Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 2 votes

Atheists meet God...


  • Please log in to reply
263 replies to this topic

#46    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 12,302 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • - God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi -

    "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

Posted 02 July 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 02 July 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

I think its you that doesn't understand atheists.

Okie dokie ...

~

He who postpones the hour of living rightly ... is like the rustic who waits for the river to run out ... before he crosses.
Horace - Roman lyric poet & satirist 65 BC - 8 BC
~

third_eye cavern ~ bring own beer


#47    Ehrman Pagels 1

Ehrman Pagels 1

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,479 posts
  • Joined:16 Jan 2012
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:21 AM

View PostFstop, on 02 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

IF there is a God or Goddess for that matter then he/she must be omnipotent enough to realize that he/she created me to be a questioning and doubting person despite my efforts to the contrary.  I think I would rather have some questions for such a being, like "if you wanted me to believe in you, and you know how difficult it is for me to accept things for which there is no evidence, then why didn't you provide some along the way for me?"  Or perhaps "God, if you truly care about people in this world and are truly omnipotent, then why in your glorious power have you not settled the question of who/what is the true God of our world so that people can stop killing each other over it?  Why do you allow death and destruction in your name when you could easily settle the question and save so much life?"

I think that I'd have a lot more questions for God than God would have for me.
Hi Fstop,

Have you ever been in a situation where your knowledge and attainments had become totally useless to get yourself out of that situation?

I believe Jesus/God wants us to get or achieve THE highest reality this world can offer...in order for us to appreciate His glory and mercy. Therefore, there has to be a reversal after we find that "pot of gold at the end of the rainbow." By the way, it doesn't matter how we achieve whatever it is we think is THAT highest reality (as long as we feel clean about getting it, as in clear conscience).

I'm basing this belief on my afterlife experience and the following Bible verses:


"Jesus heard that they had thrown him (the blind man) out, and when he found him, he said, 'Do you believe in the Son of Man?' The blind man asked, 'Who is he, sir? Tell me so that I may believe in him.' Jesus said, 'You have now seen him; in fact, he is the one speaking with you.' Then the man said, 'Lord, I believe,' and he worshiped him." John 9:35-38

"Jesus said to him, 'If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes.'" MARK 9:23

"For God has given us a spirit, not of fear, but of power and love...and self-discipline." 2 TIMOTHY 1:17

"Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse you of doing wrong, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day He visits us."  1 PETER 2:12

Peace.


#48    Amalthe

Amalthe

    Apparition

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 265 posts
  • Joined:07 Feb 2012
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Croaton

Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:33 AM

The question itself is not probably very relevant. The point is, if one believes and lives by principles of morality, good will, and humility, he believes in God, even without knowing that. Having personal knowledge of existance of God doesn't automatically mean behaving in morally appropriate way. Fellen angels have personal experience with God, yet they chose to reject his character.


#49    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 02 July 2013 - 11:43 AM

View Postkrypter3, on 01 July 2013 - 11:15 PM, said:

I just realised this guy twisted the Green Lantern oath to fit religion.  Blasphemy.

You JUST realised? lol.

What evil lurks in the hearts of men?

God knows.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#50    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:10 PM

View Postkrypter3, on 01 July 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

The god some of you people describe is no better than the worst dictators in human history.  A man wou think's it's his right to have people bow to him.  To kneel before him and give him their unconditional faith.  If you don't give him love and respect, you will be condemned to a life of servitude in hell.  He will also condemn Homosexuals and sinners.  Let's not forget what sins are, Lust (wanting to be with the person you love, aka your wife.  Even religious people have families.), Greed (wanting something), Pride (you are never proud of your family or accomplishments) need I go on?, Gluttony, Envy, Sloth, Wrath.  

Those seven 'sins' as people call them are the foundation of the Human condition.  You hate gays?  Guess what sin that is....Wrath.

The so called seven sins that will condemn you to hell describe every single human being with a heart & brain and no matter how hard you want or try to deny it.  You cannot deny that you are human and everyone feel's these fundamental feelings.

These "seven" deadly sins are emotions that Make us Human

If your so called "god" says I am going to go to hell because I don't believe in him, I support homosexuality and I feel every one of those emotions on a daily basis.  How is that any different to a Dictator.  That sounds awefully like Hitler to me.  A man who wanted a pure race in his vision and condemned anyone who didn't worship him or fit his view of a perfect being to death camps.

