Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 2 votes

Deaths of JFK Witnesses


  • Please log in to reply
79 replies to this topic

#16    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,323 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:49 AM

Those Bush boys did good covering their tracks .....

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#17    third_eye

third_eye

    _ M Ġ ń Ř Ī Ş_

  • Member
  • 8,713 posts
  • Joined:06 Nov 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Malaysia

  • "Legio nomen mihi est, quia multi sumus"

    God has no religion ~ Mahatma Gandhi

Posted 06 July 2013 - 11:37 AM

View PostSquidfish, on 06 July 2013 - 05:40 AM, said:

What about Garrison's main witness Perry Raymond Russo?

He was deemed unreliable as a witness as he changed his story one too many times ... and it was debated even how reliable he was actually in court -

Quote



On January 26, 1971, the day before he was expected to testify in Jim Garrison's defense in the civil suit, Clay L. Shaw v. Jim Garrison, Perry Raymond Russo approached a family member of one of Clay Shaw's attorneys and requested an opportunity to speak with Shaw's defense team. In the first of several meetings, most of which were tape-recorded, Perry Raymond Russo came clean. Here is the memorandum written from this first session.


<QUOTE ON>---------------------------

FROM THE FILES OF EDWARD F. WEGMANN

January 27, 1971

Perry Raymond Russo came to our office last night at 7:00 o'clock [sic] sharp by prearrangement.

link to the above memo


One of the many articles regarding the question of his character :



Quote

CONVERSATIONS WITH PERRY
by William Matson Law

"Perry Russo is a unique character because of his individuality.
I don't think the man would lie if you put
burning irons on his hands.
He's one of the most remarkable young men I have known."

- Jim Garrison


link

Or lack of :

Quote


Perry Raymond Russo Way Too Willing Witness

by Dave Reitzes
Perry Raymond Russo told, at the trial of Clay Shaw, of "Clem Bertrand" (Clay Shaw), "Leon Oswald" (Lee Oswald) and David Ferrie plotting to kill JFK at an "assassination party" in David Ferrie's apartment in September of 1963. With the exception of one Charles Spiesel (who was quickly revealed to be insane) Russo was the only witness to Clay Shaw conspiring to kill Kennedy. In other words, he was Garrison's entire case. But the story Russo told at the trial was only one of many versions of his story.

link


But here in his 'last testament' ?

Quote

THE LAST TESTAMENT OF PERRY RAYMOND RUSSO Introduction by Will Robinson

MC:

I understand that there's been a lot of things in the press that are untrue and misinformation about you that you feel very angry about that you would like to set straight.

PR:

OK: over the years the press, for whatever it's own reasons whether it was...it had it's own agenda, whether it was government sponsored, whether it was government leaked or whether these people who wrote these articles had various ways to get at Garrison and of course one way is of course to attack me and my credibility. Recently the 1968 article of Time Magazine listing me as a drug addict when I never even smoked marijuana did it serious damage to anybody believing that Perry Russo could possible speak anything about something factual because he was a known drug addict. 1970 US New and World report says that Perry Russo is a very dapper dresser. However, there's always a "however", However, he associates with a strange crew of wierdos and over the years has so done so. That's not libelous but you get into just a slanting of that particular article. Who would trust a person that hangs around with a strange assortment of wierdos. Then you have a Times Picayune which is a notorious champion here in New Orleans of anything that is anti-Garrison over the years. Time Picayune newspaper publishing company which publishes two newspapers comes out with an article on the twentieth anniversary of the Kennedy assassination saying that convicted burglar, Perry Raymond Russo, which I'm not a convicted burglar. They ...we go into court on that and they...we don't go into court but we go into discussions and they settle out of court with a retraction. Seventeen weeks later on the 55th page of something of the Sunday newspaper whereas the first statement came with my photograph and "convicted burglar statement right underneath it." So now over the years I have thought to be by myself and not read any of the articles or read any of the newspapers clippings when Oliver Stone contacted me asking me to sign on and do technical work. I thought that was satisfactory. I continue not to read the articles that were written even at that time. However there was one that was written in the January issue of Gentlemen's Quarterly and for this reason I have come to talk to you people who have asked for an interview. It's an opportunity to set the record straight. Nicholas Lehman wrote an article in GQ analyzing the movie which hadn't yet at this time come out. And so he wrote an article and in the article he savaged Garrison and savaged me. The article states that Stone's basing his movie upon Garrison who is basing his conspiracy theory upon testimony of Perry Raymond Russo, Baton Rouge insurance salesman cum grifter. That would seem like a very innocent remark except I looked up the definition and it means a convicted swindler. I have never had any convictions for anything except traffic. And yet this news outlet GQ thinks it can take a cheap shot. I didn't ask for the publicity. I have never asked for one interview ever, by anybody. I have not taken any money for interviews and GQ takes this cheap shot. A person reading this article in another area would read a grifter, isn't he a scam artist, isn't he a con man, isn't he a swindler or a dishonest.. yes that's what grifter means and GQ said it. Nicholas Lehman was deposed in this particular case which is in Federal Court now. Was deposed.. The essence of his deposition when asked why he would label Perry Russo a grifter was ...his answer was that he was hired...he did not want to label him as he had been historically labeled as Baton Rouse insurance man. He wanted to give a different twist, a different light upon that person. And he was hired to savage the movie. And he said that's exactly what he did in the article and he had no regrets about it whatsoever. He savaged it and the best route to savage it was to savage Garrison and to savage Garrison's witnesses.


