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19 firemen died this week


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#1    danielost

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 09:50 AM

19 firemen were killed in an arizona wild fire this week.

I would like to say to the families that I stand with you on this.  I pray that you and the rest of your families are doing well.

To the nineteen men thank you for your service in helping to save lives.  May we learn from your scacrifice so that no other families will lose their sons, husbands, and fathers.  You are heros in every sence of the word.

Maybe someone will add a link for me.

Also a charity has been set up for the families. I think it is through united ways.  Please someone add a link for this if you can.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-23123817

Edited by Daughter of the Nine Moons, 03 July 2013 - 10:34 AM.
Link courtesy of Becky's Mom

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
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There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
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#2    freetoroam

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:09 AM

danielost, very nice and touching.
But I must point out, with out being disrespectful to the families, this is a very high risk job, but saying that I find that in this day and age, with the amount of H&S this and H&S that, 19 seems pretty high, but its man fighting the forces of nature and we know we will never come out tops on that one without some casualties.

In an ideal World a law would be passed were NO guns were allowed and all those out there destroyed, trouble is the law makers are not going to take a risk of trying to pass that without making sure they are armed first.

#3    danielost

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:32 AM

That doesn't mean we can't regret it or learn from it.  Just like the ice road drivers, they are heros to those villages that rrely on them to bring them what they need to survive the summer.
I only wish I was a better writer to do them to stand up to their sacrifice.

Thank you daugters of the moon for the link.

Edited by danielost, 03 July 2013 - 10:39 AM.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#4    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 10:34 AM

Yes daniel I have read this same story...It is shocking

From the news article I read...

Quote

They died while fighting the blaze threatening the town of Yarnell, about 80 miles (130km) north-west of Phoenix.
The fire was started by lightning on Friday and has spread rapidly to 2,000 acres (800 ha) amid high heat, low humidity and strong winds.      

If anyone wants to read the article I have it here -> http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-23123817

They died trying to save a town...I know it's their job, and they are what I and so many would call - True heroes...But it is still very sad to hear of people dying trying to save others...

Fire fighters, you are true heroes, not many of us can say we died trying to save lives....RIP fire fighters,..heart goes out to the families

Edited by Beckys_Mom, 03 July 2013 - 10:36 AM.

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#5    Beckys_Mom

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:05 AM

Thank you DOT..for posting the link into the OP  :D

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#6    libstaK

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 11:39 AM

I read about this too.  They died trying to put a fire break in place, apparently their safe zone was not adequate to protect them, the wind changes must have been pretty extreme, these were seasoned fire fighters, it is pretty rare for this to occur.

I know they put their lives on the line as part of their job but can lessons be learned here?  There was no immediate threat to civilians, should they have been in the situation they found themselves?  I'm not suggesting they did anything they shouldn't - I'm sure history and precedent were on their side telling them they were acting within training and regulations and therefore relatively safe, but now we have a new precedent and they need to be last to die in this circumstance, it was not worth the loss of life the way it occurred, this was a terrible tragedy.

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#7    danielost

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 02:40 PM

I feel sorry for the one surviver.  How long will he double think himself and blame himself.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#8    Gummug

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 04:27 PM

This was a very great tragedy indeed, and may they rest in peace.
There is another thing that concerns me, and I'm sure others on this site know more about this than I, and that is, my understanding is that forest fires are bound to occur every so often, it is nature's way of getting rid of dead wood. My point is, where I'm trying to go with this, when the econazis try and prevent ANY wildfire from occuring, what happens, sure, maybe they prevent some, or arrest some, but then the deadwood builds up so that when the inevitable "unstoppable" wildfire occurs, it is maybe 2 or 3 times more fierce than it otherwise would have been. Any thoughts on this?

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#9    msmike1

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:08 PM

View PostGummug, on 03 July 2013 - 04:27 PM, said:

This was a very great tragedy indeed, and may they rest in peace.
There is another thing that concerns me, and I'm sure others on this site know more about this than I, and that is, my understanding is that forest fires are bound to occur every so often, it is nature's way of getting rid of dead wood. My point is, where I'm trying to go with this, when the econazis try and prevent ANY wildfire from occuring, what happens, sure, maybe they prevent some, or arrest some, but then the deadwood builds up so that when the inevitable "unstoppable" wildfire occurs, it is maybe 2 or 3 times more fierce than it otherwise would have been. Any thoughts on this?

You are right in a lot of ways. Where I live we do prescribed burns to prevent this very thing. With as much rural land as we have down here a wildfire would be devastating. There is so much public land down here, I live on the edge of a 500,000 acre national forest for example. To combat wildfires, the forest service will come in and light large areas on purpose to burn off all the fuel that has accumulated. They do this in a controlled way. Unfortunately, out west, the winds are so unpredictable, and the humidity so low, that prescribed burning is really not possible. So, nature takes care of it.

