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Sorry, We're Not Living in Orwell's "1984"


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#61    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:09 PM

Prophesies of doom are characteristic of a decaying civilization.


#62    SolarPlexus

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 July 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

View PostPhaeton80, on 10 July 2013 - 10:58 AM, said:

Lets have a go then shall we?

- structural phasing out of individual nation's sovereignty;
- structural phasing in of collectivism, unionisation of homogenic states / zones;
- continuous centralisation of power, assets;
- continuous underminement of the 'family unit';
- invasive / illegal actions against people's / citizens privacy by the ruling body;
- further intwinement of corporation & state / union;
- continuous underminement of the rights & freedoms of the people / citizens in favor of 'security' (swapping freedom for security by way of fear);
- assasinations of citizens without any form of judicial trial and or hearing;
- rising application of 'newspeak';
- 'telescreens' in every room,all public and private places;
- 'peace through war';
- growing class segregation;
- ever growing taxation while governed by self enriching corrupt politicians;
- continuous movement towards world institutions, world currency, the globalisation mindset;
- etc etc.

Sheesh.  You ignored the word "unequivocal."   Your tests are as equivocal as a Delphic oracle. Some of them are even false.  Disqualified

BS. Things he speaks of are in plain sight for everyone to see. One must be robbed of sight...

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#63    Jeremiah65

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Prophesies of doom are characteristic of a decaying civilization.

Not really...

Some group....somewhere...all through time have been anticipating the end...from the people of Europe during the Dark Ages to the age of the plague to the Millerites in 19th century to the two world wars...many of the societies rose to prosperity afterward....not collapse...

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#64    SolarPlexus

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:13 PM

nevermind

Edited by SolarPlexus, 10 July 2013 - 01:57 PM.

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#65    DeWitz

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:31 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 10 July 2013 - 08:24 AM, said:

*our two-party system



The varying views of what this work of fiction meant, especially as put forth by you and questionmark, reveal exposure and thinking above the ordinary.

Those views are most interesting especially in their deviation from the overused cliche of proclaiming it was a prophetic work of mystical proportions (just as everyone can claim Nostradamus meant this or that regardless of the era they are in) or a cautionary tale.

It is as if now that society is turning away from religious texts they have a void to fill and do so through the canonization of others works of literature. It is near religious for some it seems.



Now, World, please give the Devil his/her due:  I refer to my first post (#14) in this thread, in which I noted the multi-referential nature of good fiction (including Orwell's), making universal points that can be applied to different places and times. Jeremiah made a similar statement (#23), as have others.

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#66    Phaeton80

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:39 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 July 2013 - 01:06 PM, said:

Sheesh.  You ignored the word "unequivocal."   Your tests are as equivocal as a Delphic oracle. Some of them are even false.  Disqualified

You seem to be very quick to label my points as 'equivocal as a Delphic oracle', yet bring nothing to to table to actually base your statement. Which makes it of a certain 'equivocal' quality, uncertain significance.

"Disqualified!"


#67    Frank Merton

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:42 PM

View PostPhaeton80, on 10 July 2013 - 01:39 PM, said:

You seem to be very quick to label my points as 'equivocal as a Delphic oracle', yet bring nothing to to table to actually base your statement. Which makes it of a certain 'equivocal' quality, uncertain significance.

"Disqualified!"
Why should I?.  You made the impossible claim.  One thing I might suggest; if you want to persuade, keep your claims within sensible bounds.


#68    ciriuslea

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 01:49 PM

I don't think it matters what the original theme was if the novel wasn't so apt to modern society then it wouldn't deserve the attention it gets, or has gotten, its one that should be moved from the science fiction section to non fiction.

The main themes of the book are Political Geography, War, Nationalism, Revolution, Censorship, Surveillance I personally feel the book picks up on communism due to it being one of the main fears of the time...war with Russia, but Orwell was in fact using the communist theme as a front, bash communism at a time when it was a national pastime seems to be a good idea if you want your work to be noticed, but whether intended or not his insights were visionary, much like how people are now thinking Enoch Powell's river of blood speech was, from racist to visionary in 50yrs.


#69    questionmark

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostFrank Merton, on 10 July 2013 - 01:09 PM, said:

Prophesies of doom are characteristic of a decaying civilization.

Not only, yes, there where people look too much at their dreams they turn like their shadows (to cite an old Khmer saying). It is also a tool to keep people in line, especially for the religious establishment.

Fear is the best tool dictator like establishments have to control people... and most are dumb enough to fall for it...time after time...

