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Robert Anton Wilson on the federal reserve


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#46    Yamato

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 08:41 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 25 July 2013 - 08:32 AM, said:

So why are you against paper money ? Why is Gold superior when it has so many issues ?

Br Cornelius
Already listed plenty of reasons why on this thread and on the 15 page thread that you referred to.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#47    Br Cornelius

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:59 AM

View PostYamato, on 25 July 2013 - 08:41 AM, said:

Already listed plenty of reasons why on this thread and on the 15 page thread that you referred to.
Your reasons are only specific to FED money. Gold has its own problems which you have not acknowledged and that thread showed you avoiding addressing them - repeatedly.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#48    preacherman76

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 12:57 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 23 July 2013 - 02:59 PM, said:

Nowhere did he advocate gold and he wrote quite a bit on economics, I think we can safely conclude he wasn't a fan.
Here's a nice challenge, find me one quote from RAW where he gives a positive assessment of the gold standard. If it exists it should be relatively easy to find.

The RICH economy is what he advocated, here is an article by him on what that means;

http://www.whywork.o...k/rawilson.html

Much more revolutionary than a discussion of currencies.

Br Cornelius

Thats a stretch. To say the least. You dont hear me talking about any number of things. That doesnt mean that you can safely assume you know how I feel about them.

Some things are true, even if you dont believe them.

#49    Br Cornelius

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:00 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 25 July 2013 - 12:57 PM, said:

Thats a stretch. To say the least. You dont hear me talking about any number of things. That doesnt mean that you can safely assume you know how I feel about them.
He made many suggestions on economics. A return to the gold standard is glaring in its absence. He had a very positivist outlook and if he though gold would have been the best solution he would have clearly said so.

He was a very different stripe of Libertarian than most we have here.


Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 25 July 2013 - 01:02 PM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#50    preacherman76

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:14 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 24 July 2013 - 11:51 AM, said:

All of those qualities are not intrinsic to money - they have nothing to do with money. Money is an idea which has to function for its intended purpose. The current FED and Gold both fail on meeting the essential qualities of money - both distort and destroy smooth functioning economies.
You asked why your opinion was wrong on your invariant points. You weren't in a discussion of ideas - you were in polemic mode.

Br Cornelius

In your opinion, what is the answer to the problems of a fiat currency?

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#51    Br Cornelius

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:23 PM

None interest baring, none fractional reserve, spent into existence by the treasury. Give it a basket of real asset value to be tied to with upper and lower bounds which cannot be broken when expedient to do so.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#52    preacherman76

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 01:51 PM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 25 July 2013 - 01:23 PM, said:

None interest baring, none fractional reserve, spent into existence by the treasury. Give it a basket of real asset value to be tied to with upper and lower bounds which cannot be broken when expedient to do so.

Br Cornelius

Forgive my ignorance, but could you go into a little more detail then that?

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#53    Br Cornelius

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 02:42 PM

View Postpreacherman76, on 25 July 2013 - 01:51 PM, said:

Forgive my ignorance, but could you go into a little more detail then that?
It would take some effort to find good sources, which I am not interested in repeating.
Do a google search on each of those terms and you should get the idea.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#54    hacktorp

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 04:30 PM

We may soon see a 'return' to a gold standard as China will likely announce their renminbi is to be backed by gold.  This won't be so much a move to increase economic stability as an act to kick out yet another leg of the rickety stool supporting the US dollar as world reserve currency.

China has been increasing their gold reserves at historic rates while the US has virtually none; US sovereign gold holdings have pretty much all found their way into private hands and replaced with scraps of paper.  The US will never be able to move to a gold standard since the US Treasury would be utterly bankrupt on the very first day.  Even if they tried it, they would be at the mercy of China's (and others) ability to release huge amounts of (previously unreported) gold into the system and thereby crush the value of the dollar overnight.

Our economy needs currency to facilitate buy/sell transactions.  At this point, some sort of responsibly-managed fiat makes the most sense.


#55    NiteMarcher

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Posted 25 July 2013 - 09:01 PM



Believe what you want and I'll believe whatever I want...it's an open field, and
everyone is given a chance at making a home run...

#56    Yamato

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:08 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 25 July 2013 - 09:59 AM, said:

Your reasons are only specific to FED money. Gold has its own problems which you have not acknowledged and that thread showed you avoiding addressing them - repeatedly.

Br Cornelius
I'll acknowledge your bait and switch.  You ran out of gas fast when it comes to discussing the OP.  Let's bump my thread about gold and along with listing what you think gold's problems are, I'll see if I can acknowledge them, but there's a lot of questions in that 15-page discussion about gold that you never answered or acknowledged, so in the interest of making mutual acknowledgements about gold, let's bump my thread and discuss it where it's actually the topic of the discussion, alright?

In this subject, gold doesn't suffer from the problems that the OP is assigning to fiat.  There's no printing press, no magic, and no problems that arise from magic printing presses.  

