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Hundreds of Thousands protest in Egypt


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#181    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:27 PM

View PostYamato, on 12 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

The only principled solution to foreign welfare is to stop picking horses, stop suffering the blowback of our policies, stop meddling in the internal affairs of other countries like Egypt and Israel, and cut this dangerous umbilical cord that has us under terrorist attack and is destroying our liberty and bankrupting us.  

Helping foreigners isn't our "founding principle".  What in the world are you talking about?    Our foreign welfare to Egypt for the past 30+ years only served to cement princess Mubarak's power and enrich him personally on the backs of your countrymen and mine.   That you're assigning this aid to helping Egyptian democracy and freedom (freedom, in quotes) makes you look uninformed.

No, it's not appreciated.  Sorry, 70% of Egyptians don't want our money.  
http://www.gallup.co...onomic-aid.aspx

I'm not sure if misunderstanding 'what in the world I'm talking about' is mauvaise fois on your part, or because you are responding to half of the sentence only?

I said "The $ 1.5B Egypt receives from the US is appreciated and has allowed the US close partnership with the second major army of the region"  How could you construe that to mean that I'm assigning this aid to 'helping democracy' and 'freedom' when I clearly stated partnership with the army?

Where did I say that helping foreigners is part of your founding principles? By "founding principles" was referring to " ‘freedom’ and the democratic exercise of civil rights..The ideal situation would be when USA applies its founding principles and remain a friend of the Egyptian people, regardless of the governing regime.", it should have been obvious that I'm saying that this military aid ($1.3B out of $1.5 aid package) should not come at the cost of the tooted US principle of freedom as a universal, unalienable right, i.e. PEOPLE BEFORE REGIME !

You ignored all the points raised in my reply about aid being a partially indirect subsidy of American industry and farmers, that the main beneficiary is the Egyptian army, but just zoomed in on one word "appreciated"?! You call it welfare, but since when does 'welfare' consist of Abram tanks and F16s manufactured in Ohio, Michigan & Pennsylvania? Lockheed's contract alone is worth 2.5 billion, keeping their factories working. The economic aid has been mostly curtailed since late 1990s. In the past it was used to sell American wheat to one of the major buyers of wheat in the world.

Another small part went to schools and combatting infant mortality etc. That is appreciated by those who know about it, but not many do. As for the Gallup survey, you should have noticed that it dates back to Dec. 2011, the time when the NGOs offices were raided, SCAF and the media in Egypt were pushing the suspicion that US was behind the 2011 revolution. Right now the percentage of those who oppose the aid would be even higher.  


#182    Frank Merton

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:49 PM

No matter what the US does or does not do in the Middle East, it will be hated there.  Islam is a religion of hatred of infidels, the US is the most powerful infidel nation on the planet.


#183    and then

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 01:27 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 12 July 2013 - 09:14 PM, said:

But aid to Egypt was never about boosting Egyptian economy, general welfare or enhancing their military arsenal (let's say controlled assistance of military aid) was it?  Excluding Iraq, Israel and Egypt are the largest two recipients of U.S. aid respectively and so is (to a lesser degree) Jordan, Lebanon and Syria (or was).  What does that tell you?  It's all about facilitating Israel's acceptance in the Middle East.  It always has been since the 70's, obviously enhanced by the fact Egypt has the Suez Canal.

Some might urge that aid should be conditioned on demonstrable progress in extending full political and economic rights to women. Others, however, assert that the overt use of aid — or the threat of aid reductions — to promote "democracy and reform" in the Middle East region leads to a backlash against the United States.  Basically, the only ones gaining from this aid are militant extremists, autocratic governments and crooks (like Mubarak).  
I've also read that critics of U.S. aid policy, particularly in the Middle East, have argued that U.S. foreign aid exacerbates tensions and jealousy in the region.



l'm pretty sure the U.S. has no interest in assisting the Middle East in achieving mutual regional cooperation.  Imagine united Arabs financed by the rich Gulf States.  Israeli interests and security would be at high risk.
This is quite true.  Ever wonder what will happen when a country of about 8 million is pushed into a strategic decision to use nuclear weapons as a last resort before being over run?  Or do you think that could never happen?  That her neighbors don't really hate Israel THAT much?  Leave aside the fact that such events have already happened twice in the past 65 years -minus the nuclear retaliation.  See, this is the disconnect so many around the world have.  They hate Israel so much that they have tunnel vision about the reality of "NEVER AGAIN".  They don't believe the Jews mean it when they say this.  They somehow think they can overlook those nukes and that if just the right combination of forces and circumstances or allah or fate or SOMETHING...happens.... then they can finally be rid of these people they hate so much.  Now me..... if I see a guy with a Desert Eagle .50 cal tucked at his hip and he tells me he'll KILL ME if I try to attack him - I'm giving him a wide berth no matter how much I might hate him - but that's just me, I'm not as smart as many are here.
Point of all that is that the US got joined at the hip to Israel in 68 or so when Israel became a nuclear power.  Kennedy and Johnson tried their best to stop them but like the Iranians they found a way - with a little help from the French - and 'voila!!  They're stuck in the throats of those who hate them.

