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North America mystery


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#1    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:41 AM

Why Ansazi, Mimbres, Mogollons built civilization and socety in such hostile environment?

Do we have ANY anaologies with Anasazi? I say No. But I would like to hear your view.

Thanks in advance.

L.

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#2    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:12 AM

is it possible that when they built their hanitstions, the areas weren't as inhospitable?
After all, in Roman times Northern Africa was call a breadbasket rather thrn a barren wastelnd.

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#3    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:16 AM

In 1970 that was rejected. There were no forest in Chaco Canyon ever. They imported wood or go to cut it. 80 km distance.
North africa is different. You have plenty water where civilization emrged and live later. Or around oasis.
They didnt emrged around Colorado river.


Like they wanted to hide from someone. To use nature as protection. :alien:

To live there you must have special ability. In real sense.

Edited by the L, 09 July 2013 - 10:22 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#4    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 11:57 AM

Right analogy would be that Luxor is in middle of Saqqara.

Edited by the L, 09 July 2013 - 11:58 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#5    jaylemurph

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:29 PM

View Postthe L, on 09 July 2013 - 10:16 AM, said:

In 1970 that was rejected. There were no forest in Chaco Canyon ever. They imported wood or go to cut it. 80 km distance.
North africa is different. You have plenty water where civilization emrged and live later. Or around oasis.
They didnt emrged around Colorado river.


Like they wanted to hide from someone. To use nature as protection. :alien:

To live there you must have special ability. In real sense.

If they wanted to remain inconspicous, building a city in the middle of desolation is an odd way to go about it.

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#6    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 07:35 PM

View Postjaylemurph, on 09 July 2013 - 07:29 PM, said:

If they wanted to remain inconspicous, building a city in the middle of desolation is an odd way to go about it.

--Jaylemurph

Thats true. But there is no logic explaination. For what Anasazi did we dont have analogy in history.
When we look on societis trough history on material evidence we look on those evidence based on our models. Models that we know. From today. Or etnographic past. No one say that in history there were not other types of organizations. Different type of society with which we cant compare.

Edited by the L, 09 July 2013 - 07:35 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#7    DieChecker

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 09:38 PM

I thought that the ancestors of the Anasazi were forced out of better areas by competing neighbor tribes.

They were forced to be assimilated, or go extinct, or flee. And they chose to flee into a barren wasteland. The way their dwellings were built suggests fortification, possibly against the ancestorial enemies who they doubtless told oral stories about for many generations.

Wasn't there also a canniblistic element to the Anasazi? Perhaps the cannibalism is what caused the neighboring tribes to go to war and chase them away?

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#8    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:20 PM

View Postthe L, on 09 July 2013 - 07:35 PM, said:

For what Anasazi did we dont have analogy in history.
What about what Akenaten did? Moving everything out to the middle of the desert (IIRC on the "evil" side of the Nile to boot).
I've got to agree, they wanted to hide from someone - or something. Plague perhaps? Aren't most Anasazi conurbations built into rockfaces etc? I don't want to go all AA on people, but they could have been trying to hide from someone who had the power of flight...

I must not fear. Fear is the Mind-Killer. It is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear.
I will permit it to pass over me and to move through me. And when it is gone I will turn the inner eye to see it's path.
When the fear is gone, there will be nothing.
Only I will remain.

#9    Pax Unum

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Posted 09 July 2013 - 10:25 PM

View PostDieChecker, on 09 July 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

I thought that the ancestors of the Anasazi were forced out of better areas by competing neighbor tribes.

They were forced to be assimilated, or go extinct, or flee. And they chose to flee into a barren wasteland. The way their dwellings were built suggests fortification, possibly against the ancestorial enemies who they doubtless told oral stories about for many generations.

Wasn't there also a canniblistic element to the Anasazi? Perhaps the cannibalism is what caused the neighboring tribes to go to war and chase them away?