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#70    tapirmusic

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 07:16 PM

Let's end this thread appropriately:


"He gazed up at the enormous face. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden beneath the dark moustache. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two gin-scented tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Big Brother."


#71    Glorfindel

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:50 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 10 July 2013 - 03:28 AM, said:

The debate does not end. Regarding the level of security we require that debate is ongoing.

We are all involved in that nationally and those wishing to drop out of the debate are free to do so.

Unsure what role non-Americans have in the debate specifically over the role of the NSA but if anything it is a minor one.

The separate issue of legality and constitutionality will be decided by our courts, our American courts. Non-Americans have no say in that, at all, but they do have their own societies and systems of government to decide for themselves and how much if they will at all cooperate with us.

Where did I mention anything about the USA? Youre posting maps claiming we don't know that the world stretches beyond the USA and Canada, yet you make such an America-centric statement. We have rights in Canada too, so does most of the western world. My ancestors worked and fought for those rights, and we're not just gonna relinquish them. The NSA has been spying on more countries than just America, they have been spying on Canadians too and exchanging information with our filth government too. We do not consent to a foreign nation spying on us (or our own government). Yes, the debate very much does end where I previously stated it does. If you hate the rule of law and human rights, maybe you should move to a failed state like Somalia. I didn't realize civil liberties were limited to Americans.  Like once before, you discriminate and brush off arguments based on someone's national origins.

And as somebody already pointed out (as well as myself in our PMs), you base your world view off FEAR. Some of us would rather be scared, free and independent, as opposed to scared, enslaved and dependant on the corrupt lawless mafia that our governments have become.

Edited by Glorfindel, 10 July 2013 - 09:58 PM.


#72    Detective Mystery 2014

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:16 AM

View PostLikely Guy, on 10 July 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

I'm safe. I don't watch TV, own an iPad or laptop, nor a cellphone.

I'm the invisible man!

CCTV begs to differ. I assume that you drive. It seems like there are surveillance cameras on most main roads and streets. Orwell's home holds the world record for the number of them.

There is one reality with billions of versions.

#73    joc

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:48 AM

The IRS knows where you live...where you work...and now they will know about your Medical History.

But their is much more to the story: In 1984, you couldn't really trust anyone...ANYONE...even those you thought you could trust, you couldn't...and so, people turned a deaf, 'whatever' ear to everything.  Completely believed whatever anyone said...todays newspapers headlines were the exact opposite of yesterdays...didn't matter...the truth is of the moment.

In North East Texas we have watering restrictions.  If you water on the wrong day...someone will turn you in to the authorities...I kid you not!
It's like living in the Twilight Zone...people will call the authorities and tell on you for 'inappropriate watering behaviour'.
We are a spinning top which has lost it's centrifical force...it is only a matter of time until it all skids across the floor and crashes into the wall.
Hope to god you have some food somewhere to eat for a couple of months...or years.

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#74    The Silver Thong

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:54 AM

View PostDetective Mystery 2013, on 11 July 2013 - 03:16 AM, said:



CCTV begs to differ. I assume that you drive. It seems like there are surveillance cameras on most main roads and streets. Orwell's home holds the world record for the number of them.


Hence the 72 CCtv cameras on 911 of the pentagon confiscated with nothing on them but what they want you to see. 1 3 frame clip. CCTV does not save lives as proven however a phone cam is exposing police brutality that has exsisted for years. Hence a cop not liking this and not knowing its very legal to video them comiting a crime.

Edited by The Silver Thong, 11 July 2013 - 03:59 AM.

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#75    The Silver Thong

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:57 AM

View Postjoc, on 11 July 2013 - 03:48 AM, said:

The IRS knows where you live...where you work...and now they will know about your Medical History.

But their is much more to the story: In 1984, you couldn't really trust anyone...ANYONE...even those you thought you could trust, you couldn't...and so, people turned a deaf, 'whatever' ear to everything.  Completely believed whatever anyone said...todays newspapers headlines were the exact opposite of yesterdays...didn't matter...the truth is of the moment.

In North East Texas we have watering restrictions.  If you water on the wrong day...someone will turn you in to the authorities...I kid you not!
It's like living in the Twilight Zone...people will call the authorities and tell on you for 'inappropriate watering behaviour'.
We are a spinning top which has lost it's centrifical force...it is only a matter of time until it all skids across the floor and crashes into the wall.
Hope to god you have some food somewhere to eat for a couple of months...or years.

Its to the point never talk politics as we will be watching.  The US is on the verge of..........

Sittin back drinkin beer watchin the world take it's course.


The only thing god can't do is prove he exists ?




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