I am Agnostic and a science person.  I don't believe god made the earth in seven days but think there could be some higher plane of existence.  If god is real, I would hope he is far more enlightened then his human worshippers make him out to be.

You have all the sins wrong in your understanding and that explains much.

Humans do not have to feel anger or greed or lust or envy. They do not have to be lazy.  Even if they feel these primitive emotionall drivers, they do not ahve to act on them No one can say "he made me angry so I killed him" and get away with that We have to beablew to control and master our emotioal responses  These are all choices.

In christian theology god just asks people to choose better more productive and creative emotions. Like love, honesty, trust, compassion, altruism/charity; and spiritual living rather than materialistic living.

Lust is not wanting to have sex with a person you love, it is a burning desire to gratify your own needs. You can lust after money or power as much as sex. Anger is a harmful and destructive emotion. It is better for us psychologically to forgive or to saty calm and self disciplined even tranquil in our thoughts. Envy is a part of materialism which detracts from the more important element of humanity; our human spirit.

The bible encousrages us to take pride in our accomplishments, but to remeber that they flow from gods' gifts to us; of our life and our natural talents.

But we are also told to use thise talents wisely and effectively  There is nothing wrong with pride in work well done or the achievements of effort and discipline. Perhaps that should even be called something else, to distinguish it from false pride in things we did nothing to earn.

God does not threaten hell, he promises eternal life. Something not offered outside of religious belief  We can always chose death in reality and in belief  The reality of this is shown in the condition of humanity on earth today. Each of us is part alive and part dead. We can all chose to be so much more alive, and less dead, by thinking and acting in certain ways. Thinking with spiritual inteligence awakens a part of humanity which does not exist in a purely material mindset. It brings us more alive to the universe and to our own potential. We become what we have evolved the potential to become, as self aware sapient beings.

God is not a dictator. He does not compel or force. He is a parent and a teacher, who points out the differnt results from differnt choices, and then allows us to make those choices ourselves if you do not like the outcomes god points out then thats your business you do not havee to believ and if you do not believe then you cannot be trheatend by god.

But many people act like  they do when confronted by warnings on cigarette packets. They blame the govt for pointing out the dangers of smoking and making them feel uncomfortable in smoking rather than getting the pleasure and satisfaction they want from smoking

They blame the govt for daring to make them feel guilty. If you want to go on smoking you can, but you have been warned. If you chose to disbelieve those health warnings you can. But again, you have no excuse for ignorance. If the govt failed to put those warnings on the packets they would be negligent in their duty of care.

Think of god's warnings in the same way. If he didnt point out the natural consequences of certain thoughts and behaviours he would be negligent in his duty of care, and clearly uncaring and unloving about humanity

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#51    libstaK

libstaK

    Nosce Te Ipsum

  • 7,178 posts
  • Joined:06 Feb 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

  • Hello Reality and all that is True
    When Oxymoron was defined it was just for you

Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:20 PM

View Postkrypter3, on 01 July 2013 - 11:32 PM, said:

The god some of you people describe is no better than the worst dictators in human history.  A man wou think's it's his right to have people bow to him.  To kneel before him and give him their unconditional faith.  If you don't give him love and respect, you will be condemned to a life of servitude in hell.  He will also condemn Homosexuals and sinners.  Let's not forget what sins are, Lust (wanting to be with the person you love, aka your wife.  Even religious people have families.),
That is not Lust - it is Love :wub:

Quote

Greed (wanting something),
What we desire can lead us around by the nose - that is the part that leads to sin, not just the wanting itself.

Quote

Pride (you are never proud of your family or accomplishments) need I go on?
Being proud of your family is not the deadly part, it is the part where Pride tells you that you and your family are superior or more worthy than others and their families - that's how one clan or group comes to believe they are righteous in the killing of another clan or group .... just saying.

Quote

, Gluttony, Envy, Sloth, Wrath.
They are a touch more obvious but then that is why they are not as lethal as Lust or Pride, subconsciously you know this as you did not try to justify these four but your lust and your pride are full of excuses for their behaviour - how else could they control you but to convince you they are perfectly okay.