Edited by and then, 13 July 2013 - 01:29 AM.

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#184    Black Red Devil

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:09 PM

View Postand then, on 13 July 2013 - 01:27 AM, said:

This is quite true.  Ever wonder what will happen when a country of about 8 million is pushed into a strategic decision to use nuclear weapons as a last resort before being over run?  Or do you think that could never happen?  That her neighbors don't really hate Israel THAT much?  Leave aside the fact that such events have already happened twice in the past 65 years -minus the nuclear retaliation.  See, this is the disconnect so many around the world have.  They hate Israel so much that they have tunnel vision about the reality of "NEVER AGAIN".  They don't believe the Jews mean it when they say this.  They somehow think they can overlook those nukes and that if just the right combination of forces and circumstances or allah or fate or SOMETHING...happens.... then they can finally be rid of these people they hate so much.  Now me..... if I see a guy with a Desert Eagle .50 cal tucked at his hip and he tells me he'll KILL ME if I try to attack him - I'm giving him a wide berth no matter how much I might hate him - but that's just me, I'm not as smart as many are here.
Point of all that is that the US got joined at the hip to Israel in 68 or so when Israel became a nuclear power.  Kennedy and Johnson tried their best to stop them but like the Iranians they found a way - with a little help from the French - and 'voila!!  They're stuck in the throats of those who hate them.

The fact that the U.S. and Israel got "joined at the hip" wasn't circumstantial and nobody tried to stop them from gaining nukes, lets not fool ourselves.  The biased treatment of Israel by the U.S. and western allies since WWII , the partition plan, the military and economical aid, Zionism, constant breaches of Human Rights towards Palestinians, hiding behind the veto powers of the US and disrespect towards UN Resolutions, all these factors are what causes the Arabs to dislike the nation of Israel and Zionism.

There probably are extreme elements that also hate Jews because of some of the versus in the Quran but the revolution you see in Egypt and generally the Arab Spring has nothing to do with Israel.  U.S. and western interventionism has caused more problems in the Middle East (including the civilian population of Israel) than a million rockets from Gaza or Southern Lebanon will ever.

Edited by Black Red Devil, 13 July 2013 - 09:11 PM.

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#185    and then

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:22 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 13 July 2013 - 09:09 PM, said:

The fact that the U.S. and Israel got "joined at the hip" wasn't circumstantial and nobody tried to stop them from gaining nukes, lets not fool ourselves.  The biased treatment of Israel by the U.S. and western allies since WWII , the partition plan, the military and economical aid, Zionism, constant breaches of Human Rights towards Palestinians, hiding behind the veto powers of the US and disrespect towards UN Resolutions, all these factors are what causes the Arabs to dislike the nation of Israel and Zionism.

There probably are extreme elements that also hate Jews because of some of the versus in the Quran but the revolution you see in Egypt and generally the Arab Spring has nothing to do with Israel.  U.S. and western interventionism has caused more problems in the Middle East (including the civilian population of Israel) than a million rockets from Gaza or Southern Lebanon will ever.
I agree that the west and the US have meddled there too much.  I also agree that Israel has no dog in the current fight except that whichever dog wins will be trying to jump the fence and come after Israel next.  If you think the "extreme elements" that hate Jews because of the Qur'anic verses are few in number then all I can say is dream on.  Folks who speak of some "pre-Zionist" love fest between Arab and Jew simply do not take into account the fact that Islam can afford to be "generous" of spirit when they dominate.  When their dominance is questionable they resort to form.  In the days prior to Israel actually ruling their own territory, they were no threat and were accepted by their neighbors.  But a Jewish STATE?  Never, ever in a million years will Islam accept this.  Especially on territory once ruled by Islam.

Edited by and then, 13 July 2013 - 09:22 PM.