link

bolded mine ...


Quote

Perry Russo Dies


Perry Raymond Russo (14 May 1941 – 16 August 1995) , a key witness in the Clay Shaw conspiracy trial of the late 1960s, has died in New Orleans at the age of 52.
According to the New Orleans coroner's office, his body was found in his home by a friend on August 16th. A spokesman said it appeared Russo had been dead for about 24 hours.
The cause of death was not immediately made public, although there have been reports he suffered from a heart ailment.

RIP

link


~

~

third_eye ' s cavern ~ bring own beer

~


#18    Vincennes

Vincennes

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,437 posts
  • Joined:12 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM

I'm just looking through this forum for the first time.  There is one thing that I don't see any mention of and that is the bullet in Gov. Connelly.  I clearly remember during the assassination investigations that it was stated there was a bullet in Connelly that could not be removed for some reason, it was too close to spine, artery, something like that.  That when they were able to recover that bullet that it would lend further confirmation of or against the Magic bullet theory.  However, when Connelly did die, I didn't see any mention of that bullet.    Does anyone have anything on that ?


#19    Rafterman

Rafterman

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,086 posts
  • Joined:27 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate

Posted 06 July 2013 - 12:48 PM

Fear not brave conspiracists - McAdams shall set you free!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm

Oh, and the 455 quadrillion majillion number is complete bumpkus and was corrected by the newspaper in the later edition that day.

"For me, it is better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark

#20    Kowalski

Kowalski

    The Original Penguin Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • 4,102 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:* Madgascar *

  • It's All Some Kind Of Wacked Out Conspiracy....

Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:45 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 06 July 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

I'm just looking through this forum for the first time.  There is one thing that I don't see any mention of and that is the bullet in Gov. Connelly.  I clearly remember during the assassination investigations that it was stated there was a bullet in Connelly that could not be removed for some reason, it was too close to spine, artery, something like that.  That when they were able to recover that bullet that it would lend further confirmation of or against the Magic bullet theory.  However, when Connelly did die, I didn't see any mention of that bullet. Does anyone have anything on that ?

Wow, I never heard that before! Here's what I was able to find:

