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Edgar Mitchell calls for end to UFO cover-ups


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#91    MySummerJob

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 10:15 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 21 July 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:

There is also a difference between WANTING to believe and knowing. I'd prefer to know. As such the evidence for alien visitation is sorely lacking.
I have to agree that at this point it is just empty words, and blind faith.

We really need cold hard evidence to mark it down as "knowledge of being visited".

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#92    conspiracy buff

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 03:11 AM

View PostJimOberg, on 21 July 2013 - 06:51 PM, said:

I take it this is your way of saying 'no, nobody has ever actually validated the memo-reading method.'

If I can play Devil's advocate for a moment then no one has ever debunked the memo reading method either.  Debunkers are guilty of being oblivious because the guy who deciphered the Ramey memo was an expert in his field.  He certainly knows more than the average poster on an internet forum who mocks legit research.  Once again, opposing clashing mindsets are front and center on this issue because serious unbiased research dictates that one at least considers the evidence.  Something that most active debunkers are unwilling to do because it clashes with their world views or stances against anything UFO related.

There is a grain of truth in every conspiracy known to man, you just have to be intelligent enough to find it.

#93    JimOberg

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:26 AM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 22 July 2013 - 03:11 AM, said:

If I can play Devil's advocate for a moment then no one has ever debunked the memo reading method either.  Debunkers are guilty of being oblivious because the guy who deciphered the Ramey memo was an expert in his field.  He certainly knows more than the average poster on an internet forum who mocks legit research. .....

Please show us proof of that beyond his own claims.

When/where was this method ever validated by double-blind testing?

Onus probandi -- it's not up to a skeptic to disprove a claimed method that has never been proved. Basic.


#94    conspiracy buff

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 12:53 AM

View PostJimOberg, on 22 July 2013 - 04:26 AM, said:

Please show us proof of that beyond his own claims.

When/where was this method ever validated by double-blind testing?

Onus probandi -- it's not up to a skeptic to disprove a claimed method that has never been proved. Basic.

Once again, when/where was the method ever debunked by double-blind testing?  So you are pretty much disregarding a memo which has been theorized as the holy grail of ufology in the very same hands of the man who has long been suspected as the man in charge of the govt's UFO cover-up?  What are the odds that a memo with words like "crash victims" and "disk" would be deciphered in a memo in the hands of Ramey?  Therein lies the paradox between skeptics and believers; believers cannot be disproven and skeptics cannot be convinced.  It is the clashing of mindsets that has been ever since ufology became a serious field and that will not soon change.  Now I'm no mathematician but it seems astronomically overwhelming as far as odds that the Ramey Memo refers to the very event that skeptics dismiss as nonsense.  Which in my estimation is paramount to burying your head in the sand and pretending nothing ever happened.  I do not believe the military would have went to such lengths to explain the Roswell story away if it had been of no importance to them or not a legit case of UFO/phenomena.  They have changed their story on the event so many times that their credibility is less than zero & anyone with one iota of common sense would see there is more to the story.  That's not even including the other rumored meetings between past presidents and alien races or the trace cases in which tangible disturbances are left behind indicating something landed and took off.  Also not including the numerous cases of "alien abduction" in which people not connected all over the planet have detailed similar cases and descriptions of beings which have been consistent throughout the last 80 years or so.

To simply state the obvious, there is something going on in regards to the alien & UFO topic and most skeptics are content to pick out the easiest cases to explain away while avoiding the more difficult ones.  As I alluded to before, healthy skeptics are at least willing to consider the possibility whereas active debunkers are unwilling to let the evidence speak for itself and simply want to explain events away because it clashes with their total world view and personal bias.  Care to take a guess where you land, Mr. Oberg?

Edited by conspiracy buff, 23 July 2013 - 12:54 AM.

There is a grain of truth in every conspiracy known to man, you just have to be intelligent enough to find it.

#95    Grey Area

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 11:06 AM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 23 July 2013 - 12:53 AM, said:


To simply state the obvious, there is something going on in regards to the alien & UFO topic and most skeptics are content to pick out the easiest cases to explain away while avoiding the more difficult ones.  