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#186    Black Red Devil

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 09:42 PM

View Postand then, on 13 July 2013 - 09:22 PM, said:

I agree that the west and the US have meddled there too much.  I also agree that Israel has no dog in the current fight except that whichever dog wins will be trying to jump the fence and come after Israel next.  If you think the "extreme elements" that hate Jews because of the Qur'anic verses are few in number then all I can say is dream on.  Folks who speak of some "pre-Zionist" love fest between Arab and Jew simply do not take into account the fact that Islam can afford to be "generous" of spirit when they dominate.  When their dominance is questionable they resort to form.  In the days prior to Israel actually ruling their own territory, they were no threat and were accepted by their neighbors.  But a Jewish STATE?  Never, ever in a million years will Islam accept this.  Especially on territory once ruled by Islam.

Actually, you hit the point (in the underlined part) but reading it the wrong way.  Jews were the minority, yes?  If they hated Jews so much why didn't they eliminate them all when they were occupied by the Ottomans?  Who could have stopped them?

ZIONISM changed things and the reason Arabs dislike the State of Israel.

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#187    and then

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 10:52 PM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 13 July 2013 - 09:42 PM, said:

Actually, you hit the point (in the underlined part) but reading it the wrong way.  Jews were the minority, yes?  If they hated Jews so much why didn't they eliminate them all when they were occupied by the Ottomans?  Who could have stopped them?

ZIONISM changed things and the reason Arabs dislike the State of Israel.
Zionism was what gave life to a Jewish state.  Until then they were just a minority who had fewer rights and were dhimmi in the culture and society.  Once they chose to assert themselves as equals the shtf.  Bottom line is it isn't ever going to end well.  It's just a matter of time.

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#188    Black Red Devil

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 12:22 AM

View Postand then, on 13 July 2013 - 10:52 PM, said:

Zionism was what gave life to a Jewish state.  Until then they were just a minority who had fewer rights and were dhimmi in the culture and society.  Once they chose to assert themselves as equals the shtf.  Bottom line is it isn't ever going to end well.  It's just a matter of time.

The Holocaust is what gave life to the Jewish State...sadly.

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#189    Merc14

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:07 AM

View PostBlack Red Devil, on 14 July 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

The Holocaust is what gave life to the Jewish State...sadly.

Sadly in what respect?  There are several meanings to that statement.

You asked for Obamamerica, now you are going to get it.  Stand by for suck or as Pelosi says, "Embrace the suck".

#190    Yamato

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 11:36 PM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 12 July 2013 - 11:27 PM, said:

I'm not sure if misunderstanding 'what in the world I'm talking about' is mauvaise fois on your part, or because you are responding to half of the sentence only?

I said "The $ 1.5B Egypt receives from the US is appreciated and has allowed the US close partnership with the second major army of the region"  How could you construe that to mean that I'm assigning this aid to 'helping democracy' and 'freedom' when I clearly stated partnership with the army?

Where did I say that helping foreigners is part of your founding principles? By "founding principles" was referring to " ‘freedom’ and the democratic exercise of civil rights..The ideal situation would be when USA applies its founding principles and remain a friend of the Egyptian people, regardless of the governing regime.", it should have been obvious that I'm saying that this military aid ($1.3B out of $1.5 aid package) should not come at the cost of the tooted US principle of freedom as a universal, unalienable right, i.e. PEOPLE BEFORE REGIME !

You ignored all the points raised in my reply about aid being a partially indirect subsidy of American industry and farmers, that the main beneficiary is the Egyptian army, but just zoomed in on one word "appreciated"?! You call it welfare, but since when does 'welfare' consist of Abram tanks and F16s manufactured in Ohio, Michigan & Pennsylvania? Lockheed's contract alone is worth 2.5 billion, keeping their factories working. The economic aid has been mostly curtailed since late 1990s. In the past it was used to sell American wheat to one of the major buyers of wheat in the world.

Another small part went to schools and combatting infant mortality etc. That is appreciated by those who know about it, but not many do. As for the Gallup survey, you should have noticed that it dates back to Dec. 2011, the time when the NGOs offices were raided, SCAF and the media in Egypt were pushing the suspicion that US was behind the 2011 revolution. Right now the percentage of those who oppose the aid would be even higher.  
I didn't ignore it if I said that Mubarak was not conducive to your freedom.  So trying to wrap this welfare up in a freedom wrapper is just ridiculous.   If we followed our founding principles there wouldn't be any foreign welfare to speak of because it's not authorized by the Constitution.

Egyptians don't want our aid, they don't appreciate our aid, they hate and resent the US and 100% of this aid should be cut off immediately regardless of regime.  Anything you've said here that you accuse of ignoring notwithstanding.  You want to bilk me regardless of regime, I get that.  

Time to cut the cord off from the Middle East and let it sink or swim on its own merits just like should be done with the rest of the planet Earth.