IIRC the Anasazi were the ancestors of the Hopi, they abandoned their cities and moved to better locations because of a prolonged drought... The cannibalism appears to have been for survival, it didn't begin until the drought and the locations where evidence was found were abandoned soon after it occurred...

Hopi_people
Anasazi Cannibalism?

Edited to add link

Edited by Pax Unum, 09 July 2013 - 10:31 PM.


#10    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:21 AM

In 1849 Simpson expedition discovered Chetro Ketl in American south west in Chaco canyon. Chero Ketl  was built in 1020s. It takes three years that Pueblos raised this site. It have around 500 rooms. It was abandoned in the mid 1100s. Around the same time as Pueblo Bonito. And many others such as Pueblo del Arroyo which was founded between 1050 and 1075 and Pueblo Alto which was founded between 1020 and 1050 AD. They move probably to sites as Kin kletso which was erected between 1125 AD and 1130. Anyway Chero Ketl shows Toltec influence. It was raised about same time as site in Tula and Chichen Itza (900-1200). Its kind a mystery why this people left their homes. Was it drought ot civil war, although many Anasazi sites dont show signs of violence such as Chero Ketl. Chetro Ketl had almost no human remains at all. Pueblo on Spanish means city with 1000 people. We dont know about hierarchy or their organization. Were they religious community?Pueblo lived short times. They raised corns. Hohokams have had rivers. Anasazi didnt have rivers. They collected rainfalls. It was a fragile ecosystem. New technique of building came between 700 to 1200 AD. Big blocks of bricks dried on sun from clay, 20 x40 cm dimensions and 10 to 15 cm thick. They built walls. Cities. Even buildings with five floors. Every fall would be reentrant in previous floor. Between floors you could climb with ladders. We have four periods of Anasazi.750 BC-900 AD  Anasazi lived in houses which were distant one from another. Communities with 100 people. They have had Kiva. We think that Kiva was ceromonial room. They raised corn.900 AD-1500 AD civilization emerged in Chaco canyon in New Mexico. They have cities connected with roads. Those were not roads as we know them. They didnt follow terrain and simplest direction. They were long even 100 km. Those roads would go foward and at some point you would have turning in 90 degrees, climb over hills, stairs carved in mountain. It was a web of roads. When we look on societis trough history on material evidence we look on those evidence based on our models. Models that we know. From today. Or etnographic past. No one say that in history there were other types of organizations. Different type of society with which we cant compare. We dont have real analogies for Pueblo. Biggest house in Chaco Canyon was big realy big. It has 600 rooms. In Pueblo Bonito. It contains 200 000 wooden beams 5m long and with radius of 20 cm. It was huge city and great organization.Around 1140 building suddenly stop. One need to ask himself why such hostile enviroment was chosen for such huge work? Four corners, Arizona, Colorado, New mexico , Utah is hostile enviroment.  Till 1970 it was thought that Chaco was green oasis which have been invated agricultarists. And that they ruined canyon. But in Chaco were never forests. 1150-1300 Mesa Verde in Colorado with 400 rooms. 1300-1400s Spainyards came. Cahokia (600-1400 AD) around Mississipi river in st. Louis, Missouri. 15 000 people live there. We found traces of copper, jewels,trade, sacrifice people and burried them with chieftians, society elite. In Anasazi we found cannibalism traces. In Pueblo bonito 1100 cca. We have wall of rooms which closed what was once backyard. Chaco lasts several centuries but peak lasted 100 years. Chaco probably relocate because of drought. In 13 century in Pueblo third perios we have traces of violence. Near Mesa Verde. From Mesa Verde they moved to New Mexico where they live till today. Zuni, Hopi welcomed Spainyards and Angloamericans. As Jared Diamond said they built tallest buildings in North America till steel Chicago towers in 1880s. Chaco collapsed in 12 century, Mesa verde around 1400, Mogollons and Hohokam till 15 century. In Chaco canyon dendrochronology helped us a lot. Ansazi collected water in ditches. Mogolllons lived on higher ground where was more rainfalls but too cold for agriculture. Mogollons built canals for  valleys with 100 km long canals, 19 meters deep and 5 meters wide. Big rainfalls knew to destroy dams and canals. Mimbres were based on agriculture on land with decent level of subterrain water suplies. All those cultures rised and then drought came and they collapsed. When population was low they would simply relocate. But when population number was high they didnt have where to leave. In Chaco canyon they done agriculture on different locations. From 600-1150 flourished. One again have to wonder why they raised city in desert where only rare plants succec which is imune to salt. In Pueblo Bonito in 920 we have two floor buildings and in next 200 years even six floor buildings for 600 persons. Roof from wood with 5,3 meters. Canyon Chaco have low height above see level with subterrain water supplies. They have Juniper tree from near woods. They raised Pumpkin and Corn , beans and pine nuts which contains 75% proteins. They went 80 km for pine fir spruce. They imported pottery,turquoise stone and corn from 80 km distant areas. It was a mini empire for elite and villagers who worked. Last building from Pueblo Bonito last from 1110.Last wooden beam was in 1117 and in Chaco 1170. There is sign of cannibalism. But so as in Leningrad during WW2. There was big drought in 1130. And in 1090. 1150-1200 Chaco was abandoned. In 1800 Navajo settle in area with their sheeps. They gave them name anasazi. People from past. We know that salt earth hurts Hohokam but what hurt Anasazi people we dont know.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#11    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:23 AM

