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Israeli MDs Harvesting Human Organs


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#16    shrooma

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:40 PM

View PostYamato, on 25 July 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:


I didn't ask who or when is going to cut the bodies up.  That has nothing to do with enforcement of a worldwide mandate.
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nobody would "enforce" such a mandate.
hospitals worldwide have systems set up to match organs with recipients.
to match donor organs with recipients in other countries already happens, doctors don't recognise borders where the saving of lives is concerned, and a world-wide 'opt-out' scheme wouldn't need "enforcement", it would be a natural extension of the system already in place, albeit on a larger scale. policing wouldn't be necessary, as is the case now, except to prevent abuses, but if the organs were readily available, in large quantities, this would exponentially reduce reasons for abuse by its very nature.
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   Hospitals aren't authority figures, they're doctors, nurses and staff to run the medical facilities.   Who is going to enforce the mandatory global gutting of peoples' bodies?
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you seem to misunderstand the term "enforce".
no-one "enforces" the removal of organs for donation at present, it is done as a matter of course in all hospitals worldwide, it's policy, and needs no "enforcement.
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Who's going to pay for this?
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who pays for it now?
are you saying donor organs AREN'T removed until someone signs a cheque?
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Hospitals are among the most bankrupted and subsidy-reliant organizations on the planet right now.
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that's due to the way Govts. allocate funding, and is not the issue here.
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   Who's going to pay to house the millions of organs being collected every day and where are they going to be housed?
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why would people pay?
there are thousands of facilities worldwide already in place to house organs waiting to be assigned, and most of them are empty, due to a global shortage of donors & organs, filling them up would cost nothing.
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  Who's going to set the global rules in how over 100 countries are going to administer this?
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have you heard of such things as medical councils? the WHO?
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    This is logistically unprecedented
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they said that about the worldwide vaccination programme to eradicate smallpox, which seemed to have been successful, despite the naysayers.
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and you've left every conceivable question unanswered for.
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i believe i've answered every question you've presented.
i couldn't answer them until you'd asked them, that's how our 'cause & effect' universe works Yam, so your statement makes no sense.
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Of course people benefit from the mandatory taking of estates that's why I asked.
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that isn't why you asked at all. you asked to try being facetious, which doesn't work on me.
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   How are you going to enforce that?
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enforce what?

   Who's going to pay for the global acquisition of life savings and estates?
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who mentioned anything about the global acquisition of life savings & estates? i certainly didn't, and if that's what you meant in your previous post, then you're either being remarkably facetious, or remarkably unreasonable.
there should, and would, never be a global system for that kind of acquisition, that facility already exists in each persons respective country's, and that is the best possible system that could be, suggesting a global system for the same thing is ludicrous.
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   Some people warn of the NWO
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from beneath their tin-foil hats.....
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and it seems silly at a glance
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remarkably.
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but when we've got people as ready to embrace the globalism as you,
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in the case of making organs for donation readily available to people worldwide?
you bet i'm for it. i can see the sense in the idea, even if you can't.
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(out of space- Cont. in next post.)


The only moral hazard that you can think of   Yes, that would be reprehensible and when you ignore the money necessary to pay for these globalist ideas of yours it's easy to think that everyone's going to behave just right.


The "NWO" doesn't exist in any formal capacity.  That hopefully won't change 50 or 250 years from now.   For now what smacks of the NWO to me are globalists who have no problem surrendering their estates, their relatives organs, whatever God knows who wants to some non-existent global authority to do with whatever they want.   You can't even administer your own ideas without an NWO because you can't mandate people to do things without force control.  Mandates require enforcement and you don't have a real answer for any mechanism of enforcement of this mandate.


Yes and that's why I asked you why stop there?   As it turns out, you don't stop there.   At this point, where do you stop?


Yes Israel is doing it.  Organs trafficking has been ongoing in Israel for many years before they even addressed it legally, and it continues to this day as we see in articles like this one.
http://en.wikipedia....gan_trafficking


After dropping this load off on the board, you're antisemitic too so we're even on the accusation/insult exchange.  I know, everyone who has something negative to say about Israel is antisemitic to you, but someone who defends the oppression of Semites is also antisemitic.  I didn't say they weren't voluntary, I said that exchanges to Palestinians are voluntary too.  If that's what makes the color of right, then let's have a single standard here good enough for both.

