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#31    darkmoonlady

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:27 PM

View PostKowalski, on 15 July 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Good grief, quit being so over dramatic....

No one's trying to decide anything for anyone. If your going to be having sex, and don't want to get pregnant, get on the frickin pill! It's that simple. What is this pathological need of pro choicers to kill innocent, helpless babies? Is it some type of power trip?

You can whine and b**** about how it's a "clump of cells" (which is the same thing as the Nazi's calling Jews "undesirables" it demonized the enemy making it easier to kill them) and how it's your body and your choice, which is the same argument slave owners used to say, It was their property and they can do what they want with their property.... :no:

I'm sure most abortion clinics will not shut down, most probably already qualify as ambulatory surgical centers, or they will make the needed changes to qualify.  No one is making abortion illegal, and I would like to point out there are instances where I believe abortion is necessary, but it should not be used as birth control!

For God's sake, we are not animals in heat! Use some common sense....

After the horrors of the Gosnell Clinic you would think women would want these types of laws....

But, hey who am I to question the right of a mother to kill her almost full term baby, by having a butcher stab it in the back of the neck with a pair of scissors.... That was sarcasm by the way....

Now who is being overdramatic, first of all, birth control has a failure rate. So even if you are careful and do all the things you are supposed to, you can still end up pregnant when you weren't planning on it. Secondly it's again not up to you or the state to decide if a woman DOES use it at a form of birth control. Last time I checked women AND men are allowed to do what they want (legally) with their own bodies if they want to and abortion is legal. The Gosnell Clinic while sad and the details disturbing is not typical of ANY regulated and safe abortion clinic despite all the hype. Those involved in case are being prosecuted for not following medical regulations and if any clinic, be it anything from dental like that office in Oklahoma that infected people Hepatitis or a plastic surgery clinic that runs unlicensed there should be and are consequences. Should then all dental clinics and plastic surgery clinics be shut...no that would insane. late term abortions are rare and in the majority (like 99%) of the cases the fetus is non viable. That means it has a catastrophic defect not compatible with life outside the womb.

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#32    LogicViking

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:29 PM

View Postrashore, on 15 July 2013 - 04:42 PM, said:

I dunno why some pro-choice folks think that way, I dunno why some folks that are anti-abortion are ok with death penalty and guns.  Maybe because it's three different circumstances that some folks approach each one individually instead of clumping them all together. Of all the people I know in my life, pretty much all of them are pro-gun, or at least supportive of 2nd amendment when they aren't personally pro-gun. Most are pro-choice, though some are very much anti-abortion. Some are pro-death penalty, though some think it's flat out wrong. None of them seem to cluster all three issues together. Personally, I'm pro-choice, and I'm also pro-death penalty and pro-firearm. To me, they are three separate issues that have their own reasoning that's not necessarily connected to the others.

I'm only speaking some of my experience, but A LOT of *left wing* affiliated people who are pro-choice are also anti-gun and anti-death penalty. I was mainly wondering how these specific people find it plausible that a child with a heart beat has less rights than a person convicted of taking life from another person. That's all.

View PostKowalski, on 15 July 2013 - 06:09 PM, said:

Good grief, quit being so over dramatic....

No one's trying to decide anything for anyone. If your going to be having sex, and don't want to get pregnant, get on the frickin pill! It's that simple. What is this pathological need of pro choicers to kill innocent, helpless babies? Is it some type of power trip?

You can whine and b**** about how it's a "clump of cells" (which is the same thing as the Nazi's calling Jews "undesirables" it demonized the enemy making it easier to kill them) and how it's your body and your choice, which is the same argument slave owners used to say, It was their property and they can do what they want with their property.... :no:

I'm sure most abortion clinics will not shut down, most probably already qualify as ambulatory surgical centers, or they will make the needed changes to qualify.  No one is making abortion illegal, and I would like to point out there are instances where I believe abortion is necessary, but it should not be used as birth control!

For God's sake, we are not animals in heat! Use some common sense....

