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Did Jesus Die for our sins?

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#16    SpiritWriter

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 03:54 PM

View Postredhen, on 10 July 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:



I agree, this seems to be a common form of appeasing the gods in many ancient religions, but by no means all of them; Buddhism and Jainism come to mind.




I agree again, the story of The Fall is another common concept in many religions, the proverbial separation of humanity with the rest of nature, perhaps it was an ancient attempt at explaining self-awareness.



Indeed, that is why on many Christian alters you will see engraved images of a sacrificial lamb, Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi.

I still don't understand how the ritual slaughter of a lamb can make oneself holy.

I dont think it makes you holy but it makes you clean. It is up to you to maintain your cleansliness which is as holy as anyone could try for I think. Clean because the animal died in exchange for you, plus is seen as an appeasment.

Edited by SpiritWriter, 10 July 2013 - 03:55 PM.

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#17    Knight Of Shadows

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:48 PM

personally i believe jesus  never died
but i could argue if jesus died to grant people salvation
would that be fair ?
so all bad and good people alike would be awarded heaven by accepting the fact that jesus died on cross for their sins
so would murderers and all the criminals also sin-free if they believed in jesus as their salvation ?

basically then it doesn't matter if you're good or bad
you'd be treated on same level as sinners mentioned above
or am i wrong ?

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#18    redhen

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:31 PM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 10 July 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

It is up to you to maintain your cleansliness which is as holy as anyone could try for I think.

That sounds reasonable.


Quote

Clean because the animal died in exchange for you, plus is seen as an appeasment.

So once again we come down to scapegoats, literally, and appeasing angry gods.


#19    redhen

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:35 PM

View PostKnight Of Shadows, on 10 July 2013 - 05:48 PM, said:

but i could argue if jesus died to grant people salvation
would that be fair ?

if the idea of vicarious salvation sounds appealing.

Quote

so all bad and good people alike would be awarded heaven by accepting the fact that jesus died on cross for their sins
so would murderers and all the criminals also sin-free if they believed in jesus as their salvation ?

basically then it doesn't matter if you're good or bad
you'd be treated on same level as sinners mentioned above
or am i wrong ?

It depends on which Christian denomination you are talking about, some require baptism, confirmation and confession along with believing the creed. Other churches are less demanding.


#20    Allterspace

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:30 AM

I want to thank all of you who have tried to clear this up for me. What I get from all this is, Jesus's death was a sacrifice or payment to appease God to forgive us for the sins humanity has made in the past. Baptism is remove the sins that we made as babies up to the time of baptism. "Original sin" is hereditary or born into you because of the sinfull actions of our ansestors in the past.

I'm not trying to be funny or sarcastic, I hope I'm not just plain clueless but to a regular person it just seems way to complicated. Maybe it just because I live a very striaght forward life I have trouble with this reasoning. I do beleave more and more people in the world today are using the act of going to church every sunday as a free pass to sin and do wrong throughout the rest of the week (Southern Baptist).

What I have learned from this is :

1. There is many different religious beliefs which contradict one another.
2. Each religion's Bible or Holy Book is an "interpetation" of that religions belief of mankind's creation and basic morals and values.
3. Because every religions Holy Book is a revision or translation of original text, Its hard to say wether one book has been translated better than anothers.
4. Maybe the best way to find truth is to take all of the translations from each religion and compare them to each other and look for simularities.

Or the last final option or lession would be, do unto others, as I would want done to me. And in the end just have faith I have done right in my lifetime.

Thanks again for all of you who have helped me out.


#21    Hugh

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 05:53 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 10 July 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

I dont think it makes you holy but it makes you clean. It is up to you to maintain your cleansliness which is as holy as anyone could try for I think. Clean because the animal died in exchange for you, plus is seen as an appeasment.

The idea that killing an innocent animal somehow cleans oneself, and appeases God is pretty barbaric and idiotic in my opinion...


#22    woopypooky

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:29 AM

he died for the fame


#23    d e v i c e

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 10:52 AM

I'm not a Christian so I don't know the Christian way of looking at it but I always thought that 'dying for our sins' just meant that he died after spending his whole [short] life, striving to get people to rise above their 'sinful ways.' Something along those lines. You know, his whole life was about sin and the eradication of sin - for the benefit of all human beings - and he knew he was risking his life for this aim, I assume. And he died for it. I mean, that's a massive sacrifice in anyone's book. Dying for our sins.




#24    DeWitz

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:56 AM

View PostSpiritWriter, on 10 July 2013 - 03:08 PM, said:

I believe it is possible as I have never killed an animal. I cant really say I personally have a problem with this I think it was evolitionary for man kind as this practice was not exclusive to the OT. Now that I am a pagan I have recognized the humams inclination for ceremony and I think that is how all religion started, as a natural desire to commune, be of favor to, gain power from the spiritual realms and divine presence. It is my understanding that the animals were also eaten so it is my assumption the rulers of the time mandat ed this practice so the could have feasts after thier ceremony. Yes they were probably geedy but it was two fold and still servicing the common man as he was involved in the ceremony and cleansing/blessing process. Which still happens today at the alter of churches all across the world. I am not saying all church leaders are greedy with that statement im just saying it happens. I am witness to the fact that god does still bless dispite the intentions of the leaders.