Putting words in quotes like "enforce" means you don't think that mandatory global laws need enforcement mechanisms.


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#17    shrooma

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:29 PM

View PostYamato, on 25 July 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:

Some people warn of the NWO and it seems silly at a glance but when we've got people as ready to embrace the globalism as you, these warnings start to make some sense.
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to people wearing tin-foil hats.
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The only moral hazard that you can think of
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can you think of another?
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Yes, that would be reprehensible
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agreed.
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and when you ignore the money necessary to pay for these globalist ideas of yours
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again, the question of money.
Yam, the removal of organs is already happening, everywhere, does it cost you money?
you seem to think that having a global system in place instead of a localised one will bankrupt the world, and that's silly.
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it's easy to think that everyone's going to behave just right.
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only fool would think that way.
but it would be a matter of supply & demand, when their is no shortage of something, theft becomes pointless.
you wouldn't try stealing air, would you?
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The "NWO" doesn't exist in any formal capacity.
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but you seem to think that a global 'opt-out' scheme for organ donorship would lead to one.
why?
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That hopefully won't change 50 or 250 years from now.
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when we all learn to live together as a planet, as a species, then something like a global council, a UN 2.0, will happen, but it won't be nefarious.
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For now what smacks of the NWO to me are globalists who have no problem surrendering their estates,
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which you suggested, no-one else.
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their relatives organs,
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so you're not an organ donor i take it? and you would object to anyone in your family who is?
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whatever God knows
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you're making ridiculous statements here Yam, to try & prove your point.
hyperbole won't work on me either.
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who wants to some non-existent global authority to do with whatever they want.
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you aren't making any sense.
you're the one concerned about a NWO, not me, i just think it would make sense if everyone in the world was an organ donor, no need to evoke paranoid ramblings of shadowy organisations.
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You can't even administer your own ideas without an NWO
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yes you can Yam, quite easily.
the system is in place already, on a localised level, Majestic 12 needn't get involved.
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because you can't mandate people to do things without force control.
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preposterous.
this isn't an orwellian world we live in, this is planet earth.
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  Mandates require enforcement and you don't have a real answer
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that's because you hadn't asked the question.
i'm not a telepath.
but now you HAVE asked, you'll find my answer above.
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for any mechanism of enforcement of this mandate.
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which doesn't need enforcement.
it doesn't now on a local level, and wouldn't on a larger scale.
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Yes and that's why I asked you why stop there?
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dunno,.too much caffeine perhaps?
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As it turns out, you don't stop there.
?
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At this point, where do you stop?
??
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Yes Israel is doing it.
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not as much as the chinese, which you never mention.
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  Organs trafficking has been ongoing in Israel for many years before they even addressed it legally, and it continues to this day
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as it does all over the world, but you only choose to highlight israel.
why?
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After dropping this load off on the board, you're antisemitic too
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and your reason for this observation is...?
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i have never once made a comment on any thread regarding israel, much less condemn them, so i'd ask you to justify your above statement if you would.
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so we're even on the accusation/insult exchange.
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nope, you're one ahead on that score.
you called me anti-semitic with no justification whatsoever, yet your anti-zionist views are there for all to see.
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I know, everyone who has something negative to say about Israel is antisemitic to you,
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no, they're not. some of them make very valid points, but you go out of your way to labour the point to where it becomes anti-semitic, there's a difference.
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but someone who defends the oppression of Semites is also antisemitic.
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that makes no sense whatsoever.
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I didn't say they weren't voluntary, I said that exchanges to Palestinians are voluntary too.
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your point being...?
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If that's what makes the color of right, then let's have a single standard here good enough for both.
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which is what a world-wide scheme would do, but you decry it?

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Putting words in quotes like "enforce" means you don't think that mandatory global laws need enforcement mechanisms.
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some do- some don't-
see above.