I agree, the problem that I see is that there are SO many ways to prevent pregnancy even if you decide to have an active sex life, and they are all easily obtained. Why is it ok for someones irresponsibility to justify the death of a human being? Your RIGHT to prevent pregnancy begins with your RESPONSIBILITY as a consenting *adult* - if you aren't responsible enough to prevent the pregnancy in the first place, why do you retain the right to have to the RESPONSIBILITY of another humans life into your hands?

I will say that I do not disagree with abortion in all cases, to include rape and health risks to the mother.

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#33    Thanato

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:36 PM

View PostLogicViking, on 15 July 2013 - 08:29 PM, said:

I'm only speaking some of my experience, but A LOT of *left wing* affiliated people who are pro-choice are also anti-gun and anti-death penalty. I was mainly wondering how these specific people find it plausible that a child with a heart beat has less rights than a person convicted of taking life from another person. That's all.



I agree, the problem that I see is that there are SO many ways to prevent pregnancy even if you decide to have an active sex life, and they are all easily obtained. Why is it ok for someones irresponsibility to justify the death of a human being? Your RIGHT to prevent pregnancy begins with your RESPONSIBILITY as a consenting *adult* - if you aren't responsible enough to prevent the pregnancy in the first place, why do you retain the right to have to the RESPONSIBILITY of another humans life into your hands?

I will say that I do not disagree with abortion in all cases, to include rape and health risks to the mother.

I know a few concenting adults who where on birth control and it failed. Some chose to proceed with the pregnancy, others did not. Remember nothing works 100% of the time except the choice not to do it and given society asking people to abstain from sex is just not going to work.

Some times people enjoy sex (as they should) but are not ready to be a parent (metally or finacially) and it is their choice if they don't want to have it.

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#34    LogicViking

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:39 PM

View Postdarkmoonlady, on 15 July 2013 - 08:27 PM, said:

Now who is being overdramatic, first of all, birth control has a failure rate. So even if you are careful and do all the things you are supposed to, you can still end up pregnant when you weren't planning on it. Secondly it's again not up to you or the state to decide if a woman DOES use it at a form of birth control. Last time I checked women AND men are allowed to do what they want (legally) with their own bodies if they want to and abortion is legal. The Gosnell Clinic while sad and the details disturbing is not typical of ANY regulated and safe abortion clinic despite all the hype. Those involved in case are being prosecuted for not following medical regulations and if any clinic, be it anything from dental like that office in Oklahoma that infected people Hepatitis or a plastic surgery clinic that runs unlicensed there should be and are consequences. Should then all dental clinics and plastic surgery clinics be shut...no that would insane. late term abortions are rare and in the majority (like 99%) of the cases the fetus is non viable. That means it has a catastrophic defect not compatible with life outside the womb.

Why does this not fall under the risk you are taking when engaging in an activity that is designed and obviously known to cause PREGNANCY? For example, I am an avid griller. Obviously I take the normal precautions when engaging in this enjoyable activity, such as a water source nearby to extinguish a fire in case of emergency. Now, say for example that fire gets out of control, and even my water source fails to protect me from burns, and I end up suffering some sort of injury. Now, that's an unfortunate thing, but it's a risk i WILLINGLY took when I decided I was responsible enough to grill, and I am left to deal with the consequences accordingly. If you make the decision to engage in sexual intercourse, why does the consequences of that decision fall to a child who has to choice in the matter? I think this society has lost all sense of personal accountability. We are taught that's it's ok to be irresponsible, because you can then push that problem off onto someone else or get rid of it entirely. Maybe if people were forced to deal with the consequences of their actions, people would think twice before taking that plunge.

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#35    LogicViking

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 08:41 PM

View PostThanato, on 15 July 2013 - 08:36 PM, said:

I know a few concenting adults who where on birth control and it failed. Some chose to proceed with the pregnancy, others did not. Remember nothing works 100% of the time except the choice not to do it and given society asking people to abstain from sex is just not going to work.