I always loved letter (speech)of  Indian Chief Seattle from 1854.When I was a little I was stunned by Apache, Navajo, Seminole natives. I played with Cowboys and Indian miniatures and my favourite characther was my fiction native called Nacho the Tophat. Dont ask me where I get that name. Anyway I always loved Indians and somehow hated white settlers. I didnt know why but as I grow I found out that my „hatred“ was kind of credible. After Spainyards destroyed Inca and Aztec they thought that in North America also exist civilization with a lots of gold and that they will be conquered easily. They made mistake. Neither in north America was civilization full of gold neither resistance would be piece of cake. In fact north America have had more famous natives then south and central America have had. To name a few:
Washakie - Pinaquanah ("Smells of Sugar"),leader of Shoshones, Po'pay  leader of Pueblo Revolt against Spanish colonial rule in 1680, or Shoshone woman Sacagawea, who was guide of  Lewis and Clark Expedition in their exploration of the Western United States. She traveled from North Dakota to the Pacific Ocean between 1804 and 1806. Lakota leader Crazy Horse, famous Apache Geronimo,Sitting Bull, Wampanoag indian  Squanto who was selled to Spain as slave and later help first settlers to survive, Chief Joseph from Oregon,leader of Nez Perce,famous for  1900 km fighting retreat by the Nez Perce in 1877 became known as the Nez Perce War(beside with Red Echo, Bald head,Looking glass,Poker Joe) , Ten Bears, Red Cloud ,Lakota Sioux,who are one of most dangerous enemy of US army because he wons in  1866–1868 over control of the Powder River Country in northeastern Wyoming and southern Montana. Antonga or Black Hawk, Ute leader who led rebellio angainst white men and gained alliances with Paiute and Navajo. Chief Pontiac, Ottawa leader, who was famous for Pontiac's Rebellion (1763–1766) against the British for  Great Lakes region following the British victory in the French and Indian War. Tecumseh, leader of the Shawnee, allied with British against Americans. Quanah Parker. Apache Cochise and others apache such as Santos, Chatto, Apache kid.