The thing is what they won't let you realise while you are in their "throes" is that Love and Humility will bring your family closer and make your accomplishments worthy in the eyes of others.  The greatest of men and women have all faced being humbled, Gandhi, Nelson Mandela, The Dalai Llama - take a look at just the lives of those 3 to start and you will see the true power of humility, so many have brought them to their lowest point and all three humbly and sincerely forgave their accusers and walked with purpose rather than pride ever onward toward their goals.

Quote

Those seven 'sins' as people call them are the foundation of the Human condition.  You hate gays?  Guess what sin that is....Wrath.
Totally agree - in some cases it may also be Envy or Pride - Judge not lest thou be Judged ALWAYS needs to be fully understood before you even begin to look at the nature of the seven deadlies - because the lessons are for ourselves, not for us to teach or judge others with - we need to know ourselves first and foremost when we do, for some strange reason what we feel for others becomes overwhelmingly a mix of empathy and compassion.

Quote

The so called seven sins that will condemn you to hell describe every single human being with a heart & brain and no matter how hard you want or try to deny it.  You cannot deny that you are human and everyone feel's these fundamental feelings.
You are absolutely right, we all have these within us but here is something to ponder - Does your mind control you, or do you control your mind?

I like this quote from the Gospel of Thomas:

Jesus says: "Blessed is the lion which a man eats so that the lion becomes a man. But cursed is the man whom a lion eats so that the man becomes a lion!"

Basically, will you devour your sin and reconcile with your conscience or will your sin devour you and make of you a poor lion faced caricature of what you could truly be?

Quote

If your so called "god" says I am going to go to hell because I don't believe in him, I support homosexuality and I feel every one of those emotions on a daily basis.  How is that any different to a Dictator.  That sounds awefully like Hitler to me.  A man who wanted a pure race in his vision and condemned anyone who didn't worship him or fit his view of a perfect being to death camps.
We all feel at least some of those emotions on a daily basis and all of them will affect our lives regularly, we don't all believe others are going to hell for experiencing them, although a man can make a hell of his own if he allows his emotions to rule him - as a man of science and logic, you probably understand that better than many could, again just a thought.

Quote

I am Agnostic and a science person.  I don't believe god made the earth in seven days but think there could be some higher plane of existence.  If god is real, I would hope he is far more enlightened then his human worshippers make him out to be.
I can't speak for God but my gut tells me you have a good chance of being pleasantly surprised :tu:

Edited by libstaK, 02 July 2013 - 12:28 PM.

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#52    Mr Walker

Mr Walker

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 19,354 posts
  • Joined:09 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Not Selected
  • Location:Australia

  • Sometimes the Phantom leaves the jungle, and walks the streets of the city like an ordinary man.

Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:23 PM

View PostAmalthe, on 02 July 2013 - 11:33 AM, said:

The question itself is not probably very relevant. The point is, if one believes and lives by principles of morality, good will, and humility, he believes in God, even without knowing that. Having personal knowledge of existance of God doesn't automatically mean behaving in morally appropriate way. Fellen angels have personal experience with God, yet they chose to reject his character.

Yup, and even knowing god, and having god in my heart and my mind, I am only human and go in opposition to his will quite often.  In some ways belief in god is a much more powerful driver than truly knowing god, because belief is a stronger motivator than knowledge, in that belief contains within itself the absolute power and command of belief.

Reality is a different kettle of fish. Reality allows choices that a true believer does not allow them selves.  . For example my wife often says to me, "god wouldnt approve of you acting like that" based on her beliefs about god. My response is, "Well in that case he will let me know" based on my knowledge of god. (and he will,  most clearly and effectively if he choses to.) I try to act in gods will because I know he is in my heart and mind all the time and it embarrases me when I let him down. But i do not have a powerful, belief driven, power compelling me to certain behaviours or choices.

Mostly, god knows that i know right from wrong and allows me to make choices, even when they are wrong. He relies on my own conscience, ethics and morality, to try and do right as much as i can. Just sometimes he overrides me or forcefully puts his case or reprimands and shows a better way And then he physically protects me when I do something truly stupid, or if I am in another form of danger from my behaviour, or from an outside force.

Edited by Mr Walker, 02 July 2013 - 12:28 PM.

You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.

Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion of life keep peace with your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world..

Be cheerful.

Strive to be happy.

