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#1    Ghost Ship

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:02 PM

Hello. I am studying the Bible and would like for someone to elaborate on a passage for me. Thanks.

Gen 1:6-7

And God said let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky". And there was evening and there was morning- the second day.


#2    kannin

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:04 PM

im not exactly a bible supported but i have read it multiple times, always loved that passage though


#3    ouija ouija

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 05:37 PM

Sea - sky - source of rain :D

This ..... this is your life as it passed before other people's eyes.

italics don't really work in comic sans, do they? :/                                                                                      

#4    Ghost Ship

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 08:03 PM

Thanks Ouija. I will post more questions I am sure as I continue to read.


#5    Copen

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Posted 18 July 2013 - 09:37 PM

You would do better to use the KJV (and not the NKJV) as the NIV has taken liberties that actually change some important meanings from what is the KJV. Instead of "sky" try "firmament" like the KJV says. What is so hard about understanding that a sky or firmament was created that held water above and below in the seas? Bible says the earth was covered in deep water. The Spirit of God moved across the deep. In order to bring the earth up out of water, God took a lot of the water and put it above the firmament. That is why it never rained. The earth was covered like a hothouse canopy above the firmament which was holding the water until the flood of Noah. Up until that time there was only heavy dew or mist to water everything, plus some rivers- no rain.

When God created this firmament and put part of the water above it, it was the only day, Day 2, in which God did not look back at His accomplishment that day surveying it with a "Good!" Good for His purposes. That is because God knew that He was going to have to use this reservoir of water for a curve correction flood on a very perverse generation of people on earth. And He found no joy in knowing He was going to have to do that.

Read on - I love Genesis
God bless us all is my prayer

Edited by Copen, 18 July 2013 - 09:42 PM.


#6    Jor-el

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 09:03 PM

View PostTwin Peaks, on 18 July 2013 - 05:02 PM, said:

Hello. I am studying the Bible and would like for someone to elaborate on a passage for me. Thanks.

Gen 1:6-7

And God said let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water. So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky". And there was evening and there was morning- the second day.

Well let me be a little radical here and present you with a somewhat exotic view of the meaning of that text...


And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

IF we notice here, the light was not created, it simply became visible. This exactly what would happen if a layer of thick ash and cloud layer actually encircled the earth from pole to pole.  We could effectively state that there was an actual layer of mud in the  upper atomosphere. Over time as this layer settled and the cloud layer decreased, light would again become visible.

And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky."  And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

It seems this is a continued effect from Thick cloud cover that darkened the sky, with rain falling continuously. The rain stops as dissipation takes place thus now we have the sky visible where before nothing was visible. The witness would have seen the the cloud layer break up enough to distinguish the surface from the atmosphere and eventually he would have seen the waters beneath covering the land and a sky filled with solid cloud but with enough light to make things visible.

And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Notice now that the witnesses attention is on the surface of the earth but this time we have runoff from the water that has fallen as it gathers in the lower regions of land, lakes and eventually oceans are reformed, effectively creating seperatrion between sky, earth and water.


Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

I would draw your attention to the fact that nothing has been created at all yet. The only mention of a creative event is in verse 1 at this time, yet here we have plant life making a come back. As we all know, plant life is the 1st to recover from events of this nature especially if seeds are not destroyed in a worldwide extinction event.

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

I would add here that God had already made the stars the planets, the sun and the moon at this time, what we are seeing here is return of these lights to the sky as the cloud layer eventually dissipates enough for clear skies to become visible again. What we do see is that these celestial bodies were also affected by the catastroph that hit the earth. They needed to be restored to their specific places (their orbits) so that the seasons,climate and the tides could be restored on the earth.

And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Here for the 1st time since the 1st verse is a creative act mentioned again. Life is brought forth from the sea and the land, repopulating the earth with animal life of all kinds. So we actually see a distinction between animal life and plant life. Plant life can survive an ELE but animal life would be totally destroyed, thus the need for a recreation of that life. By recreation I am stating that God did not create new living things, but he used animal life that had already been present before the ELE (Extinction Level Event). Thus we are witnessing a restoration and not an actual initial creation as most people believe.

Posted Image


"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#7    Ghost Ship

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 11:14 AM

View PostJor-el, on 21 July 2013 - 09:03 PM, said:

Well let me be a little radical here and present you with a somewhat exotic view of the meaning of that text...


And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

IF we notice here, the light was not created, it simply became visible. This exactly what would happen if a layer of thick ash and cloud layer actually encircled the earth from pole to pole.  We could effectively state that there was an actual layer of mud in the  upper atomosphere. Over time as this layer settled and the cloud layer decreased, light would again become visible.