Some times people enjoy sex (as they should) but are not ready to be a parent (metally or finacially) and it is their choice if they don't want to have it.

As a said above, and I will add that heroine is also said to be enjoyable, and yet, you usually are responsible enough to refrain from that, are you not? I am not bashing sex, I prefer is frequently myself, but I was taught that by making the decision that I was responsible enough to enjoy sex, I was responsible enough to deal with the consequences of it as well.

Edited by LogicViking, 15 July 2013 - 08:41 PM.

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#36    Kowalski

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:16 PM

Birth control failure rates are pretty low.



Quote

Birth control failure rates

Implants and injectables 2-4%
Oral contraceptives 9%
Diaphragm and cervical cap 13%
Male condom 15%
Periodic abstinence 22%
Withdrawal 26%
Spermicides 28%


Strategies for effective birth control
  • Use your chosen birth control method consistently.
  • Carefully follow instructions for the use of your birth control method.
  • Use a back-up contraception like a condom, if you forget 2 or more birth control pills during your cycle.
  • Certain antibiotics and other drugs can reduce the effectiveness of birth control pills–ask your pharmacist if this is a concern for you whenever you fill a prescription.
  • Take birth control pills at the same time each day.
  • Using a condom and spermicide with a diaphragm or cervical cap during your fertile period can result in almost 100% contraceptive success.
  • If you use an IUD, check for the string extending from your cervix monthly, if you can’t feel it use back-up birth control and call your doctor.
  • Call your doctor immediately for emergency contraceptives, like Plan B, after unprotected sex


Quote

WHY ARE ABORTIONS PERFORMED?
  • On average, women give at least 3 reasons for choosing abortion: 3/4 say that having a baby would interfere with work, school or other responsibilities; about 3/4 say they cannot afford a child; and 1/2 say they do not want to be a single parent or are having problems with their husband or partner (AGI).
  • Only 12% of women included a physical problem with their health among reasons for having an abortion (NAF).
  • One per cent (of aborting women) reported that they were the survivors of rape (NAF).



Quote


WHO HAS ABORTIONS?
  • In 2009, 85% of all abortions were performed on unmarried women (CDC).
  • Women living with a partner to whom they are not married account for 25% of abortions but only about 10% of women in the population (NAF).
  • In 2009, 55.3% of abortions were performed on women who had not aborted in the past; 36.6% were performed on women with one or two prior abortions, and 8.1% were performed on women with three or more prior abortions (CDC).
  • Among women who obtained abortions in 2009, 40.2% had no prior live births; 46.3% had one or two prior live births, and 13.6% had three or more prior live births (CDC).
  • Women between the ages of 20-24 obtained 33% of all abortions in 2009; women between 25-29 obtained 24% (CDC).
  • In 2009, women aged 20-29 years had the highest abortion rates (27.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 20-24 years and 20.4 abortions per 1,000 women aged 25-29 years) (CDC).
  • 50% of U.S. women obtaining abortions are younger than 25; women aged 20-24 obtain 33% of all U.S. abortions and teenagers obtain 17% (AGI).
  • In 2009, adolescents under 15 years obtained .05% of all abortions, but had the highest abortion ratio, 785 abortions for every 1,000 live births (CDC).


Link: http://www.abort73.c...ion_statistics/


It seems that most abortions are done out of convenience, not because their birth control failed or they were raped.....

Edited by Kowalski, 15 July 2013 - 09:18 PM.


#37    Kowalski

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:23 PM

For those that think having an abortion is the safest procedure you can have:



Quote

Last week The New York Timespublished an article scrutinizing legislation outlawing abortion and quoting the former chief of abortion surveillance for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention saying, “Having an abortion is safer than an injection of penicillin.”
The article leads with the story about a young woman who was brutally mistreated in 2010 during an illegal, late-term procedure at a facility run by abortionist Stephen Brigham. The 18-year-old woman arrived at John Hopkins Hospital in critical condition with a pierced uterus and bowel. Brigham started the abortion in New Jersey and ended at an unmarked, unregulated facility in Elkton, Maryland. Because of that case, Maryland adopted tighter licensing and inspection regulations for abortion facilities, restrictions that came into full effect this year.
The writer of the NYT article used Brigham’s story to make the point that though “illegal or haphazard methods” are wrong, abortion as a whole is safe and should not be made inaccessible. Besides, if only 10 women out of 1.2 million that had the procedure in 2010 died, then what’s the problem?