When white people came they called them Sioux but they called them selves Dakota (allies). Lakota were most famous in their resistance to white men. Treaty from 1851 decide where Dakota(Shoshones,Cheyenes, Arapaho) will live, west of river Mississipi. Treaty of Laramy would need to secure Natives food. 15.8.1862. Dakota indians searching for food came in Indian agency where administrator respond to them that they can eat grass. Next day Dakota attacked agency and leave that administrator with grass in his mouth. 400 white men, mostly from Scandinavia and Germany died that day. It was called Dakota uprising and it was lead by Little Crow.
White men wanted to built railway over Dakotas favourite hunting ground, famous Bozeman Trail , route connecting the gold rush territory of Montana to the Oregon. 1865 Red Cloud chiftain of Oglala lead 1000 Dakotas into rebellion. US goverment admit  their defeat and stoped construction of railway.
Treaty of Laramy in 1868 gave Dakotas land west of Missouri river. In year 1870 gold was discovered in Black mountains in south Dakota. Dakotas were enough of white men. Tension rose. Then US army attacked one peacefull Indian village and they didnt won but attack was consider by Dakotas as announcement of war.
1876 Sioux and Cheyenees were listinig shaman called Sitting Bull. He talked about his dream in which they won over whitemen. In June 1876 US army sent army under General Terry. He was marching aside river Yellowstone. His plan was to caught in trap Indians in delta of river Little Big Horn. From another side 7th cavalry division under George Armstron Custer were marching. Besides his famous role in battle of Gettysburg and his hunt for Robert E.Lee he was famous for raiding Cheyennes village under chiftain Black Kettle in 1868 . 24th June 1876 scout reported to Custer  that there are so many Dakotas that 7th cavalry could fight them three days. Custer respond that then they will need to finish with them in one day. Next day Custer died. Indian attack was led by Crazy horse. Custer divided his troops into three division against 1000 indians. Custer soldiers must dismount their horses and fight. Every fourth soldier must stayed with horses so that also reduced fire power of US army. Indians tried to kill those who held horses and to made them panic. 200 soldiers including Custer were killed.That victory didnt do much on long run. Till the end of 19 century all Indians were in resrvoirs. Christopher Columbus 1492 came to America with three ships. Spainyards easily destroyed Incas and Aztecs. But north America would not see Pizzaro or Cortes like figure. White men on north need more time but executions were done thoroughly. North America vast land stoped white settlers for a while plus warlike Native such as Apache or Dakotas.

