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Libertarian populism is bunk


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#16    spartan max2

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 03:41 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 12 July 2013 - 09:02 AM, said:

Some do. Krugman is a Nobel Prize-winning professor at Princeton.

While his words won't convert the libertarian populist base it will alert those who up to now were unaware of that fringe part of society.

good job he won a prize.

That's funny cause didn't Obma win a peace prize and then he send a troop surge of 30k to Afghanistan :whistle:

Needless to say I don't completely trust the people who hand out these prizes anymore.

Edit: oh and Hitler got nominated for one back in his time. So a lot of times these prizes are just political.

Edited by spartan max2, 12 July 2013 - 03:46 PM.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
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#17    tapirmusic

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 04:18 PM

Even though this is a hyper-partisan attack on "libertarians"....  And even though this topic is proof that the Democrats are already absolutely terrified that Rand Paul will become this country's next president...

Shouldn't this be in the Philosophy Forum?


#18    Spiral staircase

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:07 PM

Along the line of Krugman's argument (when that piece was read in full) is the following by Roosevelt Institute fellow Mike Konczal.

Can libertarian populism save the Republican Party?

Quote

The specifics of a libertarian populist agenda are often lacking, but advocates sometimes point to to things like Rand Paul’s budget plan. This is a plan that calls for flat taxes, cutting discretionary spending through a balanced budget and removing the Federal Reserve’s dual mandate to promote low inflation and high employment.

This brings to mind Eugene Mirman’s joke about bears, where he notes that the common notion that you should play dead if you see a bear “is a rumor that bears spread.” Similarly, the idea that reducing the tax burden on the rich while calling for tighter money and deregulation counts as “populism” sure seems like a rumor spread by the 1 percent.

As Ross Douthat notes, this is an approach that deserves to lose given the economic realities facing the working class. From the voter’s perspective, one immediate problem is that libertarian populism looks less like a genuinely new agenda and more like a fresh marketing spin on the GOP’s current platform favoring “job creators.”

—snip

http://www.washingto...publican-party/

Edited by The world needs you, 12 July 2013 - 07:18 PM.


#19    tapirmusic

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:50 PM

Krugman and his cat can go cry in their pie!


#20    Jeremiah65

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 07:58 PM

View PostThe world needs you, on 12 July 2013 - 07:07 PM, said:

Can libertarian populism save the Republican Party?



Absolutely not and the party has no intention of it.

You are obviously confusing Republicans with libertarian ideas (note the lower case "L") with true Libertarians...I present exhibit "A"...

The Libertarian Party platform.
http://www.lp.org/platform

Thee is a distinct difference in a Republican with libertarian ideas or positions and a true Libertarian.

A "true" Libertarian is fiscally conservative and socially liberal...this is a fact.  Anyone that tells you something different is trying to sell you snake oil.  It's simply the way it is.

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The Libertarian Party will one day overtake the Republicans and when the "people" realize our position on economy and social issues...we will take a fair share of Democrats as well.

Perhaps it is time for the Democrats to go as well...they have outlived their usefulness.  There are something like 30 different registered political parties in the USA...my advice is do as I did several years ago...read!  You may find the party you are so in love with does not really represent your mind and ideology as well as you thought they did.

Edited by Jeremiah65, 12 July 2013 - 08:08 PM.

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#21    Spiral staircase

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:14 PM

As much as the public service announcment regarding what libertarianism is can be appreicated by a few here, as is, many on this site as fringe as it is already know.

Krugman's article (when read in full) was specifically about certain elements within the Republican Party proposing a new strategy based on "populist libertarianism." That is their upcoming strategy to brand themselves as libertarians and not as Libertarians with a capital "L".

It could be an interesting conversation for libertarians themselves in how the Republicans might hijack their agenda and distract others from what libertarianism really is. Or it could be an authentic dose of libertarianism injected into the GOP. Regardless there is a renewed intersection occuring between the two and some are keenly aware of it.

The whole point of this thread is about a more narrow and specific strategy regarding that intersection of Republicans and libertarian ideology. It was introduced this year in May by Phyllis Schlafly.