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#18    Yamato

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:03 AM

View Postshrooma, on 25 July 2013 - 01:40 PM, said:

to people wearing tin-foil hats.
To you.  Your childish trust in world government puts the hat on your own head.

Quote

can you think of another?
Dissent, violence, police states, terrorism, fraud, instability, revolution.  Your global mandate of worldwide theft unless someone signs some list managed by God knows who doesn't stand a chance of being implemented.  There's no authority to administer and enforce it.

Quote

the removal of organs is already happening, everywhere, does it cost you money?
Of course it does.   Everything costs money and the scheme you're suggesting is the biggest sham of other peoples' money I've ever heard of.   You're just spreading the shame from Israel to the rest of the world with this globalism.   Nothing is "free".   Nothing.

Quote

but you seem to think that a global 'opt-out' scheme for organ donorship would lead to one.
why?
No, because a global mandate would require one.  What global authority can force people to do this?   There is none in existence that can float your socialistic idealism.

Quote

when we all learn to live together as a planet, as a species, then something like a global council, a UN 2.0, will happen, but it won't be nefarious.

Yes and long before your magic rainbow world is created, medical science will be growing human organs in a jar so it'll never happen.  You're just blowing sunshine up our butts with no plan for executing it.

Quote

which you suggested, no-one else.
I asked about it and you endorsed it.  If you call that a suggestion think again.  I wouldn't suggest your globalism to anyone interested in individual rights and independent sovereignty.

Quote

so you're not an organ donor i take it? and you would object to anyone in your family who is?
It's an individual decision, it's not a central government's decision and it sure as hell isn't a global government decision.  Your trust in unknown future bureaucrats and halls of power is blind.

Quote

you're making ridiculous statements here Yam, to try & prove your point.
hyperbole won't work on me either.
It's not hyperbole.  You don't have a name or a clue who's going to administer this insanity and how.   UN 2.0?  Doesn't exist.  When it does, you can begin to start telling me why I should trust such an organization to mandate human dissection.   Stop chopping my replies up into sentence fragments and learn how to reply with more than one quote box.


Quote

you aren't making any sense.
you're the one concerned about a NWO, not me, i just think it would make sense if everyone in the world was an organ donor, no need to evoke paranoid ramblings of shadowy organisations.

I'm not concerned about the NWO.  I'm concerned about globalist minds like yours with infinite trust in powers you can't even begin to identify.  Your rose colored world doesn't exist.   It's naivety par excellence to deny that power corrupts like you're doing.

Quote

preposterous.
this isn't an orwellian world we live in, this is planet earth.
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Mandate requires force.   The essence of all government is force.   What planet do you live on?   You're smacking of utopian socialism which doesn't exist, never existed and never will.

Quote

not as much as the chinese, which you never mention.
Okay so Israel does it now.  I accept your retraction.  What I "never" do, you don't have a clue.

Quote

as it does all over the world, but you only choose to highlight israel.
why?
Because that is the topic of this discussion.   If you want to start a new thread and invite me to participate in it about some other country doing this shameful crap, I will weigh in.  Send me the invite and I'll be there.

Quote

you called me anti-semitic with no justification whatsoever, yet your anti-zionist views are there for all to see.
Of course I'm anti-Zionist.  If you're not, then your antisemitic.   Zionist policies oppress Semites.   Very simple.

Quote

no, they're not. some of them make very valid points, but you go out of your way to labour the point to where it becomes anti-semitic, there's a difference.
Whatever that is.   You can't find a single post from me that's antisemitic.

