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Eric Davis on scientists and UFOs


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#76    badeskov

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:11 PM

View Postsam_comm, on 28 July 2013 - 06:26 PM, said:

I hope you'll pardon me and all these witnesses if they do not subscribe to this simplistic but very inacurate explanation of what they saw and describe and what many footage shows.

Sadly, many pilots and others are fooled by Venus. Whether you like it or not, that is a fact. For instance, from this link:

Quote

On Jan. 14 of last year, an Air Canada pilot flying from Toronto to Zurich, Switzerland, woke up from a nap to see an alarming sight out the cockpit window: what appeared to be a flying object (presumably another plane) flying directly at him. The first officer alerted the pilot, who correctly identified the light and told him not to worry about it, but the first officer almost immediately saw a second set of lights and took evasive action, sending the jet into a steep, sudden dive that injured 16 people and almost resulted in a midair collision with another aircraft flying 1,000 feet lower.

It was a terrifying, bizarre event over the Atlantic Ocean, but what makes it even stranger is that, according to a new report from the Transportation Safety Board of Canada, the initial light that first officer saw was an optical illusion. He thought it was a UFO — quite literally, an unidentified object flying at the plane. Yet there was no aircraft, identified or otherwise: he had instead seen reflected sunlight from the planet Venus. (The second set of lights—the ones that caused the evasive action—were actually from another aircraft the pilot mistakenly believed was on a collision course with the Air Canada flight.)

Emphasis mine.

This is just one example of this happening. The first officer took Venus for a UFO, whereas the Captain correctly identified it for what it was. Moreover, from same link:

Quote

Robert Sheaffer, a columnist for Skeptical Inquirer magazine and veteran UFO investigator, told Discovery News that "there is a long history of Venus (or some other bright planet or star) being perceived as something that it isn't. Even the UFO proponent Jacques Vallee wrote back in 1966 that "no single object has been misinterpreted as a 'flying saucer' more often than the planet Venus."

In fact, Sheaffer noted, "During World War II, B-29 crews making night bombing raids in Japan reported being followed by a 'ball of fire' that turned out to be Venus. Since then, numerous police officers and pilots have made the same mistake, as did Jimmy Carter, who reported seeing a UFO back in 1969 that turned out to be in exactly the same place as Venus."

Emphasis mine. So, if I were you I would be a little careful with such statements and actually go through the literature on the subject matter before brushing off such Earthly explanations. That said, nobody is claiming that Venus is the culprit in every sighting, it is a mishmash of different causes.

Quote

Unfortunately, that is not true of all cases. There remains a small percentage of physiscal traces which have not even been identified and that should not be negligable. Ground marking and electromagnetic effect after an allegeded close encounter do not always if not often find a natural explanation. But I am not saying that it must be a spacecraft coming from another planet. It is but one hypothesis among others. It appears nonethless in some cases, to be an unknown phenomenon.

Please do list a few cases with physical traces that have not been identified.

Quote

The null hypothesis is clearly what appears to me to be a denial. Even though I respect your opinion and that of others who share this view I think it is quite narrow-minded and overlooking evidences and patterns of a phenomenon which is worldwide and not from yesterday.

No, it is a known fact for those that knows how science works. There is simply nothing whatsoever to work with, hence only the kooks and charlatans are left.

Quote

But that is not what you mentionned above:

''That's true. There were dozens of soil samples collected by scientists in the 50's and 60's. They all had natural explanations. Case closed.''

Which mean either you were overlooking on purpose the physical traces cases (which most have nothing to do with abductions or invitations in a craft) and took place the following decades or you simply were not aware of them.

Again, please list a few of the unexplained physical trace cases.

Quote

Anyway, as for people who claimed to have been aboard ship in the 50' and 60', frauds and psychological issues is to be considered up to the 21st century. That is why the data have to be carefully gathered and for the investigators it's important to have a skeptical approach towards these claims.