Quote


But what I want to show you today is when Governor Connally was wounded, something that has never been shown correctly on any of the documentaries or in any of the books that I’ve reviewed. You see, experts such as Dr. Wecht have been arguing about what did nothappen. Instead, let’s show you what actually did happen.
To do that, I think the best place to start is with the last shot.
To briefly familiarize you with the Zapruder Film frame numbers, Z frame number 313 will be called Z313. The following are a few major frame numbers for familiarization.
Z=133 We first see the Limo in the film
Z=160 Some theorize the first shot from the Texas School Book Depository, we see Gov. Connally’s head movement to the right shortly afterwards
Z=220 We first see President Kennedy emerge from behind the sign, clutching his throat and obviously wounded
Z=223 Governor Connally reacts to his first wound
Z=220 to Z=324 Governor Connally turns to look over his shoulder toward what he thinks are gunshots
Z=313 We see the fatal shot to President Kennedy
Z=325 Governor Connally is hit in the back and driven forward
With the film speed of 18.3 frames/second, things happened quickly, too quick for 1960’s technology and the lack of accurate information they had to extract the truth. What we can see now in individual frames captured and edited was not possible even a few years ago when everything was analogue. And of course, nobody looked at Governor Connally closely after JFK's head shot at Z=313. Most everyone was sure all the serious action was over.
To those of you who remember the basic scenarios of the Warren Commission and the other numerous theories, the descriptions shown above concerning Connally’s wounds are new. And as I’ll show you, it isn’t a theory, it’s the only times Governor Connally could have been wounded in the eight seconds from the first shot until the last was fired.
With literally thousands of books and hour after hour of documentaries on what must surely be the most investigated murder in history, at this time let’s concentrate on Governor Connally’s wounds. Once you understand the only way possible that Governor Connally could have been wounded based on the facts we have, then not only can we understand how both men were wounded, it will once and for all reveal how the Guilty Men pulled this off.
The first question concerns the last shot shown above at Z=325. The Warren Commission concluded the last shot was the fatal head shot at Z=313 but was faced with testimony such as one of the best witnesses, Secret Service agent Roy Kellerman who sat in the Limo directly in front of Governor Connally. During his Warren Commission testimony, Kellerman spoke of the ending of the shooting as a “flurry” of shots. When pressed for how many, he said two. He described the spacing of the last two shots as bang-bang. When Arlen Specter pressed him again, he said it was like an airplane breaking the sound barrier (the front of the plane breaks the sound barrier before the rear of the plane, hence you hear bang-bang also).
When Arlen Specter asked the spacing between the first shot and the flurry of shots, Kellerman said three to five seconds.
When we look at the Zapruder film, we see at Z=325 the collapse forward and downward movement of Connally’s head. Looking at the sequence in real time, we see Connally driven quickly forward with his head snapping forward when he is shot. Further confirmation is given when you look at the analysis of the Dallas Police Recording. The difference between the Z=313 shot and the last shot is 0.7 seconds or approximately 12 frames.


Link: http://www.freerepub...t/1725590/posts

Edited by Kowalski, 06 July 2013 - 01:45 PM.


#21    Rafterman

Rafterman

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 7,086 posts
  • Joined:27 Sep 2010
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Upstate

Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:58 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 06 July 2013 - 10:49 AM, said:

Those Bush boys did good covering their tracks .....

Br Cornelius

Yawn.

"For me, it is better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark

#22    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,323 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:06 PM

View PostRafterman, on 06 July 2013 - 01:58 PM, said:

Yawn.
Strong case Rafterman for motive and been on the ground on the day. Strong strong case.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#23    Kowalski

Kowalski

    The Original Penguin Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • 4,102 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:* Madgascar *

  • It's All Some Kind Of Wacked Out Conspiracy....

Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:12 PM

View PostRafterman, on 06 July 2013 - 12:48 PM, said:

Fear not brave conspiracists - McAdams shall set you free!

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/deaths.htm

Oh, and the 455 quadrillion majillion number is complete bumpkus and was corrected by the newspaper in the later edition that day.

Well, according to this: http://richardcharni...-times-actuary/

Quote

HSCA statistical expert Jacqueline Hess testified that the actuarial calculation was "invalid" due to the "impossibility" of defining the "universe" of material witnesses. Her dismissal of the odds was a ruse (like the Magic Bullet Theory) to maintain the cover-up. The fact is that there was a definable set of 552 Warren Commission witnesses, of whom at least 19 died unnaturally in the period from 1964-1977. Only four would normally be expected. The 552 is a subset of the approximately 1400 JFK-related witnesses named in the reference "Who's Who in the JFK Assassination".