Humans came to America circa 20 000 BC as Out of Africa theory say. As predators they stoped in Alaska. They were followinf big wild animals. In Australia they came 40 000 BC over Sundaland. By that time Borneo was part of Asia, Australia and New Guinea was one land.( Somehow people constructed ship and sailed 400 km over Pacific. Its real mystery what was the motivation of those people. Or isnt? As many suggests)Islands of Polynesia were not inhabbited till 3000 BC. North America was under ice. Whole Canda, from Pacific to Atlantic Ocean. Ice sheets were melted around 11 000 BC and before that time we have traces in North America (12500 BC) all the way to Chile. Either they sail aside with coast or they went trough two glaciers, trough ice desert. Some scientists argued that humans in America dont live longer then 800 generations, 16 000 BC. What is also stunning that humans were extremly fast spread over America. In southwestern Pennsylvania site called Meadowcroft is 14 500-22 000 BC, Monte Verde in Chile is 33 000- 15 500 BC. People of Monte Verde ate plants and Mastodons. In one structure they found traces of 18 medicinal plants. Some plants are taken from 700 km distance. About that time we have ginat wolves and giant sloths. Cactus Hill site in Virgina dates from 19 700 BC. So its unlikely that people came from Europe, Solutrean hypothesis, or by Atlantic or Pacific Ocean but question is raised how people came so early in America. Clovis culture ,called because founded stone spears found in Clovis Mexico, isnt first. Often we hear how white settlers were ruthless and kill dozens of Buffalos (they did) and that Natives live in harmony with nature. That they hunt as they need. Native americans from 11500 9500 BC were different. We found many so called „Kills sites“. Were we can clearly see that they didnt touch many animals they killed. All whats left of America Megafauna were Buffalos. Natives would canalized them into swamp or over cliff or in canyon so they could become easy prey for spear armed natives. In 9600 BC little ice age has ended (from 13 000 BC) and in 50 years temperature rose for 7 celsius degree. Holocene started. Rise of sea level started. Tasmania become separted from Australia, Britanny from Europe,Asia and America were separated in 8500 BC,Sundaland (big as two India) loose half of land, Sumatra was divided from Malaysia in 6500 BC. Continents got they form around 5000 BC. Forest was spread. Pine tree and birch, oak and beech start spreading north, Saqqara became full of little lakes with savannahs. In 9000 BC in central saqqara came people which have diet strongly based on fish.
But where civilization started in North America?
Indians as we know them like Comanches were 18/19 century community. Buffalo hunters.  Those were not first natives.
Natives of north America were agriculture based people not just hunter gatherers. Around Mississipi they raised pumpkins, sorrel,sunflowers.  Watson Brake is site in Louisiana, with circlement of mounds in radius of 280 meters. Eleven mounds with evidences of using  fishs, deers,nuts,turkey and shells in their diet. Poverty Point dates from 1700-1200 BC,have 6 half circle mounds with biggest radius of 1,2 km. No agriculture but civilization started. In south Arizona, Las Capas we have irrigation system from 1400 BC. In Arizona Hohokam culture raised cotton and corn. West part of Arizona way dry and southwest was under influence of Mesoamerica. They developed 300 BC around today shadow river Gila. Beside Hohokam there are Anasazi and Mogollons. Hohokam culture have had settlements with 1000 people. Imagine, when  Jesus walk on Earth in Arizona we have had cities.
Before Colombus in north America lived 20 millions natives. Smallpox, measles, influenza, typhoid, difteria, malaria, mumps, tuberculosis, yellow fever, whooping cough, plaque almost deleted them. What germs didnt do, guns, horses and steel would try. But Natives in North America resist longer then white settlers thought they would. Contact Europe with america by Vikings didnt change anything because Europe technologicly and in organization was not ready for colonization. Ponce de Leon in 1513 was in search for Elixir of youth. It was after Inca and Aztecs. Then came Alvarez de Pineda (1519- delta of Mississipi), De vaca, Hernando de Sotto (1539-1543) from Florida to Mississipi, saw Cahokia which was deleted by pandemics. It was said that population in Cahokia was biggest till 1780s when Philadelphia population grew over 40 000. The city original name is unknown. We dont even know who built it. Scinetists say that environmental factors, over-hunting and deforestation cause collapse. Climate change could have effects of erosion due to deforestation, and cultivation of maize, on which the community depended. Or illnesses. Waste disposal were problem to Cahokia. They traded from North lakes to Gulf coast.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#12    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:25 AM

Now we can see how hostile area to European was even more friendly terrain then those of Anasazi.

In 27.6.1527. five boats sailed with 600 sailors. Captain was Panfilo de Narvaez. King of Spain Carlos I gace him title Guvernour and promision to conquer south coast of North America. One of that ship was Alvar Nunez Cabeza de Vaca. (Cabeza de Vaca means Cows head) His ancestor helped Christhian army against Maurs. He signed way with Cow head toward secret plain passage. In April 1528, on big Thursday they set up their foot on Tampa Bay. They found abandon village. In one house 300 persons could live. There Spainyards find golden rattle. They raised flag. They thought conquering would be easy. In the end De Vaca was one of four who stay alive when expedition came to Mexico in 1536. From Tampa Bay ,Apalachee bay to Galveston. De Vaca on way met natives who told them about province Apalachee bay which is full of gold. Guvernour led people and everyone got bacon and bread. It was a hostile enviroment. They were lacking food suplies. In Apalanchee they didnt found gold. Spainyards on way fought with natives. They ate all horses. 40 peopledied from diseases. They made raft and shirts were their sail. Drinking water was held in quiver of dead horse leg. Quiver start to rotten. When they came to Mississipi they were desperate. They eat hand of corn each day. Till the end of 1528 only 66 people stay alive. De Vaca describes natives who doesnt carry any loads. That was a job of their women. Women keeps  fire at night while men sleeps. They are liars and thieves. They chase deer from morning till night. They chase their prey untill prey become tired. They capture deer alive. They move every 2 or 3 months. De Vaca walk and sail from Florida to north Mexico in 8 years. De Vaca end up in Africa.  Narváez expedition was origin of legend about 7 cities of Cibola.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#13    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:26 AM

Do we know all about America past?