Quote

which is what a world-wide scheme would do, but you decry it?
I decry worldwide schemes because they require the centralization of power.  Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Papering over that proven fact with whatever globalist rhetoric you want isn't going to change what history has proven for thousands of years.   I'm decrying your globalism because it's sheer moral hazard.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#19    shrooma

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:35 AM

View PostYamato, on 26 July 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

Your childish
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childish? i'm not the one who's overly paranoid & fearful here Yam, that'd be you.
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trust in world government puts the hat on your own head.
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how many protest marches & rallys against the Govt. do you attend?
how many benefit gigs & festivals have you ever organised to help fund anti-govt. activities hmm?
i'd be a pretty s**t Anarchist if i "childishly" trusted the Govt.
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Dissent, violence, police states, terrorism, fraud, instability, revolution.
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that's your answer is it? i said that letting people die without trying to save them is morally wrong. you said 'that's one way you see it'. i said can you see another way?
and you come out with some insane, paranoid ramblings about how the world's turning into a fascist police state?!
you need to put the crack-pipe down or something man, you're breaking up.
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Your global mandate of worldwide theft
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do you always consider donations 'theft' then Yam?
how very charitable & public spirited towards your fellow man you are. there mustn't be a hungry bum within a mile of your street come christmas time.....
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unless someone signs some list managed by God knows who
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and therein lies the rub. "god knows who"
with your total breakdown of trustin anyone & anything, i'm suprised you aren't having yourself followed in case you do something you don't like.
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doesn't stand a chance of being implemented.
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and you know this do you, nostradamus?
been a social logistician long then?
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  There's no authority to administer and enforce it.
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which part of 'enforcement isn't necessary' are you having trouble understanding?
it's already happening. everywhere. without "enforcement". it just needs changing from a national, to a global scheme.
would you like me to speak slower?
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Of course it does.
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doctor's surgeries are full of people signing cheques to remove donor organs are they then Yam?
it costs money in the sense that doctors get paid a wage, they don't itemise everthing they do & bill the Govt. accordingly.
maybe i'm not talking slow enough....?
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Everything costs money
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air? birdsong? children's laughter? the scent of flowers on the breeze? rainbows?
maybe you're looking in all the wrong places Yam?
but with your totally negative worldview, that's hardly suprising.
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and the scheme you're suggesting is the biggest sham of other peoples' money I've ever heard of.
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that YOU'VE ever heard of, yes, but that's because you're hardly the most charitable soul, altruism personified, are you...?
and it wouldn't be "other people's money". unlike you, i have no fear of paying to save lives.
i pay £85 a week towards doctors & hospitals i never use, but SOMEBODY is using them, people who NEED them, and i wouldn't begrudge them that help for a second, with me not being a miserly curmudgeon.
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You're just spreading the shame from Israel to the rest of the world with this globalism.
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and that explains you to a tee.
hope you're proud of yourself.
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Nothing is "free". Nothing.
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*see above*
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"Get off your knees, the party's over."
.
-How do you sleep-
The Stone Roses.

#20    Yamato

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:23 AM

View Postshrooma, on 26 July 2013 - 08:35 AM, said:

There's no reason to globalize this issue anymore than there's an excuse to globalize any other.    You've exposed yourself as a globalist.  I'm not going to attack you for your opinions like you're attacking me.   You debase yourself by assaulting me as a person.  Three words for you to describe your rebuttals:  Impotent ad hominem.

I'm an extremely charitable soul.  Charity is giving freely.  You don't need mandates for that.   People already have the choice to donate organs.   I don't think you know what mandatory means.  

No, it doesn't need to change from a national charitable choice to a global mandate.  If Israel needs organs, it can make organ donation mandatory in its own country and cut them out of their own citizens' bodies.   Domestic demand would be satisfied by its own domestic supply many, many times over again.   Until that time, it's illegal and any criminals trafficking human organs should be prosecuted and punished for their crimes.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#21    shrooma

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 09:48 AM

View PostYamato, on 26 July 2013 - 07:03 AM, said:

