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Robert Anton Wilson on the federal reserve


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#106    Br Cornelius

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 08:33 AM

View PostYamato, on 30 July 2013 - 10:53 PM, said:

That's not the point.   Reasons for growth don't substitute for the freedom to grow.  You need both. The free markets didn't stop the early growth that made everything else that came later in this country possible.   Capping or banning profits bans growth because there's no incentive for capitalists to take risks with their own capital.
Regulation of industry is not capping or banning profits - where did you get that bizarre idea. Regulation is to ensure that corporations behave in socially acceptable ways and all the evidence shows that regulation of corporations is essential to a correctly functioning market.

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#107    Yamato

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:04 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 31 July 2013 - 08:33 AM, said:

Regulation of industry is not capping or banning profits - where did you get that bizarre idea. Regulation is to ensure that corporations behave in socially acceptable ways and all the evidence shows that regulation of corporations is essential to a correctly functioning market.

Br Cornelius
Regulation might be capping or banning profits, e.g. Cap and Trade.   It is bizarre, you're right.   How do you feel about Cap and Trade?   A socially acceptable way to cap profits?    How much carbon is "essential to a correctly functioning market".

You want to regulate/socialize corporate losses with force control instead of letting bad companies leave the market naturally through the rule of law.     It's a tragedy to me that people think like this because we throw our freedom away so unnecessarily.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#108    Br Cornelius

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 10:17 AM

View PostYamato, on 31 July 2013 - 10:04 AM, said:

Regulation might be capping or banning profits, e.g. Cap and Trade.   It is bizarre, you're right.   How do you feel about Cap and Trade?   A socially acceptable way to cap profits? How much carbon is "essential to a correctly functioning market".

You want to regulate/socialize corporate losses with force control instead of letting bad companies leave the market naturally through the rule of law. It's a tragedy to me that people think like this because we throw our freedom away so unnecessarily.
Cap and trade has no intent to cap profits - its intent and outcome is to cap emissions. You can make more profits by lowering your emissions under cap and trade. this is a socially beneficial outcome, which is the purpose of regulation. Cap and trade is by design revenue neutral and any excess that is generated goes to support carbon lowering initiative which the companies failed to implement themselves. Cap and trade is not about profits - its about insensitivising environmentally progressive industry.

How do you propose that the market would self regulate for emissions reductions, or do you not think climate change is a problem worthy of intervention ??

Bad companies tend to be more profitable (they wouldn't break the regulations if it wasn't profitable to do so) so they gain market advantage, they tend to grow bigger and more successful (look at Monsanto as and example). Your logic is again flawed, history fails to support your belief.
Where have I ever advocated socializing corporate losses ?? You will search a very long time before you find that.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 31 July 2013 - 11:05 AM.

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Robert Anton Wilson

#109    Gummug

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:21 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 July 2013 - 07:43 AM, said:

You have pointed out one of the myriad flaws. However the more fundamental flaws are what it does to the economy in that it causes much more serious boom and bust cycles. There is a huge body of research on why the Gold standard is inadequate for a modern money supply.

Yamoto's hatred of the Fed blinds him to the possibility that there are other alternative than Gold. RAW was not so naive.

Br Cornelius
I'm going to go have to read that 15 page discussion between you and Yamato so I'll have at least an inkling of what I'm talking about. I really don't want to post too much here because I have a feeling I'm way over my head. (Economics is not my strong suit.) I think you and Yamato both seem to have some really good points so I'm trying to sort it out if I can. (Knowing me I probably won't be able to sort it out  lol.) However, I do have one question for you, Br Cornelius: Before 1913, when the Fed was established, were there any booms or busts that could be attributed to the gold standard? I know there was the tumult and chaos of the Civil War, but afaik, that had nothing to do with the money supply, it was more politics (keeping the states all in the Union). I know you've mentioned several times that booms and busts are more severe under the gold standard, but I don't recall that happening in American history, not before 1913. And after 1913 we can blame the Fed :P .
edited for clarity

Edited by Gummug, 01 August 2013 - 04:23 PM.

The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know....

#110    Br Cornelius

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:40 PM

There were boom bust cycles on the gold standard - and if I could only find the graph I could demonstrate that they were damped down after we left the gold standard.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#111    Gummug

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 05:09 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 01 August 2013 - 04:40 PM, said:

There were boom bust cycles on the gold standard - and if I could only find the graph I could demonstrate that they were damped down after we left the gold standard.

Br Cornelius
If you get a chance, like I said, I'm still learning about economics, and it seems really complicated to me. No wonder there seems to be so much disagreement, even among the experts. Well, if you get a chance and find the graph, if not, no problem. I think I spend too much time here myself, it's addicting!  :D

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#112    Yamato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 08:13 AM

The free market isn't perfect (I'm assigned the thesis that it is perfect quite often), in fact, it's brutal.  But it metes out justice to each according to what they deserve most of the time.

The reason we have corporatism is because corporations don't want to fail, and they have developed an entitlement complex to the peoples' money in this country.   Nixon Shock was the final nail in the coffin of monetary sanity in this country.  It's been a manufactured spending frenzy starting out in the Jimmy Carter era and accelerating ever since, ballooning into what we're doing today under the Obama administration.    Natural cycles in the market shouldn't be cowered away from.  The life and death cycles in the economy happen for a reason.  

Our corporations don't deserve taxpayer-funded immortality!  Let the zombie (banks) die, Hershel!  But Lo!  The banks are making money hand over fist!  

The tentacles that have grown between big corporations and the federal government should be severed well and truly.   When government has infinite money to share, every business in the business of making money clings to the sides of that money pool, and the people get ignored while the biggest organizations are cared for first.  Since when did the taxpayer become beholden to and responsible for the banker?   Let the corporations live or die by the justice of the marketplace.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi

#113    Br Cornelius

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:23 AM

Its called Fascism, and all markets eventually drift towards right wing extremism.

Br Cornelius

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Robert Anton Wilson

#114    Yamato

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 09:34 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 02 August 2013 - 09:23 AM, said:

Its called Fascism, and all markets eventually drift towards right wing extremism.

Br Cornelius
You may be right about that, but "right wing" is incidental.  Corporatism can gravitate to either wing.  The left has no shortage of corporate playboys!.   It's a veritable cash cow for politicians on both sides of the spending spectrum so it's little wonder we see our entire government is rotten with it.   Left or right is such a false paradigm because it only argues about two different federal solutions to a problem.   Just watch Fox News Channel if you want to see what I'm talking about.   Everything gets politicized directly to the White House.   Our media, left and right, has our people believing that the the White House is the answer to all our prayers or the source of all that is evil in the universe.

"The power to declare war, including the power of judging the causes of war, is fully and exclusively vested in the Legislature.  The Executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question" ~ James Madison
"Peace cannot be achieved by force, only by understanding."  ~ Albert Einstein
"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela
"I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians.  Your Christians are so unlike your Christ." ~ Mahatma Gandhi




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