Quote

  • Infection rate after abortion can be as high as 27 percent.
  • The sterility rate for women following abortion is as high as 5 percent. A woman who suffers from an infection following abortion is five to eight times more likely to have a potentially life-threatening ectopic (tubal) pregnancy in subsequent pregnancies. Abortion procedures place women in higher risk categories for future pregnancies and, for as many as 1 in 20 women, deprive them of the chance to bear children.
  • Short term risks include blood loss, blood clots, incomplete abortions, infection, pelvic inflammatory disease, injury to the cervix and other organs, and hemorrhage. In 2008, 10,890 women suffered from excessive blood loss following an abortion.
  • Pre-term birth occurs prior to the 37th week of pregnancy and is the leading cause of infant mortality. It also can cause disabilities. Most women abort with the idea of having children later in life. But more than 130 published studies show a statistically significant association between induced abortion and subsequent pre-term birth or low birth weight. If a woman has three or more abortions, the risk for future delivery before 28 weeks rises by a staggering 178 percent.
  • A 2011 study published by the British Journal of Psychiatry found that women face an 81 percent increased risk of mental health problems following an abortion—a 34 percent increased risk of anxiety, a 37 percent increased risk of depression, a 110 percent increased risk of alcohol use, and a 155 percent increased risk of suicide.
  • The risk of suicide is three times greater for women who aborted than for women who delivered.
As for penicillin, Eck says that in 30 years of work, she can count on one hand the number of times she has seen it cause a bad reaction.

Link: http://www.worldmag....on_safety_myths

Edited by Kowalski, 15 July 2013 - 09:23 PM.


#38    Arbenol

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:43 PM

View PostKowalski, on 15 July 2013 - 05:01 PM, said:

... you have to admit, a lot of liberal progressives are pro choice, and anti gun. At least from what I've seen anyway....


That goes both ways, especially in America.
An American conservative is more likely to be an anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, pro-gun, climate change denying creationist, who thinks Zimmerman acted in self defence.

For a liberal - just reverse the above.

Of course, both statements are gross generalisations.

Anyway, Kowalski, I'm a little surprised by your stance here. We briefly discussed this when the bill first failed and (if I remember right) your opinion was that, whilst being pro-life, making abortion inaccessible was likely to cause more harm. I'm sure the last thing you would want to see was women in your state going to 'amateur' surgeons to have this procedure done. Abortions will continue to happen, why not minimise the potential harm this could do to the women? To make a law that reduces the availability of abortions has the same effect as banning it.


#39    Kowalski

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:55 PM

View PostArbenol68, on 15 July 2013 - 09:43 PM, said:

That goes both ways, especially in America.
An American conservative is more likely to be an anti-abortion, pro-death penalty, pro-gun, climate change denying creationist, who thinks Zimmerman acted in self defence.

For a liberal - just reverse the above.

Of course, both statements are gross generalisations.

Anyway, Kowalski, I'm a little surprised by your stance here. We briefly discussed this when the bill first failed and (if I remember right) your opinion was that, whilst being pro-life, making abortion inaccessible was likely to cause more harm. I'm sure the last thing you would want to see was women in your state going to 'amateur' surgeons to have this procedure done. Abortions will continue to happen, why not minimise the potential harm this could do to the women? To make a law that reduces the availability of abortions has the same effect as banning it.