No, because a global mandate would require one.  What global authority can force people to do this?
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force?
maybe i should speak s-l-o-w-e-r.
which part of "opt-out" is confusing you? it's a simple enough concept Yam, surely even you can grasp it if you try....
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There is none in existence that can float your socialistic idealism.
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given a choice between socialistic idealism, and raging paranoid fascism, i know which one i'd choose.
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Yes and long before your magic rainbow world is created, medical science will be growing human organs in a jar so it'll never happen.
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that technology won't be implimented for at least 100yrs, organ donorship has already been used for 50yrs, try & be a bit more rational with your responses.
i know that might be a tall order for you, rationalism, but give it a try, you might like it....?
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You're just blowing sunshine up our butts with no plan for executing it.
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that's because i'm not a social logistician, but there are plenty of people who are, i'm just someone who'd rather not let people die when there's a chance they can be saved.
that'll be that rationalism thing again....
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If you call that a suggestion think again.
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i think all the time Yam, all day if neeeds be.
maybe you should try it sometimes?
it's not difficult.
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I wouldn't suggest your globalism to anyone interested in individual rights and independent sovereignty.
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that's because you don't seem to understand the issue, your rampant paranoia is preventing you.
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It's an individual decision, it's not a central government's decision and it sure as hell isn't a global government decision.
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again, which part of "being able to opt out" or "organ donorship has been a reality for half a century" is giving you problems??
people in your world *shudder* may have a gun to their heads all the time, but up here on planet earth, we have a thing called 'freedom of choice', do you need that explaining too?
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Your trust in unknown future bureaucrats and halls of power is blind.
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"unknown future bureaucrats"??
now you're just being silly.
and paranoid.
again.
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It's not hyperbole.
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yes, it is.
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You don't have a name or a clue who's going to administer this insanity and how.
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that's because i'm not a social logistician, as you keep forcing me to repeat.
maybe if i say it over & over again enough times, it might start to sink in?
but i doubt it.
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UN 2.0?  Doesn't exist.
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didn't say it did.
i said it probably will in the future, when we learn to put our differences aside.
i know that would be anathemic to you, but it's something that us with at least a shred of rationality look forward to.
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When it does, you can begin to start telling me why I should trust such an organization to mandate human dissection.
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*sigh*
do you trust the organisations who've been doing the very same FOR THE LAST FIFTY YEARS?
talking slowly doesn't seem to be working, so i thought i'd try shouting.
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Stop chopping my replies up into sentence fragments
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no.
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learn how to reply with more than one quote box.
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impossible on my phone.
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I'm not concerned about the NWO.
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oh, but you are Yam.
overly concerned in fact.
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  I'm concerned about globalist minds like yours
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as opposed to insecure, untrusting ones like yours?
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with infinite trust in powers
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again, hyperbole.
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you can't even begin to identify.
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because they don't exist.
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Your rose colored world doesn't exist.
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and people like you will try their damnedest to make sure it never will.
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It's naivety par excellence to deny that power corrupts like you're doing.
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and it's even more naive of you to believe that's what i was suggesting.
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Mandate requires force.
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no. it doesn't.
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   The essence of all government is force.
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no. it isn't.
except to the truly paranoid & untrusting.
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What planet do you live on?
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earth.
thankfully not the same planet as you.
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You're smacking of utopian socialism which doesn't exist, never existed and never will.
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oh, how your faith in humanity is a shining beacon to us all Yam.
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Of course I'm anti-Zionist.  If you're not, then your antisemitic.   Zionist policies oppress Semites.   Very simple.
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Zionism- a movement started in the 19th century to combat growing anti-semitism.
Antisemitism- an irrational hatred of jews.
explain to me how your above statement makes even a modicum of sense?
but at least you're consistant Yam, as pretty much everything you've said doesn't make sense.
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I decry worldwide schemes because they require the centralization of power.
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and not because you're paranoid & afraid then?
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Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
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plagarism Yam?
that's weak, even for you.
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  Papering over that proven fact with whatever globalist rhetoric you want isn't going to change what history has proven for thousands of years.
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please, show me one example "from history" over "thousands of years", where someone has wielded "absolute power".
even god, who is the only (alleged) being to have "absolute power" only used it once, to bring about an (alleged) all-consuming deluge.
again, hyperbole doesn't work on me, it's far too easy to see through.
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I'm decrying your globalism because it's sheer moral hazard.
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in the eyes of the paranoid, maybe, but please explain to me how saving lives by implimenting a world-wide donor programme would be a "moral hazard"?
and speak as fast as you like Yam, i aren't the one who's terminally hard of understanding.

"Get off your knees, the party's over."
.
-How do you sleep-
The Stone Roses.

