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the book of mormon empires.


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#1    danielost

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 01:23 AM

The book of mormon speaks of four empries.  The first one, the book, doesn't say who they were.  It does say th last leader, watched as the second group landed.  This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible.  Samething happened to this group.  Its last leader watched as the third and fourth groups landed.  They were divided between brothers.  They became the lamoinights the nephites.
I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

After christ came to visit here, after his exacution.  Befpre christ the two groups were divided along family lines.  After, christ left, they were devided between belivers and non believers.

The aztecs and the incas.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#2    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:24 AM

I can't see why they couldn't be the omacks and the mians.
After all, it's from a book that's a forago of lies, half-truths and heresies anyway, so appropriated histories isn't that too big a stretch.

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#3    Likely Guy

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:48 AM

Daniel, if you're waiting for another Mormon to come along and discuss your questions, I'm afraid that you might be in for a long wait.

Mean time, this is the 'friendly discussion' forum, not the 'debate' forum, isn't it? :) (We should keep that in mind, I think.)

Unless, you'd like to debate the points that you brought up Daniel?


#4    Philangeli

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:35 AM

View Postdanielost, on 11 July 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible.  .

My brother's got all their albums. They are still touring, apparently.

View Postdanielost, on 11 July 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

I often wonder about this as well.

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#5    Lava_Lady

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 11:49 AM

View Postdanielost, on 11 July 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

The book of mormon speaks of four empries.  The first one, the book, doesn't say who they were.  It does say th last leader, watched as the second group landed.  This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible.  Samething happened to this group.  Its last leader watched as the third and fourth groups landed.  They were divided between brothers.  They became the lamoinights the nephites.
I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

After christ came to visit here, after his exacution.  Befpre christ the two groups were divided along family lines.  After, christ left, they were devided between belivers and non believers.

The aztecs and the incas.

Do you mean the Olmecs and the Mayans?


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#6    Quaentum

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:03 PM

View Postdanielost, on 11 July 2013 - 01:23 AM, said:

The book of mormon speaks of four empries.  The first one, the book, doesn't say who they were.  It does say th last leader, watched as the second group landed.  This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible.  Samething happened to this group.  Its last leader watched as the third and fourth groups landed.  They were divided between brothers.  They became the lamoinights the nephites.
I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

After christ came to visit here, after his exacution.  Befpre christ the two groups were divided along family lines.  After, christ left, they were devided between belivers and non believers.

The aztecs and the incas.

The Nephites were supposedly descendants of Nephi who came from Jerusalem to the Americas.  DNA shows that none of the early people of the Americas came from the middle east.  In essence it was nothing more than a fabrication added to the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#7    Dark_Grey

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:25 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 11 July 2013 - 03:03 PM, said:

The Nephites were supposedly descendants of Nephi who came from Jerusalem to the Americas.  DNA shows that none of the early people of the Americas came from the middle east.  In essence it was nothing more than a fabrication added to the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith.

The smoking gun for me is the passage that says people with black skin were israelites that were "cursed by God" (something the Mormon church didn't formally refute until the early 1970's). That tells me right there the whole book of Morom is nothing but a fabrication by Joseph Smith. Here's my logic:

No where in the Bible does it discriminate against people with dark skin. Why? Because it was written in a time when everyone had dark skin. On the other hand, Joesph Smith lived in "white America" during a time when slavery/racism was extremely common. So for the BoM to include a passage that directly condemns people of color is irrefutable proof that it was written during the time of Smith and did not come from God like he claimed.

Alma 17:14 describes the Lamanites as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and
murdering people, God felt the need to change their skin color to make them not enticing to the Nephites ...
as if their immoral acts were not sufficient enough to deter the Nephites into wanting to become like
them. It is also stated in 2 Nephi 5:23 that the Nephites would also be cursed with the dark skin if they
married with the Lamanites.


...it's not really one of those "up for interpretation" passages. I think it's a pretty clear description of the thinking at the time. It's funny, because though I'm sure there are now people of color/ethnicity in the church, one of the first things I noticed upon visiting my inlaws Mormon temple was the sheer number of white members. I was so intrigued I had to ask my wife if there was an unspoken rule about it :unsure2:

""If we are going to move forward with technology, we're going to have to hand the self destruct button to every person on the planet and trust them not to push it."

Aaron Frank


#8    DeWitz

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:29 PM

View PostPhilangeli, on 11 July 2013 - 11:35 AM, said:

My brother's got all their albums. They are still touring, apparently.



I often wonder about this as well.

Daniel, perhaps you are referring to "Jason and the Argonauts," a movie riff on ancient Greek mythology with special effects by first gen SFX genius Ray Harryhausen?

The turtledove makes repeat appearances in both the Old Testament and New, but they aren't fronted by a "Jason." A "Jason" does appear in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 17, as a pious Greek who hosted Paul and Silas and got thrown in jail for that kindness, but he's not referred to as a sailor, singer or turtle. These don't seem to match up with your citation.

