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Motor City going down.


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#76    danielost

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Posted 20 July 2013 - 11:19 PM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 20 July 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:


Conversely, paying someone $10 an hour to put lug nuts on a wheel means noone wants, or can live on the wages from, that job.

Your not seeing the whole picture. In the year 1900, the normal wage was one doller a day.  Rent was five dollers a month.  Today you got around one thousand a month and pay rent around five hundred a month.  What changed two things wages went up and taxes went up.  When minimum wage is forced up everyone is directly or indirctly involved.  First everyone who was making more than that just got a pay cut and prices go up to pay for it.=c

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#77    Sir Wearer of Hats

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 12:55 AM

So you're saying instead of having to work five days to pay the rent, you have to work half the month and that's somehow the fault of people being paid a unionised wage.
What's your solution? Stop paying a unionised wage and hope everything goes down in price?

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#78    Yamato

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 01:21 AM

The automaker bailouts worked!  

Congratulations, red and blue teams!  

Posted Image

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#79    danielost

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 05:21 AM

The auto bailout failed. The government loaned gm and chrysler money.  The reason for this was to keep them from going bankrupt or selling themselves.  Gm went bankrupt two months later and sold half the company, fail.  Chrsler sold they whole company, failed.  Ford did not take the bailout, they survived whole, a win.  The only company that survived in whole did what romney said they should.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
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There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#80    DieChecker

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:47 PM

View PostSir Wearer of Hats, on 20 July 2013 - 11:04 PM, said:

Conversely, paying someone $10 an hour to put lug nuts on a wheel means noone wants, or can live on the wages from, that job.
$10 an hour could BE a living wage in many places. That property in Detroit skyrocketed before the Fall and that cost of living was high, does not necessarily demand that wages increase. If demand slumps, and wages remain level, then prices will fall. Properties will become cheaper, and cost of living will decrease.

The problem with Unions is that they are paying twice the going rate for a job that a non-union shop would pay. So when car companies open another plant in Kentucky or Tennessee, and pay those workers $20 a hour, they are saving the company money because they don't have to pay $40 an hour.

UAW workers were getting MUCH more then a living wage. Union members would have 3 cars, a snowmobile, a boat, a hot tube, in ground pool, giant freezer in garage...etc... Plus live in a $400,000 home. That is NOT Mr Joe Average, that (For a basically uneducated union member) is Heaven. If the UAW had cut back on wages, the industry could have been saved, but that was politically not going to happen, and the UAW was clear that they would rather see factories close then cut back. And so factories closed.

http://finance.townh...tingy/page/full

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“The [GM] deal also will include creative ways to cut GM's hourly labor costs,” writes the AP. “GM pays around $56 per hour including wages and benefits, which is less than what Ford pays but far higher than other companies like Chrysler and Hyundai Motor Co.” Ford pays $58 per hour.

$58 an hour is $120,000 a year. That would seem to me to be more then a living wage, that is an AWESOME wage.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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#81    danielost

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Posted 21 July 2013 - 11:55 PM

That's 120,000 before taxes.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
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#82    DieChecker

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 12:03 AM

Just read this AP article....
http://www.oregonliv...est_us_cit.html

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He laid out his plans in June meetings with debt holders, in which his team warned there was a 50-50 chance of a bankruptcy filing. Some creditors were asked to take about 10 cents on the dollar of what the city owed them. Underfunded pension claims would have received less than the 10 cents on the dollar under that plan.
This is rough, but it there is bankruptsy, they get nothing...

Quote

Orr's team of financial experts put together said that proposal was Detroit's one shot to permanently fix its fiscal problems. The team said Detroit was defaulting on about $2.5 billion in unsecured debt to "conserve cash" for police, fire and other services.
Ouch!!.... $2.5 billion...

http://www.oregonliv...uto_troubl.html

Quote

"What happened in Detroit is not particularly distinct," said Kevin Boyle, a history professor at Northwestern University who has written extensively about his hometown. "Most Midwest cities had white flight and segregation. But Detroit had it more intensely. Most cities had deindustrialization. Detroit had it more intensely."
I'm not sure what segregation has to do with this, but obviously the White Flight took the people who Paid into the system out of the equation, while those who drew out of the government became a bigger and bigger percentage of the population.

I would ask... Who can blame them? Should the formerly well off whites have stayed and did what they could to keep paying into the system to support those who Can Not? I'd say that idea is ridiculous.