#22    Yamato

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:03 AM

View Postshrooma, on 26 July 2013 - 09:48 AM, said:

i aren't the one who's terminally hard of understanding.
You isn't?  ;)

Quote

please explain to me how saving lives by implimenting a world-wide donor programme would be a "moral hazard"?
I already did.  Power corrupts and absolute power (global power) corrupts absolutely (globally).  

Government can't do anything without money.  Sorry bud, but even your ideas of global governance aren't immune to that requirement.

Everyone should share everything and this wouldn't happen.   I can use that rhetorical dodge to excuse the crime on every topic of discussion involving fraud or theft that there is.  The only other thing you've contributed here besides that all purpose cop-out is ad-hominem directed at me.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#23    shrooma

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:25 AM

View PostYamato, on 26 July 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:


There's no reason to globalize this issue anymore than there's an excuse to globalize any other.
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the saving of lives is a global issue Yam, why do you think Govts. give billions each year to the starving people of the world.
a global organ donation scheme would be a natural extension of that.
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You've exposed yourself as a globalist.
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"exposed"?
you say 'globalist' to rhyme with 'scum'.
i'd rather see the bigger global picture than be insular.
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I'm not going to attack you for your opinions
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bit late for that sentiment Yam, you started when you typed the word "childish".
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like you're attacking me.
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in retaliation.
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You debase yourself by assaulting me as a person.
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but yet you're morally praiseworthy when you do it to others?
can you spell 'hypocrisy' Yam?
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Three words for you to describe your rebuttals:  Impotent ad hominem.
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the fact you can't counter my rebuttals coherently, with a well-founded argument based on fact would prove otherwise.
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I'm an extremely charitable soul.
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as your rampant anti-zionism proves.
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Charity is giving freely.
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that isn't in dispute. that's why organ donors are called 'donors', not 'theft victims'
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  You don't need mandates for that.   People already have the choice to donate organs.
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but yet you seem to think that linking these schemes together to provide a worldwide database of organs & recipients is the work of satan or somesuch?
why?
afraid you'll go into hospital and come out with a jewish heart....?
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I don't think you know what mandatory means.
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yes. i do.
it means 'not having any way to opt-out'
when i made it quite clear from the first sentence onwards that opting out was an.., well..., option.
it's you that didn't seem to grasp that concept Yam, with your talk about 'gutting corpses' 'mandatory dissection' 'theft' and such.
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No, it doesn't need to change from a national charitable choice to a global mandate.
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why not? billions of people around the world have neither signed a donor card, nor carry one, making organ donorship mandatory, UNLESS YOU OPT OUT, would mean thatdoubt would be removed, and more lives would be saved.
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If Israel needs organs, it can make organ donation mandatory in its own country and cut them out of their own citizens' bodies.
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they do Yam, but their isn't enough.
if you could see past your (distinctly uncharitable) blind hate of the israelis, you'd be able to see that my idea is a good solution.
i'm sure that if the state of israel didn't exist, you'd be all for it, but your prejudices are making you lose your objectivity, and that's ALWAYS a bad thing.
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Domestic demand would be satisfied by its own domestic supply many, many times over again.
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there is a massive, worldwide shortage of organs available for transplant. thousands of children die each day because there simply aren't any organs for them. to imply that there is a glut, that there are "many, many times" more organs than needed is at best, ill-informed, and contemptable at worst.
why do you think that a worldwide black market exists for trafficking organs? because hospitals are awash with them?
please.
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Until that time, it's illegal and any criminals trafficking human organs should be prosecuted and punished for their crimes.
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that's the point of this thread, they WEREN'T criminals, they were doctors, and the organs WEREN'T stolen, they were given voluntarily, but because the doctors were from israel, and the organs were being given to jews, you stated foaming at the mouth.
that's racism whichever way you look at it.
hardly the most charitable of notions from a self-confessed "charitable person".
hypocrisy is a crime.


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The Stone Roses.