Did you mean that 'Jason and the turtles' were in the extrabiblical Book of Mormon? I've read it, but can't locate the reference. I've been to the Hill Cumorah pageant but don't recall Jason, or the turtles, as part of the actual story, ship crews or the musical revue.

Edited by szentgyorgy, 11 July 2013 - 03:33 PM.

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#9    DeWitz

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 03:45 PM

View PostDark_Grey, on 11 July 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

The smoking gun for me is the passage that says people with black skin were israelites that were "cursed by God" (something the Mormon church didn't formally refute until the early 1970's). That tells me right there the whole book of Morom is nothing but a fabrication by Joseph Smith. Here's my logic:

No where in the Bible does it discriminate against people with dark skin. Why? Because it was written in a time when everyone had dark skin. On the other hand, Joesph Smith lived in "white America" during a time when slavery/racism was extremely common. So for the BoM to include a passage that directly condemns people of color is irrefutable proof that it was written during the time of Smith and did not come from God like he claimed.

Alma 17:14 describes the Lamanites as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and
murdering people, God felt the need to change their skin color to make them not enticing to the Nephites ...
as if their immoral acts were not sufficient enough to deter the Nephites into wanting to become like
them. It is also stated in 2 Nephi 5:23 that the Nephites would also be cursed with the dark skin if they
married with the Lamanites.


...it's not really one of those "up for interpretation" passages. I think it's a pretty clear description of the thinking at the time. It's funny, because though I'm sure there are now people of color/ethnicity in the church, one of the first things I noticed upon visiting my inlaws Mormon temple was the sheer number of white members. I was so intrigued I had to ask my wife if there was an unspoken rule about it :unsure2:

Dark, the only stre-e-e-ec-ch-h-h on this one is the so-called "mark of Cain," which too many hasty conclusions have associated with skin pigmentation (Genesis 4:15). Yes, it has been interpreted, by shoddy 'scholarship,' as being indicative of dark(er) skin. You can see this in the abominable "Christian" justification of slavery, especially the Southern religious rhetoric of the slave-owning South. Most respectable academics have long dispensed with the notion, but researching "mark of Cain" will dig up these racist assertions. Ironically, 'God' meant it as a sign of protection for Cain.

My tongue-in-cheek research suggests that the Nehites were responsible for founding one of the first soft drink bottling concessions in America, producing Nehi for both natives and new arrivals, The Lemonites tended to stick closer to home, offering refreshing citrus- and sugar-based refreshments for passers-by.

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#10    Dark_Grey

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 04:17 PM

View Postszentgyorgy, on 11 July 2013 - 03:45 PM, said:

Dark, the only stre-e-e-ec-ch-h-h on this one is the so-called "mark of Cain," which too many hasty conclusions have associated with skin pigmentation (Genesis 4:15). Yes, it has been interpreted, by shoddy 'scholarship,' as being indicative of dark(er) skin. You can see this in the abominable "Christian" justification of slavery, especially the Southern religious rhetoric of the slave-owning South. Most respectable academics have long dispensed with the notion, but researching "mark of Cain" will dig up these racist assertions. Ironically, 'God' meant it as a sign of protection for Cain.

My tongue-in-cheek research suggests that the Nehites were responsible for founding one of the first soft drink bottling concessions in America, producing Nehi for both natives and new arrivals, The Lemonites tended to stick closer to home, offering refreshing citrus- and sugar-based refreshments for passers-by.

I thought someone might claim it was simply shoddy interpretation.
To further prove that it was actually meant to condemn people of color, I refer to the religious leaders of the Mormon faith:

Brigham Young, second President and Prophet:

"You see, some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses,  7:290)
Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be." (ibid., 10:110)

Wilford Woodruff, fourth President and Prophet:

"What was that mark? It was a mark of blackness. That mark rested upon Cain, and descended upon his posterity from that time until the present. To day there are millions of the descendants of Cain, through the lineage of Ham, in the world, and that mark of darkness still rest upon them." (Millennial Star, 51:339; emphasis added).


In 1963, Look magazine interviewed, at that time, the leader of the LDS Church; Joseph Fielding Smith. Concerning negroes, Smith stated:

I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79).

Smith also taught that "Negroes" were inferior to other races:

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was place upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning… we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren--children of God---notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness."(The Way to Perfection, 101-02).

There you go. Right from the "horses mouth".

There are actually a surprising number of quotes from LDS presidents and other LDS authorities that confirm their "distaste" for people of color. I am not trying to imply this is the current thinking of the church! I am merely providing evidence that the discriminatory passages in the BoM were meant to be just that.

Oh, and one more quote from the tenth president J. F. Smith;

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages...the Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits." (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 66).




Edited -- ridiculous amount of formatting

Edited by Dark_Grey, 11 July 2013 - 04:20 PM.