What do we know about America Stonehenge, stone structures near Salem, New Hampshire in the northeast United States.? It is pre Columbian. And…Why Stonehenge is special and not Brazilian stonehenge in Amazon in the state of Amapa, in the far north of Brazil? It also show sophisticated knowledge of astronomy. How come when Amazon dont have advance civilization. This observatory have 127 of large stones, in tones messured. Same as in carnac case we dont now what was real purpose of it. Was it use for agriculture? For crop cycles. For phases of moon? Scientists argue that was erected to point when sun is lowest in the sky ,winter solstice. Who erected those? Maybe same people who erected Stonehenge?


In 1819, Cherokee George Gist aka Sequoyah completed work on the Cherokee syllabary, a written script in which each character represents a syllable. By 1825, most Cherokee had adopted the system. However Cherokee script was not first.  First was developed in North east Canada under wigwams of Micmac people.It was recorded in 17 century but many argued that was pre –Columbian.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#14    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:27 AM

Natives in North America wasn piece of cake. Just look Navajo. They fight Spainyards from 15 to 19 century.  They fight Americans in 19 century. Their raiding were as those by Mongols. Or look Apacheria. In 18 century Comanche created empire. Comancheria.On southern plains. In 1840s they attack Mexico and Texas and others Apaches. Who knows who would that end up that cholera and smallpox didnt cause collapse of Apacheria. Comanche started raid against Mexico in 1706 and continue to raid neighbours. They were powered by those raids. They built empire. Start to trade. Spread culture and language. But Apache didnt surender. They become guerilla.In 1849 Apache war begins and it lasted till surrender of Geronimo in 1886. Apache leaders such as Mangas Coloradas, Cochise , Victorio, Juh of the Nednhi band,Geronimo led raidings  against non-Apache. US forces went on search and destroy missions against the small bands, using tactics including solar signaling, wire telegraph, joint American and Mexican intelligence sharing, allied Indian scouts, and local quick reaction posse groups. In 1877 U.S. captured Geronimo and brought him to the San Carlos reservation from where he fled in Mexico. In 1881 he fled with 700 Apaches to Mexico once again. Then on April 19, 1882 Juh attack San Carlos and forced Loco to join him and they all left for Mexico. In 1883 General George Crook went to Mexico and made deal with Geronimo to go back to San Carlos. Juh stay but Geronimo came in 1884 but again fled in 1885. In 1886 Crook was replaced by Brigadier General Nelson Miles. Miles ordered 500 Apaches, 100 Navajos, militia and 5000 soldiers against Geronimo and his 24 apaches. In 1886 Geronimo surender to Miles. They held them at Fort Pickens in Florida. Some of the warriors and families were imprisoned at Fort Marion, also in Florida. Later Geronimo was sent to Fort Sill, Oklahoma.
Spirits of natives is amazing. Desert or swamps they fought. They were far greater warriors then Inca or Aztecs. Or any natives which Europeans met. They have letters, buildings, trading system, empires, codex, language, land, tradition, customs. Their history is equal to Revolution war,Civil war or Century of USA.  Look at 17 century Iroquois Confederacy on Lake Ontario, people of the longhouse, Mohawk, Oneida, Onondaga, Cayuga, Seneca (Tuscarora joined in 1722). Each tribe had one vote, and unanimity was required for decisions. They have court with jury  of 50 peace chiefs- sachems. Neighbouring Huron and Mohican who were supplied with guns through their trade with the Dutch. The Mohawk traded beaver pelts to the English and Dutch in exchange for firearms, and the resulting depletion of local beaver populations. In 1628 they won over Mohicans to gain a monopoly in the fur trade with the Dutch at Fort Orange, New Netherland. The Mohawk would not allow Canadian native people to trade with the Dutch. The Iroquois also came into conflict with the French in the later 17th century. The French were allies of their enemies, the Algonquins and Hurons, and after the Iroquois had destroyed the Huron confederacy in 1648–50, they launched devastating raids on New France for the next decade and a half. They were then temporarily checked by successive French expeditions against them in 1666 and 1687, but, after the latter attack, led by the marquis de Denonville, the Iroquois once again carried the fight into the heart of French territory, wiping out Lachine, near Montreal, in 1689. These wars were finally ended by a series of successful campaigns by New France’s governor, the comte de Frontenac, against the Iroquois in 1693–96.They have senate, courts, army, trade, houses. In 17th century  Iroquois were at the height of their power, with a population of about 12 000 people. They made deal with Brittish. In revolutionary war Tuscarora and Oneida sided with Americans, while the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga and Cayuga remained loyal to Britain. It was the first political split among the Six Nations. After war Captain Joseph Brant and a group of Iroquois left New York to settle in the Province of Quebec (present-day Ontario). As a reward for their loyalty to the British Crown, they were given a large land grant on the Grand River. In the 1830s many of the Onondaga, Oneida, Seneca, Cayuga, and Tuscarora relocated into the Indian Territory, the Province of Upper Canada and Wisconsin. Iroquois are a Mother Clan system, which is gender equal. If a leader does not prove sound or becomes corrupt or does not listen to the people, the Clan Mothers have the power to strip him of his leadership. Wife could divorced husband. Deganawida peacemaker was their prophet who as legend say united them. What they lack was administration. But they were on right course toward creation of state.