Do I ascribe to the doctrine of original sin? What is it? Um I wouldn't particularly say I ascribe to it, I think it is a metaphorical condition of the seperation of man from god...  I do ascribe to being joined back to god. I cannot say the true source of any one persons seperation or if in fact they were truly ever seperated but the definatly is a mental sepetation from man and god and I do believe in the teconection to god and for the most part I have seen this through a person accepting christ. I think this is powerful and has everything to do with the story of his sacrifice. Even though we may not still be familiar with the blood sacrifice it is still part of our primal memory or instincts or understanding and so the reason the name of Jesus is such a powerful name. So it really doesn't matter what I believe or think we are talking about the history of the christian religion and the current and ongoing belief of the function of the blood of jesus.

Yes. The scapegoat/blood sacrifice mythos is exactly that which Rene Girard (google-able) has written a post-modern refutation over recent decades. Essentially, his view is that Jesus' sacrifice was the sacrifice to end all sacrifice (it's arguable whether or not he makes his case).

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:24 PM

View Postwoopypooky, on 11 July 2013 - 10:29 AM, said:

he died for the fame

And power.

Thomas Paine wrote in The Age of Reason that “Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous execution, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God."
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#26    SpiritWriter

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 02:39 PM

View PostAllterspace, on 11 July 2013 - 02:30 AM, said:


4. Maybe the best way to find truth is to take all of the translations from each religion and compare them to each other and look for simularities.


I think that this IS a good thing to do.. I think the different ideas will help you come to a conclusion of some sort, but it will still be refuted by others who are strong in their position about what is true and accurate. There are many books that seem to be impartial in comparing and contrasting belief systems. Where they overlap and shate the same concepts are the areas that I tend to believe. I believe that it all a representation ofans understanding of god but that god must speak or portray his mystery in parables because we cannot make the truest sence out of it. I believe it is all about the condition of our mind and the freeness of our spirit experience an inward and outward expression of God.  More than comparing all the literature that has ever been written, which is contradictory, confusing and can cause psychologocal fatigue, the best way to find YOUR truth is through prayer and meditation. Many texts will point you to this, I believe true communion with god is the ultimate desire of man and he cannot get there by trying to figure everything out or needing to be exactly right about everything first. The quickest route is by being still and embracing the presence of god.

The letter kills but The Spirit gives life. 2 Corinthians 3:6

Non-ambiguity and non-contradiction are one sided and thus unsuited to express the incomprehensible. -Jung

#27    desert palm tree

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:29 PM

Theory without practice, knowledge without work is 'sin'. This sin kill Jesus. How ? He had many students . Thousands ? Hundreds ? How much left? Twelve.  From these twelves , who understand him ? None. Who prayed with him , not to enter to temptation, in the garden of Getesemane all that last hour ? None. This Rabii, all  his teaching without fruit ? All his effort to nothing ? This makes him , 'sinner' , and this sin killed him on the cross.


#28    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:22 AM

No his not. There is no "our" sins. He didnt die.

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#29    Zaphod222

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:59 AM

View PostAllterspace, on 10 July 2013 - 01:35 AM, said:

Like I said before I do not own a Bible, I just have a serious question that I do not understand the meaning of. If its too hard for a person to explian it to me in "Lame-man-terms" Than the answer must be too tough for most people to understand. I feel its a legitimate question and if your answer is to read the Bible, thanks anyways your not a true follower or teacher.

Afaic, the concept about Jesus dying for "our" sins is a particularly bizarre dogma in Christian theology. It is so crazy on so many levels, I would really like to ask anybody who takes it seriously: Are you for real?

Edited by Zaphod222, 26 July 2013 - 07:59 AM.

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#30    GoSC

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:11 PM

View PostHugh, on 11 July 2013 - 05:53 AM, said:

The idea that killing an innocent animal somehow cleans oneself, and appeases God is pretty barbaric and idiotic in my opinion...

It is called substitionary death. Sin basically demands death. Both physical and spiritual.

Animal sacrifice is shadow of Jesus' death on the cross. Well, it wouldn't be right to demand the death of a human for our own sins and given the fact no one is perfect enough to qualify for anyone else's substitionary death. Exception being the Son of God.

So when animal was sacrificed under the Old Covenant, basically the idea was one can lay all of their sins upon this animal and while it bears their sin, the animal will substitute its death for their death so in order that their life and repentant heart will be renewed for another year. The animal bore their sins and died their death (both physical and spiritual) in order that theymay live. If there is no substitionary death offered for sin, then with physical death bears the brunt of spiritual death."

Bottom line: sin = imminent phyisical and spiritual death , substitutionary sacrifice = life

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).





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