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Useless to argue


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#1    markdohle

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:31 PM

Useless

It is useless to argue over the value of other systems of belief. Those who hold them and seek to deepen their understanding of reality, will seek to defend their world view, for it is an extension of their very selves and their relationship with reality. If a person changes their belief system quickly, it is because it was never that deep to begin with. Many people I believe sell themselves short if they do not delve into their own faith history, to seek to understand what it means beyond the “going to temple and church, to be married, baptized or buried”.

A deeply understood faith path and the mature knowledge of its limitations can enrich life and fill it with deep meaning. Those who react to abuse from their past, never free themselves from the chains of the corruption of their family faith traditions, which can be deeply wounding and have an adverse affect on their lives. At the very least, to deeply understand the heart of any one religion, and to still desire to let it go, will be an easier more gentle process than holding on to anger and resentment for a lifetime.




#2    JMPD1

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 09:45 PM

Well said, friend.

That is why my favorite motto is:

If your religion brings you comfort and peace, then it is the right religion.  For you, but not necessarily for me.

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#3    krypter3

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Posted 10 July 2013 - 10:33 PM

I don't like to argue, I like to debate.  I find arguing distasteful because if you are actually arguing, you tend go past intelligent conversation.  And it usually ends in name calling and what not.


#4    redhen

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:53 AM

View Postkrypter3, on 10 July 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

I don't like to argue, I like to debate.  I find arguing distasteful because if you are actually arguing, you tend go past intelligent conversation.  And it usually ends in name calling and what not.

Actually, arguing or argumentation is the right word, perhaps you mean a dispute or quarrel.


#5    markdohle

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 12:39 PM

View PostJMPD1, on 10 July 2013 - 09:45 PM, said:

Well said, friend.

That is why my favorite motto is:

If your religion brings you comfort and peace, then it is the right religion.  For you, but not necessarily for me.

Well said, thank you.

peace
Mark


#6    GreenmansGod

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 12:04 AM

At what point do you say, what you doing isn't working and it is causing human rights issues.  How long are you suppose to stand there and say nothing. If some one is beating a child with a rod, how long are you going to just do nothing.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#7    markdohle

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:33 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 12 July 2013 - 12:04 AM, said:

At what point do you say, what you doing isn't working and it is causing human rights issues.  How long are you suppose to stand there and say nothing. If some one is beating a child with a rod, how long are you going to just do nothing.

You act as if only religious abuse their children, not true at all.  Any abuse needs to be faced up to and the child needs to be protected.
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Peace
Mark


#8    GreenmansGod

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:22 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 12 July 2013 - 10:33 PM, said:

You act as if only religious abuse their children, not true at all.  Any abuse needs to be faced up to and the child needs to be protected.
http://www.childhelp...ges/statistics/
Peace
Mark

I didn't say that at all, I guess it was a bad example.     But people get away with a lot of human rights issues under the guise  of religion.  Blasphemy laws, marriage discrimination, abuse of women and etc...  Where do you draw the line.  When does individual rights come before religion.

"The moment you declare a set of ideas to be immune from criticism, satire, derision, or contempt, freedom of thought becomes impossible." Salman Rushdie

#9    willowdreams

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:30 PM

i actually agree. I think every single human on earth has a right to their own spiritual belief and a right to move towards a  better understanding of it.

I believe it with every fiber of my being and i honestly believe that this right is worth dying for.

Having said that..  I also believe one more thing.

A persons religious belief/spiritual faith has no right to get in someone elses way.

It has no place in public education other then perhaps if it was a basis in some historical thing that is being taught, it has no right in public hospitals (you knwo the type I am talking bout), it has no right in politics/laws.

Once it goes into something like laws (since that is easier to grasp in what i am saying), and suddenly others are finding their rights or freedom of choices hampered because someone elses religious/spiritual beliefs helped pass something into a law (abortion.. or even low and behold.. human rights such as homosexuals being married and legally accepted), then there is a problem and it needs faught..

I honestly believe if someone hates something like abortion.. do not have one, if you hate homosexuals getting married, do not marry someone of your own sex.

If my daughter got pregnant, and wanted an abortion, it would upset me, but i would support her ight to one and see to it that she has one done under good medical conditions.

(Just an example)

anyways, yes freedom.. to pursue whatever spiritual path you wish.. discuss it.. pass it on.. but in the end.. that is all it should be, a personal choice for an individual within their own home/body.

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#10    markdohle

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 12:24 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 12 July 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

I didn't say that at all, I guess it was a bad example. But people get away with a lot of human rights issues under the guise  of religion.  Blasphemy laws, marriage discrimination, abuse of women and etc...  Where do you draw the line.  When does individual rights come before religion.

