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We become what we hate


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#1    markdohle

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 01:35 PM

I keep being told that if only people were more educated, or read more, or were just more intelligent, and then religion would fade away.  Of course none of the above is true.  The more educated a person is the deeper their faith will be if they do in fact do all of the above.

I believe that the adage:  ''we become what we hate" is easily shown in anyone who is bombastic about the beliefs of others.  Be it from atheist or believers of whatever flavor.  

Perhaps it is a human need to come out on top, to try to see oneself as superior to others and more intelligent.  In real life, people are people.  The atheist I know, well the ones who are not angry in you face sorts, or no more intelligent or knowledgeable than anyone else, they are just people who try to get through the day and along the way to try to make sense of life.  The others seem to be working through something from their past….I really don’t know….they are very difficult to talk to and that only makes them more angry.  

I live with doubt, the deeper I study, the more I experience my relationship with the transcendent, the deeper my 'unknowing' becomes, which makes me want to dive deeper in, not to swim towards the shallow certainty of atheism.....of course by shallow, well that is just my own opinion of most atheist I have talked to, at least when it comes to religion who are of the village atheist sort, the other side of the coin for the Westboro Baptist crowd....in other areas, well of course not.  True atheist; those who have no doubt about their stance, like those in the 'new atheist movement' come across as narrow, bigoted and do not get much coverage outside their own choir.  I do however like Sam Harris, he can come up with some pretty interesting things, mostly I guess because of his tendency to like and study Buddhism…..Which I like and study as well.  Buddhism will have a profound influence on the world as time goes on.  I am a Christian, and I have learned from Buddhist thought, for they have studied the mind much longer than we in the West have done and we have much to learn from them.

I don't believe that atheism is a dead end in our culture.  However the militant aspect of the movement I feel will only hurt them in the long run.  I do feel that atheist should be able to have their own public displays, post their thoughts on billboards etc.  When it is done with contempt however, it shows a lack of understanding human nature.  Contempt is the normal human way to deal with others outside of ones group....it hasn't worked in the past....I doubt it will work today....well except perhaps to raise the blood pressure of those who feel compelled to rain down their wrath and contempt on others who don't agree with them....this goes for everyone, atheist are just another group trying to find their place in the world as a group within our culture, I hope they find it.


Of course I have my own limitations in understanding the athiest point of view, so there are pitfalls I can easily fall into as well, for sterotyping is also another human trait that is not always helpful in seeking deeper understanding and communication.

Edited by markdohle, 06 July 2013 - 01:37 PM.


#2    Beany

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:24 PM

The older I get & the more reading I do, the more I learn, the greater my doubts around religion. Doubt has become a state of mind I've learned to be comfortable with. I have very deep faith in spirit, though, but no longer feel the need to define it or create structure around it, or organize it. I think it's a fallacy, though, that people who study & read, etc. will deepen their faith. Some will, some won't, which makes them neither right nor wrong. There are a lot of ignorant, unsophisticated people, i.e. Westboro church, who appear to have very firm faith while rejecting any concepts or thinking or ideas that lie outside of their understanding of what it means to be Christian. It's my understanding that what makes one truly Christian is not what one believes or says, but whether one lives and practices the basic Christian tenets set forth in the ten commandments, and by the life modeled by Jesus. Not being Christian, though, I could be wrong about this.


#3    markdohle

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:32 PM

View PostBeany, on 06 July 2013 - 02:24 PM, said:

The older I get & the more reading I do, the more I learn, the greater my doubts around religion. Doubt has become a state of mind I've learned to be comfortable with. I have very deep faith in spirit, though, but no longer feel the need to define it or create structure around it, or organize it. I think it's a fallacy, though, that people who study & read, etc. will deepen their faith. Some will, some won't, which makes them neither right nor wrong. There are a lot of ignorant, unsophisticated people, i.e. Westboro church, who appear to have very firm faith while rejecting any concepts or thinking or ideas that lie outside of their understanding of what it means to be Christian. It's my understanding that what makes one truly Christian is not what one believes or says, but whether one lives and practices the basic Christian tenets set forth in the ten commandments, and by the life modeled by Jesus. Not being Christian, though, I could be wrong about this.

Jesus said that those who do the will of God, are his mother, brother and sisters.  I think as we mature, we may identify with a religion and our ties may get deeper, but seem weaker to others.  That is because we learn to trust ourselves more, without feeling the need to leave, for there is still a strong connection, for me it is with Christ Jesus, so I believe that community is imortant and the struggles that go with it an important part of my own inner growth.  Of course my friend, my faith, my background etc., are different from yours.  I think you are a true seeker after truth, and I love hearing from you.

peace
Mark


#4    Zaphod222

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:43 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 06 July 2013 - 01:35 PM, said:

I keep being told that if only people were more educated, or read more, or were just more intelligent, and then religion would fade away.  Of course none of the above is true.  The more educated a person is the deeper their faith will be if they do in fact do all of the above.