I feel strongly for these men and their families. They were an elite firefighting team that were in the wrong place at the wrong time. When a fire gets to a certain size it can actually start creating its own weather. This includes winds that can change on a dime. This is what happened in this case if I am not mistaken. The fire had gotten so large that estimating wind direction became a problem. The prevailing winds changed suddenly and the men became trapped. It was definitely a horrible situation.

Unfortunatley, nature has a way of taking care of herself. If we get in the way of that for one reason or another then the outcome is not always good.

Mike


#10    danielost

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 05:39 PM

The usa government stand on none-man caused wild fire is to let it burn except where it might endanger people or property.  So, yes that town was in danger otherwise these men wouldn't have been there.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#11    pallidin

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Posted 03 July 2013 - 07:13 PM

View Postdanielost, on 03 July 2013 - 02:40 PM, said:

I feel sorry for the one surviver.  How long will he double think himself and blame himself.

Yes, I saw the news on this.

I can't imagine the horrible self-blame he might be going through, even though none of it was his fault, say, in communications or otherwise.

Still, I'm not sure how well I would take it, knowing that I was the sole survivor.

Some type of authority(fire department chief?) say's that he wants privacy, and asks the news media to respect that.

I would agree.

I also would hope that the sole survivor is carefully watched over, as suicide is not uncommon given the enormity of grief likely in this case.

Edited by pallidin, 03 July 2013 - 07:14 PM.


#12    Thanato

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 12:06 PM

The surviving member if the group should talk to a professional. If he is suffering survivors guilt because he wasn't there, the best course of action he can take is to talk to a professional and they can do wonders sorting through the guilt and that there was nothing he could of done ect.

They have helped hundreds if not thousands of Military members through this same process.

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#13    pallidin

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Posted 04 July 2013 - 05:46 PM

View PostThanato, on 04 July 2013 - 12:06 PM, said:

The surviving member if the group should talk to a professional. If he is suffering survivors guilt because he wasn't there, the best course of action he can take is to talk to a professional and they can do wonders sorting through the guilt and that there was nothing he could of done ect.

They have helped hundreds if not thousands of Military members through this same process.

Yeah, "survivors' guilt" can be especially hard to handle(internally), particularly if the survivor was emotionally attached to the deceased.

I recall an incident, here in my small city, that was incredible, both on the event and the compassionate response of the SWAT team...

I was driving towards downtown, and I heard bullets being fired and whizzing through the trees above my car(I was not a target)
Soon I could drive no further, as there were police barricades and was told to leave the area immediately.

I went to a favorite laundrymat and the owner has a police scanner because her son is in the police. I asked her what was going on.

She said that a man was holed-up in a motel, firing a rifle out his motel window, not at people, but higher in the air.

She said that he was upset that health officials were trying to remove 6 pet rats that he had(6-8, can't remember) and got upset and violent.

Turns-out that he was/is a Vietnam Vet that was involved in a horrific situation back then.

Apparently, according to her and the local media, he was in Vietnam along with his buddies in a trench of some sort. Things were "relaxed" and his buddies decided to play poker at the far end of the trench. He was invited, but declined.

Shortly therafter, during the poker game, an enemy mortar landed and exploded right where his fellow soilders were playing poker, killing them all, and spraying body parts everywhere, including on the sole survivor.

When he returned to the States, for whatever reason he acquired 6 pet rats, and named each one the name of his fallen partner soilders.

-------------------------------

Sorry for the long story.

Anyway, the city Health Department attempted to remove the "pet" rats from his hotel room, and he went, literally, ballistic.
He did not fire or direct his weapon at any person, instead firing into the trees.

Local SWAT was called-in. They were made aware of his past, and determined that though he was firing bullets, that he was not trying to kill anyone, just trying to protect his fellow soilders(the rats) from removal.

They parked dump trucks completely surrounding the area of the motel that he could shoot out of. They shot a water-cannon through the window of his room, and SWAT gently apprehended the Vietnam Vet without firing a single police bullet.

He was not charged with anything, not even public endangerment.

Rather, the court remanded him to a psychiatric hospital here in my state where he remains to this day. The rats survived but were removed.

---------------

Anyway, I guess I'm just trying to give a real-life example of "survivor guilt", and how extraordinarily well the SWAT team was informed and responded.

Edited by pallidin, 04 July 2013 - 05:57 PM.


#14    pallidin

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 02:32 AM

And don't ask me why he had 6 rats instead of 6 cats or dogs. I have no idea

Yet just now thinking on this, I wonder(without knowledge) if all involved were part of a team that went into Vietnam tunnels. They were callled "tunnel rats"

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Tunnel_rat

Anyway, no matter, end of my story and back to the firemen.

Edited by pallidin, 05 July 2013 - 02:33 AM.


#15    pallidin

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Posted 05 July 2013 - 09:42 PM

The first half of this older, yet incredible song by the group ASIA seems pertinent to this. The second half may not, and might be construed as derogatory, so please exuse my inability to edit the tune...

And Mods... feel free to delete this post if the second half of the song is deemed too insensitive.



Edited by pallidin, 05 July 2013 - 09:52 PM.





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