#53    krypter3

krypter3

    Extraterrestrial Entity

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 433 posts
  • Joined:10 Feb 2013
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Australia

Posted 02 July 2013 - 12:41 PM

If you really think that humans don't feel lust, Anger, Greed and gluttony than you are fooling yourself.  Without them...you aren't human.  It's what make's us human, our emotions.  And if you can sit there and tell me you've never felt Lust, Anger, Pride, Greed or any of those.  Then I will sit here and call you a dead set liar.


#54    White Crane Feather

White Crane Feather

    Seeker79

  • Member
  • 12,999 posts
  • Joined:12 Jul 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Potter: " is this real or is this in my mind?"

    Dumbledore: " Of course it's in your mind....., but that dosn't mean it's not real."

Posted 02 July 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostJor-el, on 01 July 2013 - 10:27 PM, said:

Imagine if you will a hypothetical situation, (please don't argue the possibility or impossibility of such an encounter)....

After having lived a full and plentiful life as an atheist, you die, and much to your surprise, there is God waiting to for you... :santa:

He looks at you and asks.... What have you got to say for yourself?

How would you answer?
God doesn't use language or blame.

If I were to meet the abrahamic god  I would ask "what do you have to say for yourself?"

Seriously I'd like to understand.

In reality meeting god all one can do is marvel. If god lets you understand then you are lucky.



Edited by Seeker79, 02 July 2013 - 01:37 PM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#55    libstaK

libstaK

    Nosce Te Ipsum

  • 7,178 posts
  • Joined:06 Feb 2011
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Melbourne, Australia

  • Hello Reality and all that is True
    When Oxymoron was defined it was just for you

Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:41 PM

View Postkrypter3, on 02 July 2013 - 12:41 PM, said:

If you really think that humans don't feel lust, Anger, Greed and gluttony than you are fooling yourself.  Without them...you aren't human.  It's what make's us human, our emotions.  And if you can sit there and tell me you've never felt Lust, Anger, Pride, Greed or any of those.  Then I will sit here and call you a dead set liar.
Who on here has said they don't experience these things?  Who are you aiming this at?

"I warn you, whoever you are, oh you who wish to probe the arcanes of nature, if you do not find within yourself that which you seek, neither shall you find it outside.
If you ignore the excellencies of your own house, how do you intend to find other excellencies?
In you is hidden the treasure of treasures, Oh man, know thyself and you shall know the Universe and the Gods."

Inscription - Temple of Delphi

#56    _Only

_Only

  • Member
  • 6,782 posts
  • Joined:24 Oct 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Northern California

  • Did you ever grow anything in the garden of your mind? You can grow ideas, in the garden of your mind. - Mr. Rogers

Posted 02 July 2013 - 02:59 PM

View PostEmma_Acid, on 02 July 2013 - 08:31 AM, said:

Why are you assuming they actually mean the biblical God? When I say "oh god" or "Jesus!" I'm not praying, I'm swearing. The idea that atheists revert to religion when under stress is an assumption that has no foundation.

No, it has foundation. You may not agree with it, or see yourself doing it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and definitely doesn't mean it has no foundation. I say this with authority, because I've done it. I've begged for a way out from a bad situation by some unknown 'god' type when completely not believing of any in my normal day to day life. I had been jaded by overly strict Christian parents and seeing the oddity of actions of people at church. My reasoning and past experiences led me to understand that Christianity, and in turn a god, were unrealistic and sometimes ridiculous ideas that I didn't follow. That changed uickly when I would get in a sticky situation. I would ask for help. I didn't even say "oh, god" or "holy Jesus" or any other term that could be misconstrued later as only light cussing or simply phrases of expressive emotion. I begged something to help me. I didn't give it a name, but I had the idea of a god type in my mind, and the resulting "well, it doesn't hurt to try" idea did also enter my mind during the time.

So there is a bit of foundation. I am certain I am not the _only one who has done it.

