( Now husband ) years ago.. When we were there, it was shortly after the Canary Wharf booming, which was carried out by Irish terrorists ( IRA ) ..When we were walking through London, people, once heard our accents, took nothing to do with us.. If I walked into a shop to buy something, the sound of our accents was enough for them to act like we are the trouble makers, with that, they would not speak to us..

I understood why they acted in that way, I know it was natural to hold fear after what had happened... This is a natural part of human nature, whether we like the sound of it or not....

There are bits of fear,and prejudice in each and every one  of us, including muslims. ..  I am willing to bank that there are muslims out there who hold fears and prejudice towards others...  It is all part of our nature.. Not saying it is right, but I cannot deny what naturally can happen.

There are ways to overcome the fears, but if we  ( meaning everyone ) condemn those with the fears, we are only making it worse, nothing good can ever come of it...  I say, if we cannot say a good enough word to these people ( fear holding ) then don't say anything at all...

So when I say I do not blame people for holding fears of muslims, it is because I know why and how people naturally can react.. The thing is, we need to overcome it, but if ( like I said before)  we condemn them for feeling fear, we are in fact making matters worse...We should look at BOTH sides and not just the one side we favour...

Nobody is condemning anyone for holding fear of anyone else. Fear is a very irrational thing, quite frankly fear doesn't give a crap about being politically correct, or even morally correct, fear is fear, this is a known fact. Someone who fears somehing fears it, and that's that. We can't be mad at people for being afraid of someone else. However, it's not the being afraid that is completely and utterly vile. It is the being afraid and then turning that fear into a reason to just flat out discriminate an entire group of people because of their own fears.

I'll let you in on a little known truth about me, due to my experiences in life, I am afraid of what strangers can do. This fear leads me to arm myself, because I have seen how the most random and polite conversation could end in one person taking the life of another. Now, how illegitimate do you think it would be of me to go around saying everyone else is a threatful, vile, murderous scumbag? Not very legitimate at all right? I decide to take the high road, I arm myself and continue interacting with people in good faith that they might never do the things I know they can do.

My posts consist of my opinions, beliefs, and experiences, feel free to disagree in a respectful manner.

I have a right to my beleifs, just as you have a right to not agree with them.

So long as we respect each other's beliefs, we won't have a single problem.


#38    third_eye

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Posted 28 June 2013 - 11:50 PM

as long as the attacks continues from either sides .. the attacks will continue ... why should one be silenced when the other is allowed a voice ?

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#39    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:12 AM

View PostxFelix, on 28 June 2013 - 11:13 PM, said:

Nobody is condemning anyone for holding fear of anyone else.

In general people do and will keep doing it..

Quote

       Fear is a very irrational thing        

It may be, but we all have our fears of something or other..

Quote

      quite frankly fear doesn't give a crap about being politically correct, or even morally correct, fear is fear, this is a known fact.                  

Well it is fear it wont care, it just takes control, a natural part of life.....For example, I have a massive fear of helicopters ( sometimes give me nightmares) If and when I see one, I freeze, fear takes over, it is powerful enough...  The trouble with political correctness is, it can go a bit too far and over the top...But I wont get into that.

Quote

      It is the being afraid and then turning that fear into a reason to just flat out discriminate an entire group of people because of their own fears.            
I agree, but at the same time we can't go telling people how they should feel, I know you don't do this, but many do....That's what's wrong with humans, too many out there telling others how they should feel and act.. The PC force !!!......Another example is - Say if there were British men going around some Muslim villages in Iraq, torturing Muslims and killing them...If a Muslim says," I do not like Brits, they are cruel people"  is this Muslim at fault?...My answer is no, in fact I would feel sorry for the man.  I wouldn't call what he said was vile, I would class it as fear driven and understandable..

It is not his ( the muslim ) fault if that was all he has seen from the British ..Same can be said for those who have only ever had the bad things reported, up in their faces  ( through media etc ) Constantly flashing nothing but bad news about certain people, where it gets to a point that it is all they seem to hear and read about.. This I feel should be taken into account, and like I said before, it is no different from the Muslims thoughts and fears of the British...

There are ways to encourage others to try and fight the fears, but when people in general  ( meaning in real life as well as on line ) slam others for showing fear and allowing that fear to discriminate and then some, chanting intolerance ( a word that I am sick of hearing) over and over, is not ever going to help. In fact, it may strengthen their fears and prejudice more so.

Quote

        I'll let you in on a little known truth about me, due to my experiences in life, I am afraid of what strangers can do. This fear leads me to arm myself, because I have seen how the most random and polite conversation could end in one person taking the life of another. Now, how illegitimate do you think it would be of me to go around saying everyone else is a threatful, vile, murderous scumbag? Not very legitimate at all right? I decide to take the high road, I arm myself and continue interacting with people in good faith that they might never do the things I know they can do.          
I fully understand your point and I agree with you..But we know that not everyone is strong enough to pull away from those fears...
I have seen this with animals too..I had a springer spaniel ( Charlie ) He was a loving dog, would have went over to anyone giving them his paw....But one day while Gary and I were out working, intruders came, broke in and robbed us...While they were there, they kicked the living crap out of our dog, and put him in his kennel turning the kennel upside down

This disturbed the poor dog, so much so, that after that, any time a stranger came to our home, Charlie would have went nuts and would have went for them...Before hand he was a timid little thing, but fear took over due to what happened....My point with that is - We are all animals, and we each have ways to try and control our own fears..Some of us cant do it and others can..It can be a struggle but luckily so many of us finally get there.. A helping hand would boost it....

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#40    GreenmansGod

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 12:39 AM

For me meeting a Muslim is the same as meeting a Christian or Jew. It is all the same to me.  I am really on the outside of all that. I have come to not really understanding it, any more, it makes no sense to me.

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#41    little_dreamer

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 01:54 AM

I had at least 2 muslim co-workers.   One man I worked with for a few years and he was very nice and intelligent.  He never looked down at me for being a woman.  He had a happy marriage with an educated wife and a baby.   During Ramadan we could see that he was not feeling as good as usual, so we did not demand so much from him.

The other one seemed to be a single man, very hostile to women, and just about everyone else.  He made me very uncomfortable but he didn't last long before leaving the company.

Edited by little_dreamer, 29 June 2013 - 01:54 AM.

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#42    libstaK

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Posted 29 June 2013 - 02:58 AM

View Postlittle_dreamer, on 29 June 2013 - 01:54 AM, said:

I had at least 2 muslim co-workers.   One man I worked with for a few years and he was very nice and intelligent.  He never looked down at me for being a woman.  He had a happy marriage with an educated wife and a baby.   During Ramadan we could see that he was not feeling as good as usual, so we did not demand so much from him.

The other one seemed to be a single man, very hostile to women, and just about everyone else.  He made me very uncomfortable but he didn't last long before leaving the company.
I work with some muslims and I have some as friends, they treat me the same way as anyone else I meet, I see no difference.  I do get a kick out of their love of dancing though and the food is absolutely great.  Having said that, none of the people I know wear hijabs or spout religion at me.

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