#24    shrooma

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 10:41 AM

View PostYamato, on 26 July 2013 - 10:03 AM, said:


You isn't?  ;)


I already did.  Power corrupts and absolute power (global power) corrupts absolutely (globally).
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no-one has "global power" Yam, not even the UN, who's about the closest thing we have to it, but the term "toothless tiger" has been applied to them so much it's lost its meaning.
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Government can't do anything without money.  Sorry bud, but even your ideas of global governance aren't immune to that requirement.
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why do you keep on insisting i'm making claims advocating a world government?!
in what way, shape, or form, could a world-wide database of organs & recipients take over the world??
we wouldn't be using SkyNet to hold the information!
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Everyone should share everything and this wouldn't happen.
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i didn't ask it to, just that everyone be an automatic donor unless they declare they're not instead of the other way round.
our country has had this scheme in place for years, and it works perfectly well, gun to the head not necessary.
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I can use that rhetorical dodge to excuse the crime on every topic of discussion involving fraud or theft that there is.
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it's not a rhetorical dodge, you just fail to understand it and twist my intention to fit your viewpoint.
at least i'm debating properly, showing you the flaws in your argument and using them against you, you're just making stuff up.
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  The only other thing you've contributed here besides that all purpose cop-out
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*sigh*
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is ad-hominem directed at me.
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and why would i do that Yam?
why, when i'm known for my humour, would i suddenly start attacking you?
answer is, i wouldn't, except in retaliation.
or maybe i just don't like racism.


"Get off your knees, the party's over."
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The Stone Roses.

#25    Yamato

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 11:12 AM

View Postshrooma, on 26 July 2013 - 10:41 AM, said:

no-one has "global power" Yam, not even the UN, who's about the closest thing we have to it, but the term "toothless tiger" has been applied to them so much it's lost its meaning.
And yet you used the UN as the example to explain how to administer your idea.

Quote

why do you keep on insisting i'm making claims advocating a world government?!
Because you're mandating something to be done worldwide.  You can't do that unless you have world government.

Quote

in what way, shape, or form, could a world-wide database of organs & recipients take over the world??
Exactly.  What does that mean?   I'm saying that in administering your globalist world of shiny happy people holding hands, there is too much room for fraud, corruption, abuse, conflict, violence, wrongful death, malpractice, terrorism, and all manner of moral hazards.  Having some international bureaucracy like the UN 2.0 enforcing the mandate of taking someone's organs out who didn't have the choice for a million different reasons not to opt-out is naive

Quote

i didn't ask it to, just that everyone be an automatic donor unless they declare they're not instead of the other way round.
our country has had this scheme in place for years, and it works perfectly well, gun to the head not necessary.
Maybe it would work for the countries like Israel who are notorious organ traffickers.  And maybe you should lead by example and export your surplus organs to the UN and show them what a great idea it is.  I'll keep my mandates on the most localized level possible thanks.  Voluntarily dealing with a doctor who's providing this kind of treatment at the expense of the center he works for is one thing.  Having unschooled bureaucrats from who knows where running it is a hazardous idea.

Quote

why, when i'm known for my humour, would i suddenly start attacking you?
answer is, i wouldn't, except in retaliation.
or maybe i just don't like racism.
Retaliation for what?  I don't believe I've ever said a word to you before this, before you started acting like you know me.  I'm Yamato.  Pleased to meet you.  And the last thing I am is antisemitic.

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#26    SCFan

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 01:32 PM

Just wanted to contribute my .02 here:

People have an objective opinion towards China, people can have an objective opinion towards president Obama, for examples.

It is definitely a God given freedom every one should enjoy.  But have an objective opinion towards Israel ... gets you labeled a "anti-semite".

To some, the ball doesn't play on an equal court. That is just flat-out demented and startling facist if you ask me.

It kinda reminds me of that piece of scripture in Revelations by which those who refuse to receive (those who chose to have an objective opinion towards...) the mark of the beast are ostracized from society, denied their rights, and beheaded.

Is the State of Israel in the future going to possess global thought- and speech- police (gustapo)? Or do they already do? I mean, really?!

Edited by B Jenkins, 26 July 2013 - 01:33 PM.

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#27    and then

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 02:52 PM

View PostB Jenkins, on 26 July 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

Just wanted to contribute my .02 here:

People have an objective opinion towards China, people can have an objective opinion towards president Obama, for examples.