I believe that the adage:  ''we become what we hate" is easily shown in anyone who is bombastic about the beliefs of others.  Be it from atheist or believers of whatever flavor.  


Define "bombastic". Is questioning an irrational belief "bombastic"? Why? In a free society, every belief should be questioned. That is what intelligent discourse is about. Or did you mean something else?

If you want to to make criticism of certain beliefs taboo, you are stepping on a very slippery slope.

----
"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

Edited by Zaphod222, 06 July 2013 - 02:43 PM.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

#5    markdohle

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:49 PM

View PostZaphod222, on 06 July 2013 - 02:43 PM, said:

Define "bombastic". Is questioning an irrational belief "bombastic"? Why? In a free society, every belief should be questioned. That is what intelligent discourse is about. Or did you mean something else?

If you want to to make criticism of certain beliefs taboo, you are stepping on a very slippery slope.

----
"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." (Salman Rushdie)

I believe everyone has the right to blast other belief systems, it just does little good.

peace
mark


#6    Bionihil

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 02:55 PM

From my experience, atheists have a little more background knowledge and theists have more pleasures in life ^_^


#7    markdohle

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:06 PM

View PostBionihil, on 06 July 2013 - 02:55 PM, said:

From my experience, atheists have a little more background knowledge and theists have more pleasures in life


I think in the United Stated because atheism is a minority view, though growing, at least as far as the press is concerned.  It is important for them to be able to defend what they believe, so yes, many of them study in order to do that to the credit of some, forthey do a good job of it.  Others, they take the easy way out and use contempt towards 'faith-heads'.  In countries where atheism is perhaps more accepted and there are more of them, I doubt that will be true, because the need will not be there.  There is nothing to defend or rant against.

Actually the 'new atheist' movement has done a good deed.  It is forcing Christians to dig deeper and to study their faith, and it is helpful I believe.  Not in the sense of converting anyone, but that they have a deeper understanding of their faith.  Those who write about in because of what the New Atheist publish, help to deepen the faith of those who read them, as well as give them the language to perhaps answer back attacks by atheist.  As our cultural changes and the Christian faith becomes more of a sub group, no matter how large, it will no longer be a cultural faith.  So study, seek to understand ones faith, or most likely lose it.....or join Westboro Baptist and become a screamer.

peace
mark


Edited by markdohle, 06 July 2013 - 03:07 PM.


#8    Bionihil

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:13 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 06 July 2013 - 03:06 PM, said:



I think in the United Stated because atheism is a minority view, though growing, at least as far as the press is concerned.  It is important for them to be able to defend what they believe, so yes, many of them study in order to do that to the credit of some, forthey do a good job of it.  Others, they take the easy way out and use contempt towards 'faith-heads'.  In countries where atheism is perhaps more accepted and there are more of them, I doubt that will be true, because the need will not be there.  There is nothing to defend or rant against.

Actually the 'new atheist' movement has done a good deed.  It is forcing Christians to dig deeper and to study their faith, and it is helpful I believe.  Not in the sense of converting anyone, but that they have a deeper understanding of their faith.  Those who write about in because of what the New Atheist publish, help to deepen the faith of those who read them, as well as give them the language to perhaps answer back attacks by atheist.  As our cultural changes and the Christian faith becomes more of a sub group, no matter how large, it will no longer be a cultural faith.  So study, seek to understand ones faith, or most likely lose it.....or join Westboro Baptist and become a screamer.

peace
mark


I think you're overspeculating hehe


#9    markdohle

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Posted 06 July 2013 - 03:15 PM

View PostBionihil, on 06 July 2013 - 03:13 PM, said:

I think you're overspeculating hehe

I have been told that before :yes:

Peace
mark


#10    Beany

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 12:23 AM

those Westboro folks don't make Christianity look bad, they make being human look bad. What is it Mark Twain said? No one ever lost a fortune by underestimating the taste of the American public. The only good thing about Westboro is now we all know what the lowest common denominator looks like.


#11    markdohle

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 12:28 PM

View PostBeany, on 07 July 2013 - 12:23 AM, said:

those Westboro folks don't make Christianity look bad, they make being human look bad. What is it Mark Twain said? No one ever lost a fortune by underestimating the taste of the American public. The only good thing about Westboro is now we all know what the lowest common denominator looks like.

:yes: :nw: :clap: :tsu:


#12    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 10:45 PM

I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.



It's not working!

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

You may think you're cool, but you'll never be as cool as Peter Capaldi with an electric guitar, on a tank, playing the Doctor Who theme.

#13    markdohle

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Posted 07 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 07 July 2013 - 10:45 PM, said:

I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.
I hate skinny people with lots of money.



It's not working!

That is because you don't hate enough, try harder!!!!!  Not sure envy is hate in any case :no: :whistle:

peace
mark





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