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#11    Quaentum

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 04:19 PM

View PostDark_Grey, on 11 July 2013 - 03:25 PM, said:

The smoking gun for me is the passage that says people with black skin were israelites that were "cursed by God" (something the Mormon church didn't formally refute until the early 1970's). That tells me right there the whole book of Morom is nothing but a fabrication by Joseph Smith. Here's my logic:

No where in the Bible does it discriminate against people with dark skin. Why? Because it was written in a time when everyone had dark skin. On the other hand, Joesph Smith lived in "white America" during a time when slavery/racism was extremely common. So for the BoM to include a passage that directly condemns people of color is irrefutable proof that it was written during the time of Smith and did not come from God like he claimed.

Alma 17:14 describes the Lamanites as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and
murdering people, God felt the need to change their skin color to make them not enticing to the Nephites ...
as if their immoral acts were not sufficient enough to deter the Nephites into wanting to become like
them. It is also stated in 2 Nephi 5:23 that the Nephites would also be cursed with the dark skin if they
married with the Lamanites.


...it's not really one of those "up for interpretation" passages. I think it's a pretty clear description of the thinking at the time. It's funny, because though I'm sure there are now people of color/ethnicity in the church, one of the first things I noticed upon visiting my inlaws Mormon temple was the sheer number of white members. I was so intrigued I had to ask my wife if there was an unspoken rule about it :unsure2:

A simpler refutation would be this:

Joseph Smith using the seer stones in his hat was supposedly shown the words for the Book of Mormon.  He would read them and someone nearby would write them down.  Often, he would spell out the words and have the person who wrote them down read the spelling back to him.  When it was taken to the printer, they noticed errors in the book and asked if they should correct those errors.  Joseph Smith's reply was that the book was perfect and nothing needed to be changed.

Since it's first printing in 1830, more than 6,000 spelling errors have been corrected.  This leads to one of two conclusions:

1 - That Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon.
2 - God can't spell.

AA LOGIC
They didn't use thousands of workers - oops forgot about the work camps
There's no evidence for ramps - You found one?...Bummer
Well we know they didn't use ancient tools to cut and shape the stones - Chisel marks?  Craps
I still say aliens built them!

#12    Dark_Grey

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 04:24 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 11 July 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:

A simpler refutation would be this:

Joseph Smith using the seer stones in his hat was supposedly shown the words for the Book of Mormon.  He would read them and someone nearby would write them down.  Often, he would spell out the words and have the person who wrote them down read the spelling back to him.  When it was taken to the printer, they noticed errors in the book and asked if they should correct those errors.  Joseph Smith's reply was that the book was perfect and nothing needed to be changed.

Since it's first printing in 1830, more than 6,000 spelling errors have been corrected.  This leads to one of two conclusions:

1 - That Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon.
2 - God can't spell.

lol well said

""If we are going to move forward with technology, we're going to have to hand the self destruct button to every person on the planet and trust them not to push it."

Aaron Frank


#13    danielost

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:37 PM

View PostLava_Lady, on 11 July 2013 - 11:49 AM, said:



Do you mean the Olmecs and the Mayans?

Yes, I did. According to the so called experts, both groups just up and abandoned their cities.  The reason we can't find the cities namedin te book of mormon, is because they forgot to putup a sign saying welcome to _--------.  The names we use are our names for the cities.

I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#14    danielost

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostQuaentum, on 11 July 2013 - 04:19 PM, said:



A simpler refutation would be this:

Joseph Smith using the seer stones in his hat was supposedly shown the words for the Book of Mormon.  He would read them and someone nearby would write them down.  Often, he would spell out the words and have the person who wrote them down read the spelling back to him.  When it was taken to the printer, they noticed errors in the book and asked if they should correct those errors.  Joseph Smith's reply was that the book was perfect and nothing needed to be changed.

Since it's first printing in 1830, more than 6,000 spelling errors have been corrected.  This leads to one of two conclusions:

1 - That Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon.
2 - God can't spell.

You forgot one.  Smith only got thru the eigth grade.  Perhaps h couldn't spell.  As for the computer glass, we can do that now have you heard of google glass.


The story of jason is in the bible.



I am a Mormon.  If I don't use Mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other Mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the Mormon faith. Thanks for caring and if you don't peace be with you.

#15    Dark_Grey

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Posted 11 July 2013 - 08:49 PM

View Postdanielost, on 11 July 2013 - 08:41 PM, said:

You forgot one.  Smith only got thru the eigth grade.  Perhaps h couldn't spell.  As for the computer glass, we can do that now have you heard of google glass.


The story of jason is in the bible.

His point is that Smith said the BoM was perfect, 6000 spelling corrections proved he was wrong.

""If we are going to move forward with technology, we're going to have to hand the self destruct button to every person on the planet and trust them not to push it."

Aaron Frank





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