It is definitely a God given freedom every one should enjoy.  But have an objective opinion towards Israel ... gets you labeled a "anti-semite".

To some, the ball doesn't play on an equal court. That is just flat-out demented and startling facist if you ask me.

It kinda reminds me of that piece of scripture in Revelations by which those who refuse to receive (those who chose to have an objective opinion towards...) the mark of the beast are ostracized from society, denied their rights, and beheaded.

Is the State of Israel in the future going to possess global thought- and speech- police (gustapo)? Or do they already do? I mean, really?!
When most of the "objective" opinions involve slander and libel then yeah...I guess people can have a legitimate problem with that.  The obvious purpose of the OP is to frame the idea that Israel is stealing organs from the poor or dispossessed and making money from the enterprise.  It's an elegant reshuffling of the blood libel AND the "Jews are money hungry" slanders....

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#28    Orcseeker

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:09 PM

View Postand then, on 26 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

When most of the "objective" opinions involve slander and libel then yeah...I guess people can have a legitimate problem with that.  The obvious purpose of the OP is to frame the idea that Israel is stealing organs from the poor or dispossessed and making money from the enterprise.  It's an elegant reshuffling of the blood libel AND the "Jews are money hungry" slanders....

I interpreted the article as exploiting the poor for invaluable body parts. The only thing I take the countries into account for is their wealth distribution where Israel in this instance clearly shadows these poorer countries. The thing that gets me though is seeing the rebuttal, "Oh, no one is forcing them to do it, it's their choice".

Pay some poor person from a different country something one there would consider a treasure chest of coins for an invaluable part of their body, then make more money off the people they are actually helping "jump the lines"  to the operating table.

Is that really ok?


#29    SCFan

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:11 PM

View Postand then, on 26 July 2013 - 02:52 PM, said:

When most of the "objective" opinions involve slander and libel then yeah...I guess people can have a legitimate problem with that.  The obvious purpose of the OP is to frame the idea that Israel is stealing organs from the poor or dispossessed and making money from the enterprise.  It's an elegant reshuffling of the blood libel AND the "Jews are money hungry" slanders....

I don't know, and then... have you ever googled or yahooed "Israel harvesting organs", "Israel harvesting organs from dead Palestinians without permission", etc?

"I charge thee in the sight of God, who giveth life to all things, and of Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed the good confession; that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: which in its own times he shall show, WHO IS THE BLESSED AND ONLY POTENTE, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS; who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen" (I Tim 6:13-16).

#30    and then

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 07:36 PM

View PostOrcseeker, on 26 July 2013 - 04:09 PM, said:

I interpreted the article as exploiting the poor for invaluable body parts. The only thing I take the countries into account for is their wealth distribution where Israel in this instance clearly shadows these poorer countries. The thing that gets me though is seeing the rebuttal, "Oh, no one is forcing them to do it, it's their choice".

Pay some poor person from a different country something one there would consider a treasure chest of coins for an invaluable part of their body, then make more money off the people they are actually helping "jump the lines"  to the operating table.

Is that really ok?
Frankly I find the idea of buying and selling human organs unseemly.  But it isn't illegal in most countries and the real point of the OP was to frame an ugly libel against Jews - as though they are the only ones who do such things.  Just keeping the propagandist as honest as I can....  As shrooma pointed out in a most rational way - if organ donation were mandatory unless a person signed an opt out clause then this industry would die a natural death anyway.  There would quickly be a surplus of organs.  It's about religious and deeply personal issues that people cling to and refuse to do what is rational.  Still, enough WOULD allow harvesting because they just don't care, that the problem could be solved.  I'd even take the idea a step further and give immediate family the right to veto the harvesting unless the individual had expressed a desire to donate prior to death.  It is a tragedy that thousands of perfectly good hearts, lungs, livers and kidneys are placed in a hole in the ground due to superstition and religion and worst of all - plain ignorance of there even being a demand.
Real people could be saved daily if an answer was found.  Mandatory decision making (which is all he called for) could make the difference in hundreds of thousands of lives.

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