And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. God called the expanse "sky."  And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.

It seems this is a continued effect from Thick cloud cover that darkened the sky, with rain falling continuously. The rain stops as dissipation takes place thus now we have the sky visible where before nothing was visible. The witness would have seen the the cloud layer break up enough to distinguish the surface from the atmosphere and eventually he would have seen the waters beneath covering the land and a sky filled with solid cloud but with enough light to make things visible.

And God said, “Let the water under the sky be gathered to one place, and let dry ground appear.” And it was so. God called the dry ground “land,” and the gathered waters he called “seas.” And God saw that it was good.

Notice now that the witnesses attention is on the surface of the earth but this time we have runoff from the water that has fallen as it gathers in the lower regions of land, lakes and eventually oceans are reformed, effectively creating seperatrion between sky, earth and water.


Then God said, “Let the land produce vegetation: seed-bearing plants and trees on the land that bear fruit with seed in it, according to their various kinds.” And it was so. The land produced vegetation: plants bearing seed according to their kinds and trees bearing fruit with seed in it according to their kinds. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the third day.

I would draw your attention to the fact that nothing has been created at all yet. The only mention of a creative event is in verse 1 at this time, yet here we have plant life making a come back. As we all know, plant life is the 1st to recover from events of this nature especially if seeds are not destroyed in a worldwide extinction event.

And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years, and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so. God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars. God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth, to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the fourth day.

I would add here that God had already made the stars the planets, the sun and the moon at this time, what we are seeing here is return of these lights to the sky as the cloud layer eventually dissipates enough for clear skies to become visible again. What we do see is that these celestial bodies were also affected by the catastroph that hit the earth. They needed to be restored to their specific places (their orbits) so that the seasons,climate and the tides could be restored on the earth.

And God said, “Let the water teem with living creatures, and let birds fly above the earth across the vault of the sky.” So God created the great creatures of the sea and every living thing with which the water teems and that moves about in it, according to their kinds, and every winged bird according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. God blessed them and said, “Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the fifth day.

Here for the 1st time since the 1st verse is a creative act mentioned again. Life is brought forth from the sea and the land, repopulating the earth with animal life of all kinds. So we actually see a distinction between animal life and plant life. Plant life can survive an ELE but animal life would be totally destroyed, thus the need for a recreation of that life. By recreation I am stating that God did not create new living things, but he used animal life that had already been present before the ELE (Extinction Level Event). Thus we are witnessing a restoration and not an actual initial creation as most people believe.


A thorough examination. Thank you Jor-el. Is this your own interpretation? I don't have a personal interpretation of the Bible yet as I'm still new at even reading it. But an interpretation will start developing soon I bet.


#8    Jor-el

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 07:04 PM

View PostTwin Peaks, on 22 July 2013 - 11:14 AM, said:

A thorough examination. Thank you Jor-el. Is this your own interpretation? I don't have a personal interpretation of the Bible yet as I'm still new at even reading it. But an interpretation will start developing soon I bet.

Yes it is my personal interpretation but it is not original in that I did not come up with it, it is quite old being from the time of Scofield, although there are a few twists that are my own.

I personally believe that the Genesis account is not an account of the creation of the world or even the universe, it is an account of a reconstruction taken by God on the planet Earth after it was devastated by an event of some kind.

In effect it is the start of what I call the dispenstaion of mankind. Before us there were others.

Edited by Jor-el, 22 July 2013 - 07:18 PM.

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"Man is not the centre. God does not exist for the sake of man. Man does not exist for his own sake."

-C. S. Lewis


#9    Paranoid Android

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Posted 23 July 2013 - 03:30 AM

Hi Twin Peaks,

If you don't mind, I'll offer an alternative to Jor-el's answer.  It is also my personal interpretation, but like Jor-el it also is not something I came up with, it's based on the work of others.  In short, I don't actually think the account in Genesis 1 was intended as a scientifically proper account of how the world was created.  Rather this section of Genesis represents the oral tradition of the Hebrew people before the introduction of the "father" of the Hebrews, Abraham.  Being oral tradition, there were likely stories upon which these events are based, but over the course of millennia (or at the very least, centuries) the stories developed mythic properties that helped the Hebrews understand their place in the universe (this is not to be confused with the oral tradition of the Jews, such as the Mishnah, by this time oral tradition was passed down in formal schools that had many checks and balances to ensure the accuracy of the oral tradition).  In any case, just a couple of notes on the poetic structure of Creation that helps to point out the nature of oral tradition here:


Poetic structure of creation in Genesis 1

I'll try and summarise the overall structure of the creation story in Genesis 1.  In short, the text displays a very stylised account of creation.  The structure here is remarkably organised and breaks into three distinct sections - the first three days (1-3), the second three days (4-6), and the final day (7). Moreover, the first three days have a direct relationship to the second three days (Days 1 and 4; 2 and 5; 3 and 6).