Among the 552 Warren Commission witnesses, the probability of at least 20 UNNATURAL deaths and 1 attempted murder is 1 in 236 MILLION. Omitting suspicious deaths, the probability of 6 homicides, 2 suicides and 7 accidents is virtually ZERO: 1 in 19 MILLION.

But the two "suicides" and seven "accidents" were very likely homicides. The probability that 15 of the 552 witnesses would be murdered is 1 in 131 THOUSAND TRILLION, closely matching the actuary's calculation.



Quote

In her list of 21 names, Hess conveniently left out scores of mysterious, unnatural deaths. Hess focused on five names in the list where the deaths appeared to have been natural (heart attacks). But they were still suspicious.

For example, Thomas Howard was one of three people who met in Ruby's apartment on Nov. 24, 1963. All died within a little over a year (two unnaturally). Hess never calculated the odds of that.

She did not include David Ferrie and Eladio del Valle. Ferrie supposedly died of an aneurysm within days of being called as a witness by Garrison. Ferrie was held in protective custody until Feb. 21, 1967. He was found dead in his apartment the next day. Ferrie associate Eladio del Valle was also sought by Garrison. He was murdered on Feb. 21. Hess never calculated those odds, either.

What is even more unbelievable, Hess neglected the strange deaths of nearly a dozen prospective HSCA witnesses. She gave a convoluted excuse as to why she did not include George De Morenschildt, Oswald's friend who allegedly shot himself with a rifle the day he was notified by HSCA. Nor did she mention the seven (7) high level FBI officials who died within a six-month period in 1977 just before they were due to testify at HSCA. She obviously never calculated the probability. Apparently, HSCA-related deaths were immaterial; she limited her analysis to 1964-1967.

Hess claimed the actuary concluded that on 11/22/63 the odds of 15 witnesses being dead was 1 in 10 to the 29th power which is 1 in 10,000 TRILLION TRILLION. That is obviously an incorrect statement. The actuary calculated the odds as 1 in 100,000 trillion (1 in 10 to the 17th power). He presumably used the Poisson probability function of rare events - the perfect mathematical tool for the problem (see below). One in 100,000 trillion is E-17, or 0.0000000000000001. Hess appears to have been anything but a "statistical expert". If she was one, she would have done the calculations herself.

There were approximately 1400 JFK-related witnesses. In 1964-1977, at least 70 died unnaturally (homicide, suicide, accidental, unknown) and 34 deaths were suspiciously timed heart attacks, cancers, etc. Normally 11 unnatural deaths would be expected.

Cause........rate; expected; actual; prob
suicide....... 0.000107; 2.1; 7; 1 in 170
homicide.... 0.000062; 1.2; 40; 1 in 1 BILLION TRILLION TRILLION TRILLION
accidental.. 0.000359; 7.0; 23; 1 in 2.3 MILLION
unknown... 0.000014; 0.3; 5; 1 in 5 THOUSAND

TOTAL UNNATURAL..0.000542; 10.6; 70; 1 in 700 MILLION TRILLION TRILLION

Assuming 1400 JFK-related witnesses and using the mortality rates above, the probability of at least
- 15 UNNATURAL deaths within ONE year of the assassination: 1 in 167 TRILLION.
- 33 UNNATURAL deaths within THREE years: less than 1 in 100 TRILLION TRILLION.
- 70 UNNATURAL deaths from 1964-77: 1 in 700 MILLION TRILLION TRILLION.
- 40 HOMICIDES from 1964-77: 1 in a BILLION TRILLION TRILLION TRILLION.

552 Warren Commission witnesses
The probability of at least 20 UNNATURAL deaths and 1 attempted murder in the 1964-77 period is 1 in 236 MILLION.

If the two "suicides" and seven "accidents" were actually HOMICIDES (very likely), then the probability of 15 HOMICIDES within 14 years is 1 in 131,000 TRILLION, quite close to the actuary's calculation.

The probability of 10 HOMICIDES in the three years following the assassination is 1 in 31,000 TRILLION.