"I think there may be "ghost phenomenon" that may be still not fully understood or dismissed, but that doesn't make it spirits of the dead, anymore than "UFO" means "spaceship" or even "UFO" or "spaceship" is directly related to aliens, or anything else. There is way too much assumption and a baseless reliance on anecdotal lore, like when people assert this or that about the spirit world or the astral plane or Ouija board demons, or religion. I say 'says WHO?'" - Paranormalcy

#57    Emma_Acid

Emma_Acid

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 5,099 posts
  • Joined:29 Jan 2007
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:London

Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:03 PM

View Post_Only, on 02 July 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

No, it has foundation. You may not agree with it, or see yourself doing it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen, and definitely doesn't mean it has no foundation. I say this with authority, because I've done it. I've begged for a way out from a bad situation by some unknown 'god' type when completely not believing of any in my normal day to day life. I had been jaded by overly strict Christian parents and seeing the oddity of actions of people at church. My reasoning and past experiences led me to understand that Christianity, and in turn a god, were unrealistic and sometimes ridiculous ideas that I didn't follow. That changed uickly when I would get in a sticky situation. I would ask for help. I didn't even say "oh, god" or "holy Jesus" or any other term that could be misconstrued later as only light cussing or simply phrases of expressive emotion. I begged something to help me. I didn't give it a name, but I had the idea of a god type in my mind, and the resulting "well, it doesn't hurt to try" idea did also enter my mind during the time.

So there is a bit of foundation. I am certain I am not the _only one who has done it.

I understand this, but the assumption that every atheist becomes a zealot at the first sign of mortal trouble is just plain wrong.

Science isn’t about truth and falsity, it’s about reducing uncertainty ~ Brian Nosek

#58    Almagest

Almagest

    Paranormal Investigator

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 838 posts
  • Joined:16 Mar 2013

Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:16 PM

I'm assuming I'm faced with the Christian God in this scenario, because it's just as likely that, if there is a God that we all face after death, that it is as foreign to the Christian mind than it is to the Atheist mind. In that scenario I'd ask which religion is right and chuckle when they tell me Raelism is the one true religion.

But in the scenario of Yahweh, I'd take a page from Hitchen's book and ask this; If anatomically modern homo sapiens have lived, suffered and died for between 100 and 200 thousand years, why did you wait until about 4000BC to intervene in the affairs of men and why did you pick the violent and xenophobic Israelites as your chosen people?

Heaven and hell suppose two distinct species of men, the good and the bad. But the greatest part of mankind float betwixt vice and virtue. - David Hume

#59    scowl

scowl

    Government Agent

  • Closed
  • 4,111 posts
  • Joined:17 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 02 July 2013 - 03:51 PM

View PostFstop, on 02 July 2013 - 04:14 AM, said:

IF there is a God or Goddess for that matter then he/she must be omnipotent enough to realize that he/she created me to be a questioning and doubting person despite my efforts to the contrary.  I think I would rather have some questions for such a being, like "if you wanted me to believe in you, and you know how difficult it is for me to accept things for which there is no evidence, then why didn't you provide some along the way for me?"

A common religious theory is that God wants you to willingly abandon all questions and doubts about Him that your logical mind will create. If you "really" believed in God then you wouldn't ask for unimportant things like "evidence".


#60    Arpee

Arpee

    .::The Spirit Gives Life::.

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,413 posts
  • Joined:08 Jan 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Heaven on Earth

  • ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    "Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God." - Matthew 5:9

Posted 02 July 2013 - 04:08 PM

Some Gnostic Atheists seem like they are holding on to anger or something like they need forgiveness in their hearts to move passed it and have a happier life.

Saying "there is no God" as an absolute fact and being inconsiderate of people's beliefs is kind of a bitter attitude. Now, if an Atheist say "I don't think there is a God, maybe they just made it up for comfort or something", notice the big difference. One seems like he or she is bitter holding on to anger and the other just seems sincere like it is just a conclusion they reached but open-minded saying "I think" there is no God instead of saying "I know" (which would be impossible).


With that being said, I don't believe in "Gods" but I do believe in spirits that are more powerful and can help you. I also believe that everything is made of energy and this energy can be manipulated through prayer. Calling a spirit a "God" is to make oneself inferior. If there is some I call God, it would be the total some of this energy that flows through all life and existence - known and unknown to man.

View PostAlmagest, on 02 July 2013 - 03:16 PM, said:

I'm assuming I'm faced with the Christian God in this scenario, because it's just as likely that, if there is a God that we all face after death, that it is as foreign to the Christian mind than it is to the Atheist mind. In that scenario I'd ask which religion is right and chuckle when they tell me Raelism is the one true religion.

Or maybe these different "Gods" were powerful spirits and humans made up religions around them saying that "their" God was the best.

"But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil." - Luke 6:35




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users