Well, that's how I felt at first about it. Then after doing some reading about, and a little research, because I wanted to know exactly what the bill said, many of laws didn't seem that bad. Considering what happened at the Gosnell Clinic, I think some of these rules are pretty common sense. Many other states have adopted similar laws in the wake of the horrors of the Gosnell Clinic Trial.
I'll admit, I was wrong about the bill. I think a lot of the articles being put out there are based on fear. I seriously doubt, a huge amount of abortion clinics will be shut down. I'm sure most already meet the standards, and others will most likely, make the upgrade. This is just my opinion though....


#40    LogicViking

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 09:57 PM

The difference :

Death Penalty is a punishment for committing a crime, generally murder.

Pro-Gun is the belief in the right to bear arms to protect one's family and property.

Abortion is the right to end a "potential" human life, *generally because one doesn't want the responsibility ( of course, that's after the sexual intercourse they choose to engage in )

Which seems to be a little off balance there...if you apply common sense that is..hmm...

Edited by LogicViking, 15 July 2013 - 10:01 PM.

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#41    Arbenol

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:10 PM

View PostKowalski, on 15 July 2013 - 09:55 PM, said:

Well, that's how I felt at first about it. Then after doing some reading about, and a little research, because I wanted to know exactly what the bill said, many of laws didn't seem that bad. Considering what happened at the Gosnell Clinic, I think some of these rules are pretty common sense. Many other states have adopted similar laws in the wake of the horrors of the Gosnell Clinic Trial.
I'll admit, I was wrong about the bill. I think a lot of the articles being put out there are based on fear. I seriously doubt, a huge amount of abortion clinics will be shut down. I'm sure most already meet the standards, and others will most likely, make the upgrade. This is just my opinion though....

I don't see a problem with the 20-week limit. That seems totally reasonable.

Is this accurate?

Quote

Only six abortion clinics in Texas can be classified as surgical centres, and all are in major metropolitan areas, according to the Texas Tribune. Critics say the provision will force some women to travel hundreds of miles to have an abortion, while supporters say it will protect women's health and the foetus.
http://www.bbc.co.uk...canada-23298311

If the result of this bill is to close all but six clinics, then it seems that the critics of it have a valid argument. This bill appears to be less about common sense and safety, than about making abortions practically inaccessible without banning them.

Also, the other states that passed similar laws are now bogged down in legal challenges.

I think people can be forgiven for seeing this legislation as motivated by religious morals - your governor is Rick Perry, after all.


#42    Odin11

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:16 PM

View PostLogicViking, on 15 July 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

Maybe some of you can answer a question I have, slightly veering off topic - Why is it ( In my experience ) the same general people who are pro-choice, also tend to be anti-death penalty, anti-firearm ( suppposedly due to the deaths related to them ). Why is this the case with some left leaning people?

View PostKowalski, on 15 July 2013 - 04:21 PM, said:

That's okay! LOL.

Yeah, I don't understand liberal logic at times. They  want to ban guns because of all the children who are killed every year with guns, yet are okay with murdering babies..... :huh:

Yeah, I don't get it....

The irony in these statements is laughable. One can just as easily ask why, in general, are the people who are pro-life also pro-death penalty and pro-gun? That logic is the same. Like rashore said “it's three different circumstances that some folks approach each one individually instead of clumping them all together.”

I’m pro-choice because I know despite our best intentions **** happens. It may be that the birth control failed, the women may have been raped, the life of the mother may be in danger, and the list can go on. But saying all of this, I just want it known that I’m not for abortion willy-nilly, for me personally I would not want an abortion unless there was a medical reason. And if it was way beyond my means to take care of the child I think I would try to find a nice gay couple to adopt. But I’m not a woman so I have no say in the matter, hence I’m pro-choice.  

As for the death penalty I’m only for it in special cases. For example the batman movie theater shooter. I also don’t think that murderers and rapist should get any comfort; i.e., TV, radio, books and the like, or earn degrees while in prison for free.

And about the gun debate, anti-gun and pro-gun are really pro-gun control and anti-gun control. Very, very few people want to ban guns out right and those that do are laughed at by both sides. I’m against any law that bans guns out right, but I think it’s obvious that our gun control laws are lacking and they need to be fixed. I think this is how many people that you call anti-gun feel.