The Poisson probability function is:
P(n) = a^n * exp(-a)/n!
where a = the expected number of unnatural deaths = R*N*T

In a random group of 1400 individuals, ONE unnatural death is expected in any given year:
a = 0.7588 = R*N*T = 0.000542*1400*1

Using the expected number (a=.7588) of unnatural deaths and the actual number (n= 15) in the Poisson formula, the probability that there would be EXACTLY 15 unnatural deaths is
P (15) = 0.7588^15 * exp(-0.7588)/15!
P (15) = 5.70E-15 = 1 in 175 trillion

The probability of AT LEAST 15 unnatural deaths is of course slightly higher: P (>14) = 1 in 167 trillion!
The spreadsheet formula is P (>14) = 1- Poisson(14,1400*0.000542*1, true)




#24    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,323 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:28 PM

Don't want to derail this, but this is the most telling smile in history;



Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#25    Kowalski

Kowalski

    The Original Penguin Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • 4,102 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:* Madgascar *

  • It's All Some Kind Of Wacked Out Conspiracy....

Posted 06 July 2013 - 04:37 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 06 July 2013 - 02:28 PM, said:

Don't want to derail this, but this is the most telling smile in history;



Br Cornelius

No, your not derailing the thread. Thanks for posting this! :tu:

I think Bush, Sr. Can't remember where he was the day of the assassination....
:rolls eyes:


#26    Vincennes

Vincennes

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,437 posts
  • Joined:12 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:10 PM

View PostKowalski, on 06 July 2013 - 01:45 PM, said:

Wow, I never heard that before! Here's what I was able to find:


Link: http://www.freerepub...t/1725590/posts

Thanks for looking for that.  Being old as dirt, I clearly remember there was a tie to the timing of the shots and a bullet they couldn't remove.  I'll go looking myself to see if I can come up with anything else.  The point in question was that they had the bullets that hit Kennedy, the one in Connelly would have pretty well set aside the question that there was another gun involved.  Funny one of the times that stick with you.  I remember I where I was even driving the last time I heard mention of it and that was a radio discussion early 90's.  That was after Warren Commission and all of the other investigations that went on.  Why was it still being discussed then and nothing, not one mention when Connelly died???   First thought that came to me when I heard he had dies was, "well now they'll finally get the bullet"  then nothing.  Not even a , "Well they thought at one time the bullet was important but then that was dismissed..... Not even that.  Not a word, not a peep LOL


#27    Vincennes

Vincennes

    Psychic Spy

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,437 posts
  • Joined:12 Nov 2012
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:USA

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:31 PM

http://www.nytimes.c...-fragments.html

I did come up with this.  I knew they discussed a bullet left In Connally.  Now, why on earth would they be getting permission to exhume the body.  No one remembered something was there when they buried him except me ?


#28    Kowalski

Kowalski

    The Original Penguin Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • 4,102 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:* Madgascar *

  • It's All Some Kind Of Wacked Out Conspiracy....

Posted 06 July 2013 - 05:45 PM

View PostDuncansmom, on 06 July 2013 - 05:31 PM, said:

http://www.nytimes.c...-fragments.html

I did come up with this.  I knew they discussed a bullet left In Connally.  Now, why on earth would they be getting permission to exhume the body.  No one remembered something was there when they buried him except me ?

Thanks for finding that! :tu:


#29    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,323 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:04 PM

View PostKowalski, on 06 July 2013 - 04:37 PM, said:

No, your not derailing the thread. Thanks for posting this! :tu:

I think Bush, Sr. Can't remember where he was the day of the assassination....
:rolls eyes:
Indeed he can't, but there's a photo which suggests he was outside the book repositiory.

Here it is
Posted Image


At this stage I will do everything I can to draw attention to the probability that Bush Snr was the CIA agent who commissioned the assassination of JFK - since the Bush murderers are still very much a force to be reconned with in American politics.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 06 July 2013 - 06:14 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#30    Kowalski

Kowalski

    The Original Penguin Conspiracy Theorist

  • Member
  • 4,102 posts
  • Joined:14 Mar 2013
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:* Madgascar *

  • It's All Some Kind Of Wacked Out Conspiracy....

Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:15 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 06 July 2013 - 06:04 PM, said:

Indeed he can't, but there's a photo which suggests he was outside the book repositiory.

Br Cornelius

Here's the website for the photos:

http://www.tomflocco...JfkBookDepo.htm





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users