To quote a catalogue article by Ted Phillips:

This summary is based on only a partial listing of the catalogue as many of Phillips' cases appear extremely dubious in nature. Cases from the early 1950s are particularly unreliable because many of the early UFO books were written by people who automatically assumed that they were describing encounters with alien spaceships. Jenny Randles tells me that cases reported in the "hysterical" Spanish and South American media should be treated even more skeptically because these cases were often complete fabrications! Furthermore many of the early cases have no proper source, e.g. Phillips quotes Vallee describing cases which appear to have been anecdotally reported to Vallee. This means that we often have no idea whether or not a specific case was investigated by anyone, let alone whether it was a contemporary investigation or whether the investigator was in any sense someone capable of undertaking an objective scientific evaluation.

source: http://www.ufocasebo...tracecases.html

Precisely, this has to be done under controlled conditions, which is simply impossible. And whether you like it or not, witness testimony carry no weight whatsoever in scientific circles, only hard data matters. I can claim I have an experiment that have photons travel faster than light, but unless I have hard data to show for my claims, I have nothing. Same with UFOlogy, if science is to get involved, we need hard data obtained under controller conditions, which is an impossibility as it currently stands. If you disagree, I would very much like to hear how you suggest that be done.

Cheers,
Badeskov

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#77    S2F

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 09:27 PM

View Postbadeskov, on 28 July 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

I would very much like to hear how you suggest that be done.

Take a page out of a fisherman's book and cast a huge net. Then you only have to sort through the various birds and terrestrial aircraft until you can put your hands on a UFO. Easy Peasy. :lol: :tu:

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You know... the plural of ``anecdote'' is not ``data''. Similarly, the plural of ``random fact'' is not ``mystical symbolism''. -sepulchrave


#78    conspiracy buff

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:12 PM

Claiming that the planet Venus is responsible for any UFO sighting is ludicrous.  That would be stationary in appearance and would not make maneuvers like the reported unidentified crafts have been alleged to.  We can also cross off debunker favorites like temperature inversions, weather balloons, or lenticular clouds because none of those things can make sudden maneuvers nor can they accelerate and decelerate like witnesses have reported in some cases.  To be quite honest, some of those excuses are even more unbelievable than most UFO claims themselves and is yet another classic example of the double standards debunkers are guilty of employing in their quest to simply explain things away without forethought to how outrageous it actually is upon closer inspection.

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#79    Draco20

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 04:27 AM

View Postbadeskov, on 28 July 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

Sadly, many pilots and others are fooled by Venus. Whether you like it or not, that is a fact. For instance, from this link:

Emphasis mine.

This is just one example of this happening. The first officer took Venus for a UFO, whereas the Captain correctly identified it for what it was. Moreover, from same link:

Emphasis mine. So, if I were you I would be a little careful with such statements and actually go through the literature on the subject matter before brushing off such Earthly explanations. That said, nobody is claiming that Venus is the culprit in every sighting, it is a mishmash of different causes.

I know that Venus was and still is the favorite explanation of misinterpretation used for the Null Hypothesis. Just like some UFO accounts were exagerated and sometimes complete fabric of lies this explanation was used excessively as a way to dismiss the phenomenon. I do not agree with Scowl's statement in which all UFO sightings can be attritubed to this planet. This is an unfit and inacurate explanation for most description of UFO sightings. That said, I wouldn't necesserely say it's a mishmash of different causes but rather a mishmash of different circumstances.

View Postbadeskov, on 28 July 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

No, it is a known fact for those that knows how science works. There is simply nothing whatsoever to work with, hence only the kooks and charlatans are left.
Again, please list a few of the unexplained physical trace cases.

I think it is unfair and irrespectful for those few physicists and astronomers who find a real interest in this phenomenon to suggest that they do not know how science works...
I've posted some links above and will post some others for you if you care at all in which many cases of physcial traces are described. Again, I think it is important to mention that in some cases scientists have put forward hypothesises about these physcial traces but have not been able to prove them. So, if you're satisfied by their explanations, this is your choices but other may not and I don't see why should they be treated with scorn. They have the right to suggest otherwise.

http://www.karenlyst...om/ufoland.html

http://www.angelfire...r/topcases.html

http://www.ufoeviden...calevidence.htm

http://www.project19...kbtrace0505.htm

http://www.noufors.c...cal_traces.html

http://www.abovetops...hread461414/pg1

Have a good read. :)