USA is founded because of smallpox, measles, influenza, typhoid, difteria, malaria, mumps, tuberculosis, yellow fever, whooping cough, plaque. If those didnt wipe out natives who knows what could happened? Unintentional biological warfare won battle before actually took place.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#15    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 05:29 AM

But why are Anasazi special.

Im fan of Bear Grylls. I recomand it to watch episode about Moab desert on Colorado Plateau.Most people there dying from heat stroke and dehydration.In the southwest corner of the Colorado Plateau lies the Grand Canyon of the Colorado River. Two rivers flow trough Moab. Colorado and Green. Priority there is shadow and water.Without knife, flint and water  you cant survive.Rescuers said that lost hikers are down in 12 hours and dead in 24.Snakes lurking.Natives used trumpetflower as straw to drink filthy water around canyons. Small cactus in desert grow toward South so you can orianted with it. Eggs from birds are treasures. Proteins and shells fulll of calcium. You break an egg on stone an its cooked. Thats temperature in Moab.You must leave points of your direction by stones or sticks if you wanted to be found. Like many natives, Mongols, africans you must have special ability to survive. If you dont know which cactus grow to south you are lost unless you have survival training. If you have wire you can magnetize your wire on hair create whole fill water in it and leaf and on it wire. Its compass.Moss is pointing north, thicker ice.In saqqara wind came from north east shaping dunes. But Anasazi didnt have wires, and there is no ice, moss or wind from Med.sea. In this area during Anasazi and Mogollons to go down hill or following rivers downstream you would not find civilization. That was a nature of Anasazi. They must have developed climbing tech. Climb with legs.Keep balance. Always three contact technique. In hot terrain its safer to travel at night if you conquer your fear and sense of isolation. You need 45 minutes to get night vision. On Ice terrain if you have bottle you put snow in it and you have water you do not eat snow. Here there is no liquid. Except urin. You can drink own pee. Urin is 95 % water but only drink when its fresh. In jungles you can create spear for fish or net from clothes and flexible stick. Here you must have nerve to put food in your mouth. Scorpions and snakes. Shelter and shadow are crucial. Fire for morale and cooking. When walking trough wood you must keep making a lot of noise to let know bear wolf you in wood. Do not surprise predators. Here everything is quite. You must check clothes for insects after sleep. In Saqqara Egyptian Cobra is deadly enemy. Horned viper another. They are snakes everybody knows. But here we also have deadly snakes. Quick sands near Colorado river-more you fight it more you pulls in. You must crawling.You can survive three weeks without food but without water you wont last three days. Thats what Bear repats all the time. Three days. Those people live here. 24-7. And built cities. When trained SAS soldier have problems to survive without right surviving skills you wouldnt last a day. And Anasazi lived here. Built 6 floor buildings.

