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Israeli MDs Harvesting Human Organs


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#31    Yamato

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 11:06 AM

View PostB Jenkins, on 26 July 2013 - 01:32 PM, said:

It is definitely a God given freedom every one should enjoy.  But have an objective opinion towards Israel ... gets you labeled a "anti-semite".
Bullying.  Attack the person when the objectivity can't be dealt with, and all but rule out any possibility of fair discussion after that too, unfortunately.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
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"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
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#32    and then

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Posted 28 July 2013 - 03:54 PM

View PostYamato, on 28 July 2013 - 11:06 AM, said:

Bullying.  Attack the person when the objectivity can't be dealt with, and all but rule out any possibility of fair discussion after that too, unfortunately.
So expressing an alternative position to a stated premise is bullying?  Posting up a piece that is obviously meant to inflame against ONE group when they take part in a practice that is common in the world is an objective stance?  Got caught with your hand in the cookie jar Yam... no point shedding crocodile tears about it.

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#33    Orcseeker

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 02:31 AM

View Postand then, on 26 July 2013 - 07:36 PM, said:

Frankly I find the idea of buying and selling human organs unseemly.  But it isn't illegal in most countries and the real point of the OP was to frame an ugly libel against Jews - as though they are the only ones who do such things.  Just keeping the propagandist as honest as I can....  As shrooma pointed out in a most rational way - if organ donation were mandatory unless a person signed an opt out clause then this industry would die a natural death anyway.  There would quickly be a surplus of organs.  It's about religious and deeply personal issues that people cling to and refuse to do what is rational.  Still, enough WOULD allow harvesting because they just don't care, that the problem could be solved.  I'd even take the idea a step further and give immediate family the right to veto the harvesting unless the individual had expressed a desire to donate prior to death.  It is a tragedy that thousands of perfectly good hearts, lungs, livers and kidneys are placed in a hole in the ground due to superstition and religion and worst of all - plain ignorance of there even being a demand.
Real people could be saved daily if an answer was found.  Mandatory decision making (which is all he called for) could make the difference in hundreds of thousands of lives.
I honestly didn't get that impression from the OP. I am a registered organ donor myself. People's bodies will just rot in the ground or a fire or whatever sort of burial one chooses. The body will eventually give itself to something. So why not help save someone's life instead?

What I have a problem with is a wealthy country abusing their wealth to obtain an invaluable part of ones body in a severely disadvantaged country. It's the difference between being able to do it within your own country and exploiting another country simply due to differing economic and wealth distribution levels.


#34    Yamato

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:44 AM

View Postand then, on 28 July 2013 - 03:54 PM, said:

So expressing an alternative position to a stated premise is bullying?  Posting up a piece that is obviously meant to inflame against ONE group when they take part in a practice that is common in the world is an objective stance?  Got caught with your hand in the cookie jar Yam... no point shedding crocodile tears about it.
Accusing someone of being against someone for their ethnicity/religion is absurd and pathetic and completely unacceptable.   You should be ashamed of yourself and you owe me an apology for the many times you've used that term to describe me as a person.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#35    Yamato

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 04:57 AM

View PostOrcseeker, on 29 July 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

I honestly didn't get that impression from the OP. I am a registered organ donor myself. People's bodies will just rot in the ground or a fire or whatever sort of burial one chooses. The body will eventually give itself to something. So why not help save someone's life instead?

What I have a problem with is a wealthy country abusing their wealth to obtain an invaluable part of ones body in a severely disadvantaged country. It's the difference between being able to do it within your own country and exploiting another country simply due to differing economic and wealth distribution levels.
That's exactly what's wrong with it.   It's preying on starving, desperate people, not the altruistic heroes painted up by shrooma.   If, per shrooma, Israel just made organ donation mandatory (with an opt out), Israelis wouldn't need organs anymore, there would be a fresh local supply of them there at all times.   But shrooma blows this up into a worldwide issue, a utopian globe where everything is free and everybody so charitable and obedient, no enforcement is necessary.   And the reason why one travels on a tangent that long is to get the point of discussion off of Israel.  

The globe isn't trafficking organs; Israel is.   Chinese trafficking is no better than Israel's, and it's no excuse for Israel to do it.