And there lies part of the problem.  If a known skeptic goes on record stating that they are unsure about a particular case, that instantly becomes some form of proof.  The whole area of UFOlogy has become some strange bastardized religious faith where the only proof that you need is faith itself.  Is it any wonder skeptics wont go near the genuinely unexplainable cases?

But regardless of whether skeptics dodge particular cases or not, the mere fact that there are skeptics dictates that even the most prolific cases provide little of no convicing arguments of ET existance and visitation.

But in my opinion it all boils down to common sense, and an understanding of human nature.  The whole field has become really unhealthy.  Proffessionally I am a Social Worker, who works with Children.  I could actually open an X-Files of Social Services with some the cases I have dealt with, from kids faking demonic possession in order to get what they want, a lad who believed that deuteronomy was written for him and believed there were personal messages to him exclusively.  But the corker is the child I worked with who genuinely believed they were being abducted by aliens (They werent, they had a significant Mental Illness).  My point here is that the vast majority of the ET camp are impressionable teens and early twenties, who lack the psychological maturity and world experience that would enable them to rationalise claims, ask most skeptics and I bet they will tell you that as children and maybe even young adults they believed in Alien Visitation.  I remember as a child reading books on UFO's in fear, fear that aliens were going to come and take me away, and also a really unhealthy caution of anyone wearing a dark suit, and I would further add that a lot of the sites on the internet that preach Alien conspiracy drivel are at the least guilty of borderline child exploitation and at the worst guilty of Child abuse.  It's a nighmare passive aggressive situation.  

The vast majority of UFO cases simply require a dash of common sense.  Take Roswell as the classic example.  Clearly something happened at Roswell, clearly the DOD didnt want the truth to be known, that is all but indisputable.  Now apply a little perspective.  The largest war and arms race in the history of mankind had just been concluded, the cold war was just beginning.  Money was being thrown at scientists of all nationalities to participate in defense projects.  Is a crashed Alien spacecraft really the most logical answer to what happened there?

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#96    Midyin

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 02:25 PM

View PostSlave2Fate, on 21 July 2013 - 08:49 PM, said:



There is also a difference between WANTING to believe and knowing. I'd prefer to know. As such the evidence for alien visitation is sorely lacking.

Yeah, but these aren't just three names I pulled out my ass.

I'm to citing David Ike or Alex Jones here. Dmitry Medeved, Paul Hellyer, and Edger Mitchell are actually respected(AKA NOT TINFOIL HAT QUACKS)...

Dmitry Medeved.= Russian Prime Misnsister, Paul Hellyer = Ex-Minister of defense(Canada), And now Edger Mitchell an American Astronaut. You don't get to these positions in life by being stupid nieve or a superstitious paranoid consperacy theorist..

Edited by Midyin, 23 July 2013 - 02:27 PM.


#97    JimOberg

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 04:53 PM

View PostMidyin, on 23 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Dmitry Medeved.= Russian Prime Misnsister, Paul Hellyer = Ex-Minister of defense(Canada), And now Edger Mitchell an American Astronaut. You don't get to these positions in life by being stupid nieve or a superstitious paranoid consperacy theorist..

I take it, then, that when Apollo-15 moon walker Jim Irwin claimed he'd found proof of Noah's Ark, you were forced to admit it was true?


#98    JimOberg

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 04:56 PM

View PostMidyin, on 23 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

You don't get to these positions in life by being stupid nieve or a superstitious paranoid consperacy theorist..

I take it, then, that when astronaut Gordon Cooper disclosed amazing investment opportunities in a series of aerospace projects in the 1980s, you would have contributed your life savings? Put in your kids' college funds?  Mortgaged your home? Many people did -- to the tune of millions of dollars. What do you suppose happened to every penny, and why?


#99    Midyin

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 06:46 PM

Honestly Jim, I never heard either of those stories, but I'll be sure to google them. They sound comical... lol


#100    JimOberg

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 06:58 PM

View PostMidyin, on 23 July 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Honestly Jim, I never heard either of those stories, but I'll be sure to google them. They sound comical... lol

Let me know if you need links.