Day 1 - God creates light
Day 4 - God creates source of light

Day 2 - God creates the sky and water
Day 5 - God creates fish and birds to live in the water and sky

Day 3 - God creates land
Day 6 - God creates animals (including humans) to live on the land

Day 7 - God rests.

The first three days provide the right conditions in which the actions of the second set of three days can be accomplished, in sequential order. The light is made, and then the source of the light is made on the fourth day. The living conditions for birds and fish are made, and then birds and fish are created on day five. The living conditions for land animals is created, and then on the sixth day the land animals (including humans) are made.  This is a poetic device used in Hebrew poetry called Parallelism (link).  In context of your question in the first post, when you are focusing only on separating the expanse between the waters below and the waters above, you're looking at how the two waters of sky and ocean were separated.  This provided the living conditions for the birds in the sky and the fish in the sea that came about on day 5 (Genesis 1:20-23).  If you were only looking at those verses then your answer is just found here.  If you want a broader look at Genesis 1, read on.

So in any case, back to the overall structure of Creation - the first point of note is that the sun was made only after the light came to exist. This is then reinforced by the repetition at the end of each day which stated, "And there was evening and there was morning, the nth day". Without a sun or moon, evening and mornings do not exist.  But they do provide a very good structural basis for poetry - the repetition of the phrase, "And there was evening and there was morning", sets a good touchstone to separate each day of creation – a form of micro-resolution at the end of each day, leading into the next section.  While it is true that light can come from sources other than the sun, the author's intentions are clear – day and night are created, evening and morning play prominent roles that do not change even when the sun is created, and light is brought forth.

The second point I would like to raise centres on the purpose of the seventh day in this poetic narrative.  So far, each day ends with an act of creation - something tangible and/or physical is made (light, water, land, etc).  These are physical things, compared to the seventh day which focuses back to God. It is appropriate that these happen on the sixth and seventh days, which are often contrasted in Hebrew poetry to refer to what is human and imperfect compared to what is God-centred and perfect (Source).  In this light, the author ends Genesis 1 not on the sixth day as would be representative of mankind in Hebrew culture, but instead on the seventh day, as symbolically represented of God's perfection/completion. How unfulfilling it would be for the Hebrews to start a book that is written all about God, but ends the creation with a number understood to represent man.  

As noted, the purpose of Genesis 1-11 was a written form of their oral tradition, spanning generations of people to draw a theological link from creation to the person of Abraham in Genesis 12, who later became the father of the Hebrew people.  But just to extend on this a little, I wanted to raised an issue about the culture in which this text is written.  Specifically I wanted to examine the ways that the gods of other nation's were said to have created the world.  Many of them revolve around battles between gods, and the earth being created from the spilled guts of the vanquished god.  The Babylonian God Marduk, for example, is said to have split the goddess Tiamat in two, with one half of her separated to form the heavens, and the other half forming the land (Source).  Marduk then was required to create humans to labour and work, because gods were not meant to "work".  Creation in Genesis 1 was written in direct opposition to these stories.  God created simply by the power of his words. No magic, no incantations, battles, or rites of passage that are so common in the creation narratives of other cultures. To quote the New Bible Dictionary (21st Century Edition):

"Genesis is implicitly rejecting other views of the gods and their relationship with the world. Here we have no story of how gods fought, married and bore children; there is but one God, beyond time and sex, who was there in the beginning. He created all things, even the sun, moon and stars, which other people often held to be gods in their own right. He required no magic to do this; his word was sufficient by itself."
~ New Bible Commentary, 21st Century Edition. p59


God then created mankind, not to slave and work, as was the case with Marduk, but in order to be God's special creation.  In short, the primary intention of the creation narrative is not an historical or scientific approach, but a narrative set in direct opposition to the narratives presented by the other nations contemporary to the Ancient Hebrews.

It would be my contention that the early chapters of Genesis (chapters 1-11) are written as a theological discourse on the nature of God, and its relationship to its creation, rather than a literal account of what God did and how he did it.  You can read a more detailed version of this comment in a post I made about a year ago - Here.  It's more detailed because it expands to deal with the whole of Genesis 1-11, whereas I was focusing my comments solely on Creation in chapter 1.  I hope you find it helpful :tu:

~ Regards, PA

Edited by Paranoid Android, 23 July 2013 - 03:38 AM.

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