Same with Seminoles. And Everglades. You must developed special ability to live there. One million of alligators. Flamingos are most beautifull thing you can see. Alligators feed at night. Home of Tekesta,Calusa beside Seminole.Easy to get lost. Cypress trees all the way. Swamps. Snakes.Rattle snakes. Hurricanes. Everglades is wide river and runs from north to south. You can use it for orientation, around stick tied rope and see where it would flow.Larva of ants are full of protein. They are life saver.Where is earth there are black bears. Seminole cooked turtles in shells. Who would like to live in it? Seminole. But they didnt built 6 floor buildings there. Thats why four corners is more interesting. Seminole were interesting about their resistance and astronomical myths. They argued about Milky Way.Breathmaker blew his breath toward the sky and created the Milky Way. This pathway in the night sky leads to the City of the West where the souls of good Indians go when they die. In the Seminole language, so-lo-pi he-ni means "spirit way" . Spirits never return to earth from the City in the Sky. Along the Milky Way lives Rain and Rainbow. The Seminole word for Rainbow means stop-the-rain, and that is what the Rainbow does when it appears.When the Sun is eclipsed, Seminoles say that frog has come along and taken a bite out of the Sun. Frog continues eating at the Sun until the Sun disappears. Seminole hunters shoot frogs whenever they see one, preventing eclipses of the Sun or Moon. Along the Milky Way is Big Dipper, which seems like a boat to the Seminoles. They say it is used to carry the souls of good Seminoles along the Milky Way to the City in the Sky. Its hard to grasp that in Everglades lived astronomers who were great fighters aswell. Seminole originate from Oklahoma  from Creek.  Seminole is a corruption word of cimarrón, a Spanish term for runaway. In 18 century Black Seminoles appears. Slaves run to Seminoles where they paid tribute to the Native Americans in exchange for protection. There is also a village of Black Seminoles who have lived at Red Bays on Andros Island in the Bahamas since the 1820. During the American Revolution, the British—who controlled Florida—recruited Seminoles to raid frontier settlements in Georgia. The confusion of war allowed more slaves to escape to Florida. The British promised slaves freedom for fighting with them. These events made the Seminoles enemies of the new United States. In 1783, as part of the treaty ending the Revolutionary War, Florida was returned to Spain. Improtant ceremony was Green Corn Dance,Creek origin aswell as black drink and ritual smoking of tobacco. They constructed open air thatched-roof houses known as chickees. During the American Civil War, the members and leaders split over their loyalties, with John Chupco refusing to sign a treaty with the Confederacy. The First Seminole War was from 1814 to 1819.Seminole leader Osceola was leader during Second Seminole War. He used guerilla warfare. Osceola was arrested when he came under a flag of truce to negotiations in 1837. The first battle of the war was known as the Dade Massacre. It occurred when Major Dade was leading a combined Army from Fort Brooke (Tampa) and Fort King (Ocala). In an attack by Osceola and his men, over a hundred soldiers were killed near what is now Bushnell.Other war chiefs, Halleck Tustenuggee and Jumper, and Black Seminoles Abraham and John Horse, continued the Seminole resistance against the army. After a full decade of fighting, the war ended in 1842. Scholars estimate the U.S. government spent about  40 000 000 dolars on the war, at the time a huge number. As a result, many Seminole were sent to reservations in the west.Second Seminole War  was from 1835 to 1842, and the Third Seminole War from 1855 to 1858. Seminole still lives in Everglades.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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