Phyllis Schlafly Tells Republicans To Ignore Hispanic Voters, Focus On White People (VIDEO)

Quote

Should Republicans ignore Hispanic voters altogether?

That's the advice of conservative firebrand Phyllis Schlafly, who told conservative radio program Focus Today last week that the GOP needs to spend its time reaching out to white voters, and ignore Hispanic voterswho aren't going to vote conservative anyway.

The idea that Republicans should court the Hispanic vote is "a great myth," Schlafly said. " And there is not the slightest bit of evidence they are going to vote Republican. And the people the Republicans should reach out to are the white votes—the white voters who didn't vote in the last election."

—snip

http://www.huffingto..._n_3361620.html


Krugman's and Konczal's arguments, both of whom are esteemed economists, is a criticism of that specific strategy.

While this is all part of a conversation a degree higher intellectually than mere partisan attacks or denigrating the two-party system it is still perfectly in bounds to pursue that angle alone for those who desire to ignore this. No worries, carry on!

For the few here who can understand or appreciate the more specific arguments set forth by Krugman and in turn follow up with a critique specifically tailored to that topic then you are invited to offer us your thoughts here.

Here is another view on this same issue of the current Republican Party strategy, which if you are not familiar with now will most likely be hearing about and seeing in action within the upcoming months.

The following piece was cowritten together by political scientists Alan I. Abramowitz and Ruy Teixeira.

Doubling Down On White Voters Looks Like A Terrible Strategy For The GOP

Quote

In the aftermath of Barack Obama's relatively comfortable reelection victory in 2012 — a win fueled by massive margins among African Americans, Hispanics and other nonwhite voters — an intense debate has begun among Republican leaders and strategists over the future direction of the party. The GOP has now lost the national popular vote in five of the last six presidential elections. Yet according to national exit polls, Republican candidates won the white vote by double-digit margins in the last four of these elections, including a 20-point margin in 2012.

Given these results, some prominent Republican strategists, including Karl Rove, believe that the key to the party's future viability in presidential elections is finding ways to increase its share of the growing nonwhite vote. Since 1992, according to national exit polls, the nonwhite share of the electorate has increased from 13% to 28%, and this trend is almost certain to continue for many years to come. Based on census data, the voters who will be entering the electorate over the next few decades will include a much larger proportion of nonwhites, and especially Latinos, than the voters who will be leaving the electorate.

But not all GOP strategists agree with the approach advocated by Rove and his allies or with the necessity of increasing the party's share of the nonwhite vote in order to achieve success in future presidential elections. In a recent series of posts at RealClearPolitics.com, analyst Sean Trende has argued that Republicans can effectively compete in future presidential elections without substantially increasing their support among Hispanics and other nonwhite voters by focusing on increasing turnout and support among white voters, who will continue to make up the large majority of the American electorate.

—snip

http://www.businessi...strategy-2013-7


So is this a sensible strategy for the Republican Party or not?

And that is what Krugman was calling bunk, not the whole libertarian ideology, no, he was specially discussing this strategy as being bunk.

Edited by The world needs you, 12 July 2013 - 09:44 PM.


#22    Jeremiah65

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:40 PM

I admit at first, I took what they were saying as a "lumping" of the two parties together...which was the point of my initial rebuttals...they are not the same.

I believe the Republicans know they are a dinosaur party...soon to face the fate of the Whigs and the Federalists.  I believe they are grasping at anything and everything to try and stay relevant but it simply will not work.  they are too rigid...too old.

They are still on the bully pulpit trying to tell people that they are for small gov't and big freedom yet they want to dictate what you can put in or take out of your body and fully willing to create legislation (and the entities to enforce that legislation) to control people's "morality".  That is not "small gov and big freedom".

THAT will be their downfall.

I am for responsible spending when necessary (fiscal responsibility) but then...just leave the people alone.  The Repubs cannot get out of their own way by allowing religious dogma to try and drag the modern world back a century...it shall be their undoing.

If the Repubs continue to ramrod through archaic legislation in the name of religion and morality (supposedly when there is a division of church and state)...they will get what they ask for and what they deserve...

Unless they make a profound leap into the modern era...this will not end well for the Republicans...

Posted ImageY

You can count on it.

