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Russia’s Space Program Is Ineffective

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#1    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:10 AM

Russia’s Space Program Is Ineffective – Audit Chamber


RIA Novosti said:

MOSCOW, July 4 (RIA Novosti) – Russia’s Federal Space Program is ineffective, largely due to poor management of space activities and budget funds allocated for space projects, the Audit Chamber said Thursday.

The absence of a comprehensive management system in regard to space programs, projects, contracts and expenses under the Federal Space Program for 2006-2015 made this program highly ineffective, despite the increase in budget spending for space exploration by 2.5 times in the past three years, the Audit Chamber said in a statement.

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"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#2    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 06:38 AM

Well, at least they have a manned spacecraft, even if it may be 40 years old or more. Thanks to the current President, America doesn't even have one any more. i still think we'd be much better off letting Russia (or indeed China) take a lead, rather than waiting for America to take an interest once again.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#3    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:12 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 06 July 2013 - 06:38 AM, said:

Thanks to the current President, America doesn't even have one any more.
It was Bush that grounded the Shuttle, not Obama.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#4    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:42 AM

View PostWaspie_Dwarf, on 06 July 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

It was Bush that grounded the Shuttle, not Obama.
yes, but it was Mr. O that cancelled any future manned project, wasn't it. The shuttles were due for grounding anyway, they were clapped out death traps. i can't blame GW for that.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#5    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 10:49 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 06 July 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:


yes, but it was Mr. O that cancelled any future manned project, wasn't it.
No. You haven't been keeping up have you?

Constellation was cancelled but Orion is still being built, as is the Commercial Crew Program.

In fact the gap in America's manned capacity is likely to have been reduced (as long as Congress doesn't further cut the budget) by switching to Commercial BEFORE Orion.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#6    Zeta Reticulum

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 07:40 AM

View PostWaspie_Dwarf, on 06 July 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

It was Bush that grounded the Shuttle, not Obama.
Then why didn't Obama reinstate it ? Would seem he could do this ... if Bush could dismantle it.


#7    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 09:24 AM

View PostZeta Reticulum, on 07 July 2013 - 07:40 AM, said:

Then why didn't Obama reinstate it ? Would seem he could do this ... if Bush could dismantle it.

Because production of the external tanks had already ceased. Once they were all used then no more shuttle flights were possible.

Besides NASA did not have enough funding to continue flying the shuttle AND to start Orion and the Commercial Crew Program.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#8    Junior Chubb

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Posted 08 July 2013 - 08:56 PM

Ahhh, bless them. I was never a fan really.


#9    shrooma

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:27 AM

to be fair, i'd only say that russia's space programme was ineffective in the same way dettol is ineffective.
i mean, sure, they're only killing 99% of germs stone dead, so to speak, but they're still doing better than most countries are, and deserve SOME credit at least!
at least they're showing commitment towards spaceflight, and there can't be that many countries who've INCREASED their space budget 3rs on the trot....?
good luck to 'em i reckon!

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#10    Waspie_Dwarf

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 12:22 AM

View Postshrooma, on 09 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

to be fair, i'd only say that russia's space programme was ineffective in the same way dettol is ineffective.
i mean, sure, they're only killing 99% of germs stone dead, so to speak, but they're still doing better than most countries are, and deserve SOME credit at least!
That is a poor analogy. It is more like discovering that your disinfectant, which used to kill 99% of germs, now frequently fails to kill any at all.

View Postshrooma, on 09 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

at least they're showing commitment towards spaceflight, and there can't be that many countries who've INCREASED their space budget 3rs on the trot....?
Commitment does not mean effectiveness.

If you increase the budget you expect to get an improvement, that is not the case. The Russian space industry is suffering a bit of a crisis at the moment.

The failure of the Proton-M launch vehicle on the 2nd July was the 4th failure of this vehicle since December 2010 (with a further launch suffering a premature engine shut down and being classified as a partial failure). If this was a cutting edge experimental vehicle such loses might be considered acceptable, but it isn't. It is a rocket that has been in service since 1965 and was once considered to be one of the most reliable launch vehicles in the world.

The fact that the Proton was so successful for so long means that we can virtual discount major design problems. We must, almost certainly, be looking in a decline in the standard of production. Declining quality at a time of increasing budget, that is not an indication of an effective programme.

with Europe's Arianespace currently dominating the commercial satellite launch market and China and SpaceX beginning to take a slice of the pie, Russia can ill afford to miss out.

Then there is the once mighty Russian tradition of planetary exploration. At a time when Europe, China, Japan and India as well as the USA have all sent probes to either the Moon or other solar system objects, the Russian have not had a successful planetary mission since the Vega 1 and 2 missions to Venus and comet Halley, and they were launched in 1984. Since then the Soviet Union/Russia has attempted 4 missions to Mars. All have failed.