"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#191    Yamato

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Posted 16 July 2013 - 11:41 PM

View PostMerc14, on 14 July 2013 - 02:07 AM, said:

Sadly in what respect?  There are several meanings to that statement.
Sure there are several possible meanings.  What does it mean to you?   It means goading, guilt-tripping and bilking the US taxpayer using a false pretense to me.   The US military played a major role in ending the Holocaust.   Israel should be paying us but instead of showing its appreciation it wants to use the Holocaust as a cudgel to beat more money out of stupid republicans and stupid democrats.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#192    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 03:44 AM

View PostYamato, on 16 July 2013 - 11:36 PM, said:

I didn't ignore it if I said that Mubarak was not conducive to your freedom.  So trying to wrap this welfare up in a freedom wrapper is just ridiculous.   If we followed our founding principles there wouldn't be any foreign welfare to speak of because it's not authorized by the Constitution.

Egyptians don't want our aid, they don't appreciate our aid, they hate and resent the US and 100% of this aid should be cut off immediately regardless of regime.  Anything you've said here that you accuse of ignoring notwithstanding.  You want to bilk me regardless of regime, I get that.  

Time to cut the cord off from the Middle East and let it sink or swim on its own merits just like should be done with the rest of the planet Earth.




How exactly is “Mubarak was not conducive to your freedom” a relevant response to “aid being a partially indirect subsidy of American industry and farmers, that the main beneficiary is the Egyptian army”? Mubarak may have taken commissions on weapon contracts but he did not pocket 1.5 billion, it went to the army to buy American weapons.  I was hoping this would be a calm discussion of the Realpolitik aspect of the aid, not an emotional harangue, but I was mistaken! For the nth time, if you feel so strongly about aid policy, address your Congressman.

I neither want nor need to ‘bilk’ you, nor do I resort to ‘freedom wrappers’ of any kind. There was a time when USA stood for certain ideals the rest of the world looked up to, but you insist that this should not be the case, well, maybe you know better.  As for your link, whether it was a coup d’état or not is becoming a boring play on semantics. The vast majority of Egyptians calls it a revolution and both support and appreciate the role played by their army, despite what others anywhere define it. If this leads to the aid being cut, so be it. The aid will not be a used as a tool to force on Egyptians a failed president and the rule of a corrupt theocracy. You may have noticed that the planes which flew over Tahrir’s celebrations of the ouster of Mursi were French and Russian made, the army also will not be coerced into passively standing by, watching the ruin of Egypt.  

Claiming that Egyptians “hate and resent the US” is a rather paranoid generalization. Egyptians do not hate USA, but they certainly resent the bungling foreign policy of this administration when it insists on interfering uninvited in Egypt’s internal affairs, repeatedly hedging its bet on the wrong side. Personally, I do not hate it either. My view of the US is based on my experience when I joined an American university at the age of 16. My formative years were influenced by the best the US can offer, intellectually stimulating academia; but then I was surrounded by brilliant scholars!

Finally, you persist in viewing aid as a one way ‘charity’ which is politically naïve. As for cutting off the rest of the world, it brings this to mind:” Storm in Channel. Continent Cut Off”.

I think we have both already said ad nauseam everything we have to say about the topic of aid, I at least am not putting any more time in the discussion of this point.








































#193    Yamato

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:52 AM

View Postmeryt-tetisheri, on 17 July 2013 - 03:44 AM, said:

How exactly is “Mubarak was not conducive to your freedom” a relevant response to “aid being a partially indirect subsidy of American industry and farmers, that the main beneficiary is the Egyptian army”? Mubarak may have taken commissions on weapon contracts but he did not pocket 1.5 billion, it went to the army to buy American weapons.  I was hoping this would be a calm discussion of the Realpolitik aspect of the aid, not an emotional harangue, but I was mistaken! For the nth time, if you feel so strongly about aid policy, address your Congressman.

I neither want nor need to ‘bilk’ you, nor do I resort to ‘freedom wrappers’ of any kind. There was a time when USA stood for certain ideals the rest of the world looked up to, but you insist that this should not be the case, well, maybe you know better.  As for your link, whether it was a coup d’état or not is becoming a boring play on semantics. The vast majority of Egyptians calls it a revolution and both support and appreciate the role played by their army, despite what others anywhere define it. If this leads to the aid being cut, so be it. The aid will not be a used as a tool to force on Egyptians a failed president and the rule of a corrupt theocracy. You may have noticed that the planes which flew over Tahrir’s celebrations of the ouster of Mursi were French and Russian made, the army also will not be coerced into passively standing by, watching the ruin of Egypt.  