One of the oldest and most classic Zionist rebuttals to Israel's crimes is "No, don't look at Israel, look at these other crimes over here that someone else is doing!".   And it's hard to steer the discussion back on topic when doing so is "antisemitic".   Yes it's a critical article on Israel.   Israel's policies are inhuman; it is no example of something to emulate in the world.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#36    acidhead

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:49 AM

In a free society only YOU own the right to your body.  

"there is no wrong or right - just popular opinion"

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:06 AM

View PostYamato, on 29 July 2013 - 04:44 AM, said:

Accusing someone of being against someone for their ethnicity/religion is absurd and pathetic and completely unacceptable.   You should be ashamed of yourself and you owe me an apology for the many times you've used that term to describe me as a person.
WHAT term?  My statement stands for itself.  Unlike several here I do not call names.  But this article implies in a very direct way that this practice is abhorrent and that it is done in Israel.  Not Israel AND the US or Israel and South Africa or....  just Israel.  And that is an unfair characterization.  As I said, I find it unseemly that this practice is done anywhere but it certainly isn't confined to Israel alone.  The Chinese have been doing it for years - they even take organs from executed prisoners.  It is reminiscent of the blood libel and the old "Jews are money grubbers" slander of many years.  If the reason for posting the story was not to single Israel out then why exactly did you post it?

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#38    Yamato

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:28 AM

View Postand then, on 29 July 2013 - 07:06 AM, said:

WHAT term?  My statement stands for itself.  Unlike several here I do not call names.  But this article implies in a very direct way that this practice is abhorrent and that it is done in Israel.  Not Israel AND the US or Israel and South Africa or....  just Israel.  And that is an unfair characterization.
The term "antisemitic".   This accusation destroys any possibility of gentlemanly debate with someone who simply agrees with you on Israeli policy.  It's reprehensible and I'll forgive you if you can apologize.

It's unfair?  

"Someone else does it too" makes it fair?  That's the reasoning of a five year old.   Israel should be weighed on its own merits, like everywhere else.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#39    Stellar

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 12:59 PM

View PostYamato, on 29 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

The term "antisemitic".   This accusation destroys any possibility of gentlemanly debate with someone who simply agrees with you on Israeli policy.  It's reprehensible and I'll forgive you if you can apologize.

It's unfair?  

"Someone else does it too" makes it fair?  That's the reasoning of a five year old.   Israel should be weighed on its own merits, like everywhere else.

Hmm, the term "antisemitic" thrown around by others seems a lot like your "statist" term that you throw around at people who have beliefs different from you...

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#40    and then

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 03:28 PM

View PostYamato, on 29 July 2013 - 07:28 AM, said:

The term "antisemitic".   This accusation destroys any possibility of gentlemanly debate with someone who simply agrees with you on Israeli policy.  It's reprehensible and I'll forgive you if you can apologize.

It's unfair?  

"Someone else does it too" makes it fair?  That's the reasoning of a five year old.   Israel should be weighed on its own merits, like everywhere else.
I did not "call" you anything.  If you took my description of your behavior to mean that I think you are an antiSemite then perhaps you should ask yourself why you come to such a conclusion.  This article was posted to defame Israel and Jewish doctors -period.
Frankly I think any docs who procure organs for cash in poor countries should be ashamed of themselves - whether they be Israeli, US or Indian -we won't even discuss the Chinese.  And people who imply slanderous things about a specific group - even if it is done subtly - should be called on their bias.  I don't hesitate to apologise here at UM when I make a mistake or become too impassioned and get insulting.  You should try it - very liberating.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#41    Yamato

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 09:38 PM

View PostStellar, on 29 July 2013 - 12:59 PM, said:

Hmm, the term "antisemitic" thrown around by others seems a lot like your "statist" term that you throw around at people who have beliefs different from you...
Statist is a political term like liberal, conservative, socialist, libertarian; there's nothing insulting about it, it defines one's political views.   The term antisemitic is like calling someone a racist.   It's accusing me of hating a group of people for their characteristics.  Absurd.  Why are even false accusations defensible now?  