Dismissing your assertions here is simple.  If you endorse Keynesian economics, you need fiat in order to inflate the money supply to practice Keynesian economics.   Either government borrows value from the life savings of other people in order to save certain political interests through inflation, or it lives within a constrained money supply and makes sacrifices in one sector to subsidize another.   Based on what I know of your posting history, the latter is the only way I think you can reconcile your dilemma.  And it amounts to government punishing success and socializing losses.   There is no authority in the US to do this.  If you think it's a great idea you should be promoting it in Ireland by writing to your legislators rather than first finding a US model for these kinds of problematic viewpoints.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#57    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:19 AM

Keynsian economics has shown itself to work in reducing economic cycles. That's a fact and the fact that Gold hasn't got that flexibility is a primary reason why it is a bad currency.
You may find it acceptable to go through a Depression every 20-30years, as Gold can be shown to cause, but I personally do not think the pain of dispossession and hurt is worth your principles.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#58    Yamato

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:34 AM

When government loses its credibility as a reliable creditor, the value of its fiat declines.   It's hard to see the largest debtor nation in the world riding on the glory of its past strength much longer.  

I see market sentiment being used as a rhetorical cudgel to bash gold by the usual Keynesian suspects but market sentiment applies to everything.  When the market no longer finds gold worth a certain price, it won't be.  When the market no longer feels that the US dollar is the global reserve currency it won't be.   So that's not the difference that matters.  The difference is whether we choose a storehouse of value that hasn't gone to zero in 6,000 years, or keep hopes alive for the US dollar when for thousands of years of history, every fiat currency has gone to zero eventually.   Trust in the US dollar requires trust in the US government to practice sustainable policies.  That becomes harder to do with no constraints on money printing, and this refers back to the OP.   We can pretend that we can keep inflating forever but the time will come to pay the piper when there's no willing recipient left for the exponentially growing US debt load.  

China converting some of its US debt to gold may be a sign that the end of the road is approaching.    When the standard of living for the typical Chinese person is high enough that his/her consumption can satisfy China's productive might, China won't need US consumers anymore.  We will become less valuable customers since it costs a lot more to trade through 20,000 pages of red tape and ship things by boat half way around the world past just to sell it.   The incentive to produce for US consumers would still exist only if the US consumer was willing to pay a higher price for the same product than his Chinese counterpart, and that means that the everyday low prices at Wal-mart aren't going to remain so everyday low anymore.  If people don't lament the lack of competition with Wal-mart in their communities yet, wait till that happens.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela

#59    Br Cornelius

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:42 AM

All fine and good, but the failure of the USA to manage its dollar supply, its gross criminality in its administration of the world currency, is just that a crime by your Government against the world - it is not proof that a Fiat currency cannot be managed in a fair and appropriate way. Gold has wrecked economies just as surely as any Fiat currency - the fact that those holding the last pot of gold at the end of the crash does OK is not very comforting to everyone else who isn't. the fact is that if we go back onto a Gold standard we will have handed our destiny to a bunch of private international bankers just as surely as if we stay with the FED.

As has been pointed out by hackthorp - for the USA to even attempt to go back onto the Gold Standard at this stage would be a total disaster since it neither has the Gold or the resources to buy the Gold to make it happen.

Its not and never has been a simple either or situation !!!

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius, 26 July 2013 - 08:43 AM.

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#60    Yamato

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 08:57 AM

View PostBr Cornelius, on 26 July 2013 - 08:19 AM, said:

Keynsian economics has shown itself to work in reducing economic cycles. That's a fact and the fact that Gold hasn't got that flexibility is a primary reason why it is a bad currency.
You may find it acceptable to go through a Depression every 20-30years, as Gold can be shown to cause, but I personally do not think the pain of dispossession and hurt is worth your principles.

Br Cornelius
You're selling Keynesian economics again using fiat currency in a thread where the OP is eviscerating the nonsense that is fiat currency.   Your rhetoric is at odds with itself.

My principles don't accept the fallacy of eternal growth.   If you grow too much, if you spend too much, if you're irresponsible in how you live your life, there must be consequences that you have to pay for.   Kicking the can down the road for as long as politically possible and dropping the mess into someone else's lap who didn't make it is morally reprehensible.  Keeping the Roaring '20s going forever requires a Ponzi scheme and we're living it today.  But no matter how much force you bring to bear on broken system, the market will always win in the end.   Blow the economy to kingdom come and the free market will still be there, trading wood for fruit out of the back of a wagon.

Again, if you want to discuss gold, bump my thread on the gold standard, along with acknowledgments and answers to my questions there that you never got around to.   The "rout" simply doesn't exist there.   I never suggested gold as a currency, what I did suggest is on that 15-page thread.   Respond to what I actually said about gold, don't make up stories.

"To deny people their human rights is to challenge their very humanity.   To impose on them a wretched life of hunger and deprivation is to dehumanize them." ~ Nelson Mandela




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