Oh, and hyperbole language gets us nowhere just makes the person doing it look ridiculous and shows that they have no real argument and that they’re just trying to make the other person look as bad as they can so it looks like they’re in the right.

Edited by Odin11, 15 July 2013 - 10:18 PM.

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#43    LogicViking

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:23 PM

View PostOdin11, on 15 July 2013 - 10:16 PM, said:

The irony in these statements is laughable. One can just as easily ask why, in general, are the people who are pro-life also pro-death penalty and pro-gun? That logic is the same. Like rashore said “it's three different circumstances that some folks approach each one individually instead of clumping them all together.


I’m pro-choice because I know despite our best intentions **** happens. It may be that the birth control failed, the women may have been raped, the life of the mother may be in danger, and the list can go on. But saying all of this, I just want it known that I’m not for abortion willy-nilly, for me personally I would not want an abortion unless there was a medical reason. And if it was way beyond my means to take care of the child I think I would try to find a nice gay couple to adopt. But I’m not a woman so I have no say in the matter, hence I’m pro-choice.  

As for the death penalty I’m only for it in special cases. For example the batman movie theater shooter. I also don’t think that murderers and rapist should get any comfort; i.e., TV, radio, books and the like, or earn degrees while in prison for free.

And about the gun debate, anti-gun and pro-gun are really pro-gun control and anti-gun control. Very, very few people want to ban guns out right and those that do are laughed at by both sides. I’m against any law that bans guns out right, but I think it’s obvious that our gun control laws are lacking and they need to be fixed. I think this is how many people that you call anti-gun feel.

Oh, and hyperbole language gets us nowhere just makes the person doing it look ridiculous and shows that they have no real argument and that they’re just trying to make the other person look as bad as they can so it looks like they’re in the right.

I explained the first paragraph, at least from my point of view.

View PostLogicViking, on 15 July 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

The difference :

Death Penalty is a punishment for committing a crime, generally murder.

Pro-Gun is the belief in the right to bear arms to protect one's family and property.

Abortion is the right to end a "potential" human life, *generally because one doesn't want the responsibility ( of course, that's after the sexual intercourse they choose to engage in )

Which seems to be a little off balance there...if you apply common sense that is..hmm...

Hyperbole, coincidentally it can be used to provide an example of someone's line of logic. Coincidentally.

Edited by LogicViking, 15 July 2013 - 10:25 PM.

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#44    Odin11

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:26 PM

View PostLogicViking, on 15 July 2013 - 09:57 PM, said:

The difference :

Death Penalty is a punishment for committing a crime, generally murder.

Pro-Gun is the belief in the right to bear arms to protect one's family and property.

Abortion is the right to end a "potential" human life, *generally because one doesn't want the responsibility ( of course, that's after the sexual intercourse they choose to engage in )

Which seems to be a little off balance there...if you apply common sense that is..hmm...


It’s just not that sample to me. I cant base what I believe about these three subjects on over generalizations.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities." -Voltaire

Geology shows that fossils are of different ages. Paleontology shows a fossil sequence, the list of species represented changes through time. Taxonomy shows biological relationships among species. Evolution is the explanation that threads it all together. Creationism is the practice of squeezing one's eyes shut and wailing "Does not!" ~Author Unknown

#45    LogicViking

LogicViking

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Posted 15 July 2013 - 10:37 PM

View PostOdin11, on 15 July 2013 - 10:26 PM, said:

It’s just not that sample to me. I cant base what I believe about these three subjects on over generalizations.

Of course there are variables to each case, and therefore your opinion will vary case by case. If a woman is raped, should she have to bear that child? Obviously not, rape isn't usually a irresponsible choice. Do all gun owners have good intentions? Obviously not, some will break the law, or harm people.  But GENERALLY speaking, that's my line of logic.

"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.” – Winston Churchill




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