View Postbadeskov, on 28 July 2013 - 09:11 PM, said:

Precisely, this has to be done under controlled conditions, which is simply impossible. And whether you like it or not, witness testimony carry no weight whatsoever in scientific circles, only hard data matters. I can claim I have an experiment that have photons travel faster than light, but unless I have hard data to show for my claims, I have nothing. Same with UFOlogy, if science is to get involved, we need hard data obtained under controller conditions, which is an impossibility as it currently stands. If you disagree, I would very much like to hear how you suggest that be done.

I do not disagree with you altogether but to me, UFO accounts are evidences and a starting point. The nature of the phenomenon is mostly through peoples sightings and experiencing for centuries and worldwide. That is the core and should be a frame of reference. This is not about a handful of accounts which could all be lies and misinterpretations but a wide and consistant phenomenon which englobe all kind of people from all walks of life and not from a particular epoch. Very interesting footages have been caught by serious people who provide material evidences and mysterious traces on the grounds have been found following an alleged close encounter. I acknowledge that despite decades of study by Ufologists, it has reached a dead end but giving up for the reason that it is out of reach from our scientific tools today is not the way to go in my opinion even though I can understand the scientific dilemma.

Edited by sam_comm, 30 July 2013 - 04:52 AM.


#80    Lady Elaine

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 10:12 AM

15 years ago in Yuma Arizona, I was playing ball outside under the bright Sun, no clouds were in the sky. We began to go inside for water, I happened to look up & froze. I did not want to take my eyes off it as I called my brother & friend over to witness this as well, they looked up and froze to. Just up in the sky , not to high & not to far. We could see the whole thing in broad daylight and I studied it, for I did not know when it might take off. We all studied it & stared at it. Its was shaped like two saucer plates with one upside down on the other. It was a bright chromelike metallic shiny UFO. It was just siting there in the sky spinning like a top. I could easily see that it was spinning cause the sunlight was dancing on it as it spun. For at least 13 seconds it stayed there. Then it shot up into the sky at an angle and stopped again but this time it was suddenly so far away, we could barely see it by this time but after stopping again for about 8 seconds this time, it just shot up into the sky & disappeared. I remember it like yesterday, it is seared into my memory, every detail. I mean this thing was like a super shiny solid metal saucer shaped craft that was spinning in place. Amazing. UFO, it could be some sort of extra terrestrial entitys in there, or even a extremely advanced top secret government craft, I am not sure but the craft had to be extremely advanced & I am open to the truth whatever it may be. My brother saw same thing & feels same way. My friend was extremely religious and said it was a demon playing tricks. He knows what he saw, but that is how he rationalized it. He obviously didn't think it was possible to be our government as he went with demon. My brother & I are pretty darn sure somthing was in that craft that was not from our world as we know it , but we can not rule out a possible govt. craft. But if it were govt. They would have to be extremely super duper advanced in a top secret sense. As this was NO plane... So if the question is, Should scientist begin reserching if UFO's exist? it doesn't matter cause they do. All they can do is look at video & pictures like everyone else. They have no physical evidence they can touch & study. Unfortunately in this world of technology, some people like to create their own evidence for some reason. Which waters down the real sightings of somthing amazing & unknown. Who knows what was discovered during project blue book. One can not seriously trust the government. There is already study's going on everyday by those who are not related to the government & are looking for the truth in this matter. Scientist should not be afraid to believe in this possibility as long as they remain open to the truth, whatever is discovered. Those that would chastize somone for believing that ufo's exist & that they may possibly be ET's. Well, they are only proving they have closed minds & scientists should always have a mind open to the truth. There are eyewitness reports of ufo's before pictures, video & airplanes even existed. They saw somthing & so people still continue to see somthing. There is a fascinating truth mankind all over is seeking to find but we can not trust a government investigation, like blue book. Just gotta keep ur eyes open & hope for somthing extremely tangible to appear. Somthing is going on. It is good to hear scientists are starting to take notice & not be afraid to say, "Somthing is going on "


#81    ChrLzs

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 11:35 AM

View Postconspiracy buff, on 29 July 2013 - 12:12 PM, said:

Claiming that the planet Venus is responsible for any UFO sighting is ludicrous.
Which might be why no-one made that claim...  obviously if you have a reasonably accurate date/time/location of sighting it can be very easily eliminated (or included) as a possibility.  Can't really see the problem.