Claiming that Egyptians “hate and resent the US” is a rather paranoid generalization. Egyptians do not hate USA, but they certainly resent the bungling foreign policy of this administration when it insists on interfering uninvited in Egypt’s internal affairs, repeatedly hedging its bet on the wrong side. Personally, I do not hate it either. My view of the US is based on my experience when I joined an American university at the age of 16. My formative years were influenced by the best the US can offer, intellectually stimulating academia; but then I was surrounded by brilliant scholars!

Finally, you persist in viewing aid as a one way ‘charity’ which is politically naïve. As for cutting off the rest of the world, it brings this to mind:” Storm in Channel. Continent Cut Off”.

I think we have both already said ad nauseam everything we have to say about the topic of aid, I at least am not putting any more time in the discussion of this point.

Your entitlement complex to my money knows no bounds, does it?   Whatever your views are of the US are irrelevant.  We can set a good example in the world and other countries will want to emulate us.  We don't have to make the world a better place by enabling you to shirk your own responsibility and give you money for what you're responsible for doing yourself.

Government aid is money taken by coercion.  The essence of government is force.  So money that's taken by force is bilking money from its source.   I have no problem with any American giving whatever they want to give to Egypt if that's what they want to do.   Likewise, if you cared enough about America then you would give voluntarily to whatever American charitable organization you deem important enough to give to.

How was Mubarak not conducive to freedom?   Egypt was an authoritarian state under his rule.  Mubarak prevents my freedom.   The opportunity cost of the $50 billion we've paid out to his regime (whether it's military or not doesn't matter) prevented the other uses of that money that would have been deployed here at home.  We've got starving children over here.  We've got a health care crisis over here.  We've got crumbling infrastructure over here.  We've got economic instability, monetary inflation and exponential growth in the national debt over here.   The oppressive policies Egyptians have lived under throughout his rule prevents your freedom.   He is reduced to a footnote in history, endlessly justifying his policies under the banner of "stability" is over.  Well his stability ran out of popular support, obviously.  His plutocracy impoverished millions of Egyptians and satiated their acquiescence with subsidized handouts, he's a mass murderer, a torturer of political prisoners, he's a fraudster, he's abused his power to acquire vast wealth on the backs of the Egyptian people.  That I even have to say this, that you're this defensive of that crook, shows the level of bias that we're dealing with here.  At least you support this 2nd iteration of the Egyptian Revolution.

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#194    Yamato

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:59 AM

"Paranoid generalization" that Egyptians hate the US?    I'm just mindful of the truth.  Egyptians definitely don't appreciate all the sweetheart Zionist "stability" money you got for all these decades and Rand Paul is right, it's time to cut this welfare off once and for all.

Posted Image


Some "stability".   What a joke.

https://www.google.c...iw=1876&bih=972

"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#195    meryt-tetisheri

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Posted 17 July 2013 - 05:17 PM

Posted Image


You would be making a lot more sense if you bothered to read what you are supposedly responding to before you reply. Had you done that you would not have started your post with such a preposterous question when I clearly said “If this leads to the aid being cut, so be it”. Actually, a drive has started in Egypt for a petition against the aid; and if your question was addressed to me, I can assure you that Meryt has no need for Yamato’s money.  On a discussion board, my view of USA is as relevant as yours about ‘bilking and shirking responsibility’ (which you never fail to bring up in any discussion on this board).

As for Mubarak, you are preaching to the choir, but try to distinguish between being factual and accurate, and being defensive.  No matter what his crimes were, he did not stash the 50 billion in a personal Swiss account, they were used to buy weapons and unlike Assad, these weapons were never used to bomb cities in Egypt. Mubarak’s tools of oppression were the police and its secret services not the army. Unlike you, I actually lived in Egypt during Mubarak’s era and experienced it first hand, not just read about it, so stop throwing bias accusations around when facts do not fit with your views.

If government aid is coercion, then you are being coerced by your own government which exacts the taxes from you. It is your government and legislature which collects and allocates the tax revenue according to their priorities, not Egypt and definitely not me.

As for your second post, an opinion is an appraisal, a judgment, whereas hate which you claimed is an emotion and there is a distinction between both.  Your Google search results include a jumble of pictures from Pakistan, India, Gaza…A closer look at those taken in Egypt would have put them in context for you: the anti-Prophet film protests which were called for by the MB, USA’s handpicked protégés at the time; and the Sept 9, 2011 demonstrations which were also called for by the MB to embarrass SCAF. Now you see how bungled the US foreign policy can be. If you still prefer the “oh they hate us” then it’s your choice.

Responding to any more off topic aid bemoaning posts would be an exercise in futility that I have no patience for.


Edited by meryt-tetisheri, 17 July 2013 - 05:20 PM.





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