Quote

"I think it (the fiscal disaster) was inevitable because the politicians in Detroit were always knocking the can forward, not confronting the issues, buying off public employees by increasing their pensions," said Daniel Okrent, a Detroit native who wrote a Time magazine cover story on the city in 2009. "They were always kind of confronting the impending crisis by trying to make it the next guy's crisis."
Pure democrat politics, IMHO. Throw money at people and keep encouraging them to vote for you.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

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Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#83    DieChecker

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 12:08 AM

View Postdanielost, on 21 July 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

That's 120,000 before taxes.
True, but you don't believe that you need even 90k or 80k to have a living wage in Detroit do you?

Median income is 50k in the US right now. The average in Michigan is 45k. So a UAW union member (On average) would be making about 2 1/2 to 3 times what the average Joe might be making.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#84    danielost

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 12:13 AM

You both have it wrong.  This is not the doings of the people rich or poor.  This is the fault of the democratic government over spending and the city unions demanding more and more wages, the tax payer will pay for it.

There used to be a need for unions, but we now have laws to covor what we needed unions for.  That need is worker safety.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#85    seaturtlehorsesnake

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 12:27 AM

man, if there's one thing i've learned from this, it's that there's a hell of a lot of people who never lived in detroit, have never been to detroit, and who know nothing about the history of detroit who are really happy to pretend that they do.

both my grandfathers were uaw, and worked for GM for about forty years each. never saw any 400k houses myself, or pools, or any of that other nonsense. we did get some pretty nice bikes from police auctions, though!


#86    danielost

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 01:45 AM

That is probable due to the tax rate.  Your grandfather didn't much in deductions, so he paid around thirty percent in taxes plus state,and local taxes.  Your grndfather would by one of the rich under obama.

I am a mormon.  If I don't use mormons believe, those my beliefs only.
I do not go to church haven't for thirty years.
There are other mormons on this site. So if I have misspoken about the beliefs. I welcome their input.
I am not perfect and never will be. I do strive to be true to myself. I do my best to stay true to the mormon faith. Thank for careing and if you don't peace be with you.

#87    DieChecker

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Posted 22 July 2013 - 04:39 AM

View Postpatagonianhorsesnake, on 22 July 2013 - 12:27 AM, said:

man, if there's one thing i've learned from this, it's that there's a hell of a lot of people who never lived in detroit, have never been to detroit, and who know nothing about the history of detroit who are really happy to pretend that they do.

both my grandfathers were uaw, and worked for GM for about forty years each. never saw any 400k houses myself, or pools, or any of that other nonsense. we did get some pretty nice bikes from police auctions, though!
Hey, those are "average pay rates" that are sourced. If your grandfathers never got to that payrate, that speaks more to their shop steward. They should have been well off.

Do you think if you lived in Detroit today, and made $120,000 a year, that you would be "Well Off", or simply making a "Living Wage"?

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#88    Harte

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 06:10 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 19 July 2013 - 06:35 PM, said:

From a neutral standpoint? Bush cannot be blamed enough, but that is that past. I would like to see what anybody has to say regarding the future...
Mr. McGuire: I want to say one word to you. Just one word. Benjamin: Yes, sir. Mr. McGuire: Are you listening? Benjamin: Yes, I am. Mr. McGuire: Plastics. Benjamin: Exactly how do you mean? Mr. McGuire: There's a great future in plastics. Think about it. Will you think about it?

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#89    Harte

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Posted 27 July 2013 - 08:02 PM

View PostRavenHawk, on 20 July 2013 - 08:34 PM, said:

There was no labor shortage but they did price themselves out of a job.  

Let us PLEASE not forget that they were making some of the shittiest cars on Earth as well.  With the possible exception of the Yugo.

US automakers never outsourced their labor by and large.  They simply couldn't sell the turdage coming off their assembly lines. What happened is foreign car makers came here and opened auto plants that made cars that were worth buying, and paid their workers "only" about $25 per hour to start.

The city of Detroit, on the other hand, is the party responsible for its own bankruptcy.  Not the automakers; though their complacency certainly played a part - at least in setting the stage.

Harte

I've consulted all the sages I could find in yellow pages but there aren't many of them. - The Alan Parsons Project
Most people would die sooner than think; in fact, they do so. - Bertrand Russell
Ignorance is preferable to error; and he is less remote from the truth who believes nothing, than he who believes what is wrong. - Thomas Jefferson
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