In the United Stated, there is actually seperation between religion and the government.  Here rights of the indivudual are formost, that is what a democratic republic is all about.   I do think however, that some restraint should be demanded of any and all who wish to talk about other groups, so much crap from both sided, it makes me sick.


peace
mark


#11    willowdreams

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 04:25 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 13 July 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

In the United Stated, there is actually seperation between religion and the government.  Here rights of the indivudual are formost, that is what a democratic republic is all about.   I do think however, that some restraint should be demanded of any and all who wish to talk about other groups, so much crap from both sided, it makes me sick.


peace
mark

i live in the united states and yes there is to be separation of religion and state.. but there is not :) it is lip service.

Otherwise we would not be having these human rights issues with homosexuality, nor.. would we have abortion issues. not like we have it now.

Religion plays a much bigger role in the United States Government then it should. It is better then most, I admit that, it is getting better, I will admit that too, but we are not truely a country where religion is separate from government.. and where religion does NOT get in the way of human rights and choices.

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#12    markdohle

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 02:33 PM

View Postwillowdreams, on 13 July 2013 - 04:25 PM, said:

i live in the united states and yes there is to be separation of religion and state.. but there is not :) it is lip service.

Otherwise we would not be having these human rights issues with homosexuality, nor.. would we have abortion issues. not like we have it now.

Religion plays a much bigger role in the United States Government then it should. It is better then most, I admit that, it is getting better, I will admit that too, but we are not truely a country where religion is separate from government.. and where religion does NOT get in the way of human rights and choices.

It is always something that needs to be fought over, it is the nature of any society.  At least we can do it here ;-).  It also depends from what side of the fence you are on my friend.  For believers, 'some' atheists intention of getting rid of any mention of God in public is looked upon as interferring with their rights to express their beliefs......so it is worked out in the public forum.  That goes for moral issues as well.  If something is legal, then people have the right, if it is moral or not, well that again is something that needs to be spoken out for the good of the community.  Then each makes up his or her mind.  It is when screaming, name calling and violence enter the picture that trouble starts.  I am pro life, but believe that if people want abortion to go away, or at least to be less than what it is today, then change has to come from the bottom up, not from the top down.   There is much that is good about our culture, also much that may be actually destroying us.....in the end, history is a true wittness ;-).

Good hearing from you my friend, missed you.

peace
mark


#13    willowdreams

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 07:13 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 14 July 2013 - 02:33 PM, said:

It is always something that needs to be fought over, it is the nature of any society.  At least we can do it here ;-).  It also depends from what side of the fence you are on my friend.  For believers, 'some' atheists intention of getting rid of any mention of God in public is looked upon as interferring with their rights to express their beliefs......so it is worked out in the public forum.  That goes for moral issues as well.  If something is legal, then people have the right, if it is moral or not, well that again is something that needs to be spoken out for the good of the community.  Then each makes up his or her mind.  It is when screaming, name calling and violence enter the picture that trouble starts.  I am pro life, but believe that if people want abortion to go away, or at least to be less than what it is today, then change has to come from the bottom up, not from the top down.   There is much that is good about our culture, also much that may be actually destroying us.....in the end, history is a true wittness ;-).

Good hearing from you my friend, missed you.

peace
mark

I am back for a bit :)

I do not mind 'god' in public even though I am an atheist,... But i do not think biblical stuff like 10 commandments and such shoudl be on public government buildings and such.

if we have a true separation of religion and state, then it needs to be true to form.

Thats my personal belief, but I do not feel so upset over it that i am going to do marches and such. I dont do things like that because I see how things are moving forward. I am in my 50's now, and I do not see us moving backwards, sometimes little battles of things may take some steps back, but the main battles keep steadily moving forward. So I know whey my grandchildren are in their 50's, there will be less religious issues in politics. I know its slowly being drummed out through sheer education and 'freedom of choices'.

Now here is the new issue.. how do we keep ourselves from pushing things to such a degree of not infringing on others that we become like the people in the book 'the giver' by lois lowry

Hope we do not push things that hard core, one never knows, we are not known as a people who know how to put our own breaks on :P

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#14    GreenmansGod

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 09:19 PM

When It comes to government buildings we don't need religious dogma plastered all over buildings. It is a waste of money for one thing.  I would take it off the money if I could. I have learn to finish the pledge before everybody else. (That is not as easy as one would think.) The founding fathers made every clear the US is a secular nation.    What other people do with their private property who cares. You can put up a 30 ft cross for all I care, but not on land that I own a part of.

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#15    markdohle

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Posted 14 July 2013 - 11:56 PM

View PostDarkwind, on 14 July 2013 - 09:19 PM, said:

When It comes to government buildings we don't need religious dogma plastered all over buildings. It is a waste of money for one thing.  I would take it off the money if I could. I have learn to finish the pledge before everybody else. (That is not as easy as one would think.) The founding fathers made every clear the US is a secular nation. What other people do with their private property who cares. You can put up a 30 ft cross for all I care, but not on land that I own a part of.

I agree, or have a spot for everyone to put up whatever ;-).

Peace
Mark





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