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#23    Spiral staircase

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 09:50 PM

No worries and thanks for your opinions through and through.

Here is the 1 minute video of Phyllis Schlafly's advice to the Republican Party.



Krugman's argument included this but also focused on the Republican branded "libertarian populism" as reducing the social safety net and how that plan will backfire since most of the voters that Phyllis Schlafly said to focus on depend on that social safety net to a certain degree. These two points coming into conjunction will not help the Republicans as much as Schlafly and, specifically, Rand Paul believe it will according to Krugman.


#24    darkmoonlady

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 10:28 PM

Love how Republicans want it both ways' capitalism unfettered and no government help. OK sounds fine until you put it into play with lobbyists who transform legislation into swiss cheese for corporate interests who turn around and ruin the economy, don't want to pay a living wage then want to get rid of public assistance. We have figured out that the corporate interest is making the top level executives  the most money and everyone else can just go starve. Libertarians want government out of our lives but they play by the exact same rules, wallow with the same shady lobbyists they swore they
wouldn't. http://irregulartime...s-off-the-hook/

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#25    Mikko-kun

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Posted 12 July 2013 - 11:06 PM

It might be sensible for republicans to win votes, for that I dont know.

But it wont be sensible for them in the long run, at least if they can't stupidize voters and take away their caring and readiness to act (act by voting for one), take those away by whatever means. It's not sensible if they want to look like they still have a backbone. They should go southern-state style and endorse slavery but not in a racist way this time, just let everyone be slaves despite what's their color of skin, as long as they're not rich. Also remove all free healthcare and reduce rich people's taxes and increase state control. Not this two-sided bs. You either stand by what you believe in or dont, no dilly-dallying.

I'm just dancing, 'till dropping...

#26    acidhead

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 01:53 AM



"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

#27    Almagest

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 02:36 AM

For such a 'smart' and 'logical' political party, the Libertarians love to use youtube links and image macros instead of actual arguments.

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#28    Jeremiah65

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 02:41 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 13 July 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

For such a 'smart' and 'logical' political party, the Libertarians love to use youtube links and image macros instead of actual arguments.


Posted Image
Yep...it's like using chalk and crayons to explain things to children...

"Liberty means responsibility.  That is why most men dread it."  George Bernard Shaw
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it."  Thomas Jefferson

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#29    spartan max2

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:13 AM

View PostAlmagest, on 13 July 2013 - 02:36 AM, said:

For such a 'smart' and 'logical' political party, the Libertarians love to use youtube links and image macros instead of actual arguments.

yes because using various sources and mediums to explain our views must not be a "smart" or "logical" thing. :whistle:

We have arguments, people just have to bother to listen.

Plus im pretty sure those links and images have points they make, some could even go as far to say that those points are part of the "actual argument', just saying.

and on a unimportant note a party with lots of young people tend to like the internet.

" I imagine that the intellegent people are the ones so intellegent that they dont even need or want to look "intellegent" anymore".
Criss Jami

#30    Frank Merton

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Posted 13 July 2013 - 06:41 AM

Politicians have to have votes, and the Republicans get their votes from a variety of dinosaurs about -- racists, sexists, now homophobes, gun enthusiasts, the religious right, nativists, anti-abortionists, jingoists, and so on.  Purging the Republicans of these groups would guarantee a permanent minority if not third-party status.  Allied with them in an extremely uncomfortable link are main-street small businessmen who want a minimum of government economic management.

The Democrats for the most part get their votes from people voting for whichever party it seems to them promises them the most, and the Democrats rarely have any problem making promises.

Now we see these Libertarians, seemingly, at least on the surface, to have a main-street business orientation but divorced from the dinosaurs.  Such a re-alignment would produce something not terribly unlike the Social Democrats versus the Conservatives of Europe

I do wish the Libertarians would stop it with all the stupid, patronizing and insulting cartoons.  I also wish they would accept their present status as a small minority unlikely to change anytime soon and cool it with the grandiosity and the efforts to dominate Web chat and discussion boards.

I can see why the Libertarians have jumped on "liberty" as their catch phrase.  This seems to be the American religion, poorly as Americans seem to understand it, it works, at least with a few.





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