View Postand then, on 29 July 2013 - 03:28 PM, said:

I did not "call" you anything.  If you took my description of your behavior to mean that I think you are an antiSemite then perhaps you should ask yourself why you come to such a conclusion.  This article was posted to defame Israel and Jewish doctors -period.
Frankly I think any docs who procure organs for cash in poor countries should be ashamed of themselves - whether they be Israeli, US or Indian -we won't even discuss the Chinese.  And people who imply slanderous things about a specific group - even if it is done subtly - should be called on their bias.  I don't hesitate to apologise here at UM when I make a mistake or become too impassioned and get insulting.  You should try it - very liberating.
When I have something to apologize for, I do it as well.   But you call people antisemitic for disagreeing with Israeli policy.    Do you realize how much of an insult this is?   Do you realize how out of bounds you are for accusing people of it?    For all you know me, and for all I know you, you're the one with the anti-Jewish problem and that's why in YOUR bias, you're trying to get them all killed by herding them all into a strip of land that's going to burn in the final battle.  The point is, if we're going to throw ugly words like this around and use them on each other and not apologize for it, I can play that game too, but frankly, I would rather ask you kindly to stop using it multiple times before I debase myself with that kind of desperate regrettable language.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#42    and then

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 01:53 AM

View PostYamato, on 29 July 2013 - 09:38 PM, said:

Statist is a political term like liberal, conservative, socialist, libertarian; there's nothing insulting about it, it defines one's political views.   The term antisemitic is like calling someone a racist.   It's accusing me of hating a group of people for their characteristics.  Absurd.  Why are even false accusations defensible now?  


When I have something to apologize for, I do it as well.   But you call people antisemitic for disagreeing with Israeli policy. Do you realize how much of an insult this is?   Do you realize how out of bounds you are for accusing people of it? For all you know me, and for all I know you, you're the one with the anti-Jewish problem and that's why in YOUR bias, you're trying to get them all killed by herding them all into a strip of land that's going to burn in the final battle.  The point is, if we're going to throw ugly words like this around and use them on each other and not apologize for it, I can play that game too, but frankly, I would rather ask you kindly to stop using it multiple times before I debase myself with that kind of desperate regrettable language.
If you can show me where I called you an anti Semite I will gladly apologize to you.  My memory isn't what it was, for sure, but the only person at UM I THINK I've been angry enough at to accuse of being such is another member.

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#43    Yamato

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 02:19 AM

View Postand then, on 30 July 2013 - 01:53 AM, said:

If you can show me where I called you an anti Semite I will gladly apologize to you.  My memory isn't what it was, for sure, but the only person at UM I THINK I've been angry enough at to accuse of being such is another member.
Your hypothetical apology is good enough for me to count as a real one.   So long as you don't do it again in the future, even liking the posts of others when they do it, then I'll be able to believe that your apology was genuine.  Fair enough?

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#44    and then

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 05:05 AM

View PostYamato, on 30 July 2013 - 02:19 AM, said:

Your hypothetical apology is good enough for me to count as a real one.   So long as you don't do it again in the future, even liking the posts of others when they do it, then I'll be able to believe that your apology was genuine.  Fair enough?
I do not believe I have ever called you such a thing.  And I will "like" the opinions of others as I see fit.  Have you never "liked" a statement that included more than a single point?  Did you totally agree with everything in the post?  And I ask again - WHY did you post an article that defames Israel alone in the business of organ sales?  Do you not see how leading such an article could be?  There was no intent to rattle a cage there?  If not then I apologise for the assumption but when your previous posts are taken in toto it seems reasonable that you would do such a thing...

  We've cast the world, we've set the stage,
  for what could be, the darkest age...
“This is like playing poker with a guy who cheated you twice before. You know who does that, a moron.

#45    Yamato

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:07 AM

View Postand then, on 30 July 2013 - 05:05 AM, said:

I do not believe I have ever called you such a thing.  And I will "like" the opinions of others as I see fit.  Have you never "liked" a statement that included more than a single point?  Did you totally agree with everything in the post?  And I ask again - WHY did you post an article that defames Israel alone in the business of organ sales?  Do you not see how leading such an article could be?  There was no intent to rattle a cage there?  If not then I apologise for the assumption but when your previous posts are taken in toto it seems reasonable that you would do such a thing...
So you liked something else in the posts calling me antisemitic?    Am I an "Islamist"?

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi




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