I believe that the lack of funding for non-manned exploration in the final years of the Soviet Union/ early years of the Russian Federation has come back to haunt them. Roscosmos was starved of cash. Now the cash is beginning to flow again, but recovery is slow.

View Postshrooma, on 09 July 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

good luck to 'em i reckon!
I agree with that sentiment.

I believe the Russian space programme will recover. Now that NASA is having huge success with its Mars rovers people have forgotten how much in disarray US planetary exploration was a little while back. Between 1993 and 1999 3 of NASA's 5 Mars missions were lost.

In 1993 the Mars Observer was lost just 3 days before it was due to enter Mars orbit, probably as a result of a fuel line rupture.
In 1999 the Mars Climate Orbiter crashed into the Martian surface instead of entering orbit due to a mix up between metric and imperial units.
Also in 1999 the Mars Polar Lander. This is believed to have been the result of inadequate testing of hardware leading to the vehicle mistakenly cutting poser to the engine when it was still 40m above the ground.

In the 1990's NASA's Mars exploration nearly became a laughing stock, but NASA regrouped. I believe Roscosmos will rise again too.

"Space is big. Really big. You just won't believe how vastly, hugely, mind-boggingly big it is. I mean, you may think it's a long way down the street to the chemist, but that's just peanuts to space." - The Hitch-Hikers Guide to the Galaxy - Douglas Adams 1952 - 2001

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#11    shrooma

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 02:59 AM

the american failures at mars is where the term 'phantom menace' originated from.
now, if they could just build a 'jar-jar' probe and lose it somewhere.....

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#12    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostWaspie_Dwarf, on 10 July 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

That is a poor analogy. It is more like discovering that your disinfectant, which used to kill 99% of germs, now frequently fails to kill any at all.


Commitment does not mean effectiveness.

If you increase the budget you expect to get an improvement, that is not the case. The Russian space industry is suffering a bit of a crisis at the moment.

The failure of the Proton-M launch vehicle on the 2nd July was the 4th failure of this vehicle since December 2010 (with a further launch suffering a premature engine shut down and being classified as a partial failure). If this was a cutting edge experimental vehicle such loses might be considered acceptable, but it isn't. It is a rocket that has been in service since 1965 and was once considered to be one of the most reliable launch vehicles in the world.

The fact that the Proton was so successful for so long means that we can virtual discount major design problems. We must, almost certainly, be looking in a decline in the standard of production. Declining quality at a time of increasing budget, that is not an indication of an effective programme.

with Europe's Arianespace currently dominating the commercial satellite launch market and China and SpaceX beginning to take a slice of the pie, Russia can ill afford to miss out.

Then there is the once mighty Russian tradition of planetary exploration. At a time when Europe, China, Japan and India as well as the USA have all sent probes to either the Moon or other solar system objects, the Russian have not had a successful planetary mission since the Vega 1 and 2 missions to Venus and comet Halley, and they were launched in 1984. Since then the Soviet Union/Russia has attempted 4 missions to Mars. All have failed.

I believe that the lack of funding for non-manned exploration in the final years of the Soviet Union/ early years of the Russian Federation has come back to haunt them. Roscosmos was starved of cash. Now the cash is beginning to flow again, but recovery is slow.



the legacy of those great heroes of the West, Gorby & Yeltsin, yet again, I suppose.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#13    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:38 AM

View PostWaspie_Dwarf, on 10 July 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

I believe that the lack of funding for non-manned exploration in the final years of the Soviet Union/ early years of the Russian Federation has come back to haunt them.
Well, of course. During the moron Yeltsin's time, pensions were not paid and all manner of horrors happening, so money for rockets was not such a priority. I think people do not fully understand the difficulties and chaos faced in the 90s. I think that to have continued at the present level is a miracle. Now, if 1991 was simply a bad nightmare, then it is probable that Buran would still be flying, but we will never know, and it is now beyond rescue....


#14    Tutankhaten-pasheri

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:49 AM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 12 July 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:

the legacy of those great heroes of the West, Gorby & Yeltsin, yet again, I suppose.
Yes, complete morons both of them. I have no doubt than within five years or so, Gorbachev will be dead and there will be sickening and fauning coverage of this in Western media. West cheered when "White House" was shelled by tanks of Kantemirovskaya Division, yet they should have cheered the guys inside. Alexander Rutskoi I am thinking of. Yes I know, there would have been even more chaos if the "putsch" succeeded, but nothing is simple in this, nothing as it seems, nothing.






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