So, Hi Mr Strawman!  :st

BTW, anyone even vaguely familiar with simple geometry will know that if you are moving (walking, riding, on a car, bus or train) then objects that may be stationary in the sky will in fact move in relation to both your viewpoint and also near and far objects.  As you have no distance information for skyborne things, that means you will incorrectly attribute motion (of varying speeds/directions) to them.

Further, anyone even vaguely familiar with human perception will know that any object on a black or featureless background may appear to move about due to the way your eyes move around and the way your brain then processes the incoming information.

Some folks would have us believe that humans are just like good cameras and that if they are properly setup, you can *rely* on their perception right up to their operational limits.  Frankly, that is ignorant garbage, and is just one of the reasons that science never accepts anecdotal evidence by itself.

Mexican Air Force and the Canterell Oil Wells, anyone?  No, that wasn't Venus...

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#82    Sweetpumper

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Posted 15 August 2013 - 02:37 PM

View PostLady Elaine, on 15 August 2013 - 10:12 AM, said:

15 years ago in Yuma Arizona, I was playing ball outside under the bright Sun, no clouds were in the sky. We began to go inside for water, I happened to look up & froze. I did not want to take my eyes off it as I called my brother & friend over to witness this as well, they looked up and froze to. Just up in the sky , not to high & not to far. We could see the whole thing in broad daylight and I studied it, for I did not know when it might take off. We all studied it & stared at it. Its was shaped like two saucer plates with one upside down on the other. It was a bright chromelike metallic shiny UFO. It was just siting there in the sky spinning like a top. I could easily see that it was spinning cause the sunlight was dancing on it as it spun. For at least 13 seconds it stayed there. Then it shot up into the sky at an angle and stopped again but this time it was suddenly so far away, we could barely see it by this time but after stopping again for about 8 seconds this time, it just shot up into the sky & disappeared. I remember it like yesterday, it is seared into my memory, every detail. I mean this thing was like a super shiny solid metal saucer shaped craft that was spinning in place. Amazing. UFO, it could be some sort of extra terrestrial entitys in there, or even a extremely advanced top secret government craft, I am not sure but the craft had to be extremely advanced & I am open to the truth whatever it may be. My brother saw same thing & feels same way. My friend was extremely religious and said it was a demon playing tricks. He knows what he saw, but that is how he rationalized it. He obviously didn't think it was possible to be our government as he went with demon. My brother & I are pretty darn sure somthing was in that craft that was not from our world as we know it , but we can not rule out a possible govt. craft. But if it were govt. They would have to be extremely super duper advanced in a top secret sense. As this was NO plane... So if the question is, Should scientist begin reserching if UFO's exist? it doesn't matter cause they do. All they can do is look at video & pictures like everyone else. They have no physical evidence they can touch & study. Unfortunately in this world of technology, some people like to create their own evidence for some reason. Which waters down the real sightings of somthing amazing & unknown. Who knows what was discovered during project blue book. One can not seriously trust the government. There is already study's going on everyday by those who are not related to the government & are looking for the truth in this matter. Scientist should not be afraid to believe in this possibility as long as they remain open to the truth, whatever is discovered. Those that would chastize somone for believing that ufo's exist & that they may possibly be ET's. Well, they are only proving they have closed minds & scientists should always have a mind open to the truth. There are eyewitness reports of ufo's before pictures, video & airplanes even existed. They saw somthing & so people still continue to see somthing. There is a fascinating truth mankind all over is seeking to find but we can not trust a government investigation, like blue book. Just gotta keep ur eyes open & hope for somthing extremely tangible to appear. Somthing is going on. It is good to hear scientists are starting to take notice & not be afraid to say, "Somthing is going on "

Thanks for sharing that.

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