The point is, there is not a category of "officially annointed truth sayers" in our secular society -- we are all of us human, subject to error, and deserving of calibration and evaluation.

Mitchell is a sweet, imaginative, honest man who spent his life on the fringes of knowledge in the ESP field. His grand hopes, expressed forty years ago, have been dashed -- the things he was sure he would discover and prove, never happened, despite his sincere belief in their reality [his report on the results of his Apollo mission ESP experiment shows how wishing things to be true can still fail to prove them -- read it and see]. But i'm glad there were and are people like him willing to commit their lives and reputations to exploration.


#101    itsnotoutthere

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 07:13 PM

View PostMidyin, on 23 July 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

Yeah, but these aren't just three names I pulled out my ass.

I'm to citing David Ike or Alex Jones here. Dmitry Medeved, Paul Hellyer, and Edger Mitchell are actually respected(AKA NOT TINFOIL HAT QUACKS)...

Dmitry Medeved.= Russian Prime Misnsister, Paul Hellyer = Ex-Minister of defense(Canada), And now Edger Mitchell an American Astronaut. You don't get to these positions in life by being stupid nieve or a superstitious paranoid consperacy theorist..

Yes, this type of logic comes from the school of ..'why would a trained professional pilot lie about seeing a UFO?'  Implying that simply because somebody is a pilot they wouldn't tell a lie.  Tell that to the ex wife of any airline pilot who has had an affair with one of his stewardesses.

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#102    Slave2Fate

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 08:52 PM

View Postitsnotoutthere, on 23 July 2013 - 07:13 PM, said:

Yes, this type of logic comes from the school of ..'why would a trained professional pilot lie about seeing a UFO?'  Implying that simply because somebody is a pilot they wouldn't tell a lie.  Tell that to the ex wife of any airline pilot who has had an affair with one of his stewardesses.

It's all appeal to authority, which is a little ironic since the 'authority' of these witnesses is only ever assumed. Do any of them have degrees in exobiology or astrophysics or anything of the sort? Nope. So where does the presumed authority come from except granted by those who wish to use said witness as an authority? Pilots, doctors, servicemen, police and yes, even astronauts don't have the requisite training or experience to adequately determine if something 'unusual' or 'unknown' is actually extraterrestrial. Not to mention the fact that every one of those occupations have one important thing in common with everyone. They are human and are subject to human fallibility just as much as you or I. So no, I'm not going to accept testimony as the primary evidence for the ETH. It leaves way too many unanswered and unaccounted variables to be anything near conclusive or objective.

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#103    hacktorp

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:13 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 23 July 2013 - 04:53 PM, said:

I take it, then, that when Apollo-15 moon walker Jim Irwin claimed he'd found proof of Noah's Ark, you were forced to admit it was true?

Hmmm...was Irwin's claim supported by the separate testimonies of literally thousands of others from all walks of life including scientists, military, aerospace, government, and private citizens from around the globe?  You know, like Mitchell's?  If so, people would be foolish to reject it out of hand.

But it wasn't, and isn't.  Unlike Mitchell's.

Poor analogy; weak thesis.  Try again.


#104    JimOberg

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:29 PM

View Posthacktorp, on 23 July 2013 - 09:13 PM, said:

Hmmm...was Irwin's claim supported by the separate testimonies of literally thousands of others from all walks of life including scientists, military, aerospace, government, and private citizens from around the globe?  You know, like Mitchell's?  If so, people would be foolish to reject it out of hand.

But it wasn't, and isn't.  Unlike Mitchell's.

Poor analogy; weak thesis.  Try again.


What, exactly, is Mitchell testifying to having seen?

Nothing.

It's hearsay. And unsourced, to boot. "Somebody whose name I can't tell you once told me this, and so you should believe it's true."

Why is it presented here as evidence for anything?


#105    bee

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 09:40 PM

View PostJimOberg, on 23 July 2013 - 09:29 PM, said:

It's hearsay. And unsourced, to boot. "Somebody whose name I can't tell you once told me this, and so you should believe it's true."

You are paraphrasing the above as if this is what Mitchell would say.

From what I've seen he says what he says and people can take it or leave it.


I don't suppose he would give a damn whether you believe him or not.


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