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Anti-Natalism and Existence


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#16    ReaperS_ParadoX

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Posted 26 July 2013 - 04:14 PM

I' can understand the need to reproduce being a survival instinct type of thing but humans also feel pleasure when in the act of sex, now only a few animals actually do it for pleasure and most just do it to carry on there species.  I wonder what number of the population are just accidents, because the people having sex didn't take the time and precautions to think about the consequences and what the end result could be.

Edited by R4z3rsPar4d0x, 26 July 2013 - 04:16 PM.

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#17    Mikko-kun

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 09:52 PM

Can anyone of us say it had been better if our parents hadn't made us?

That said, I dont think a lot of people should make children, because we already got more population than what's good for us. The most annoying thing is that you dont get peace from other people, there's always some other representative of your species or their bigotry rules preventing you from being a hermit and living more at your own whims. Every day I walk to station to work, there's always a lot of cars on the road, and just me walking there. Everyone likes to be in their little boxes and get to their meaningless jobs faster so they can live more comfortable lives. I dont think this world needs any more of that. Not any more of busybody people who live in their makebelieve-lives with their makebelieve-values, and it's all good because we have family, we have jobs, we have friends, we're accepted by society. I'm not a nihilist but I think that if you decide to make babies, you should seriously think twice about how you raise them regarding these points. Will you support the idealism of zombie-society where you just fit in or will you support their making of independent observations and solutions?

There's a lot of excuses not to make children. But I think only one good reason: if you think your children would only contribute to making society as bad or worse than what it is today. What's the point to see all that trouble and in your deathbed when you're at your most sincere state realise you did all that crap, and a feeling of regret gives you the final push to see what's on the other side, because at this side you obviously didn't do much real good and you know it. You'd like to think otherwise, but the feeling you just can't shake off, lingers.

If you have a clear conscience, what I say shouldn't make you feel bad. But if it does, can you blame only me? Though you can blame me for saying it, that was my choise. I'm a hypocrite, but if no one broke these things out, where would it leave us?

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#18    White Crane Feather

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Posted 31 July 2013 - 01:30 AM

These are actually good points. As a father of three I often dwell on the real possibility that my kids will have to face something horrible.

My take is one of a zen attitude. Each moment is its own and worth the trouble. It's better to have existed.

On a grander scale  I do believe life on earth is evolving and in an embryonic stage that may evenchualy evolve into a higher being. in this context every life is important.

Who knows your child could have been the super genius that changes the universe.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
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#19    ReaperS_ParadoX

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:16 PM

child a super genius that changes the universe. come on isn't that giving humans a little to much credit. The fact that a human could change other planets Ok Ill give you that because as a group the whole human species has changed this planet.  But the universe, isn't that a tad bit arrogant.

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#20    Taun

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 04:24 PM

My infant daughter died many years ago and I was never fortunate enough to have another... It is the greatest tragedy in my life - and to some extent I will never get over it...

While I can intellectually accept that some people never want to have children, emotionally I can not grasp the concept....

To those who say "Well, we'll all be dead and gone eventually anyway - so why bring a child into the world just to die", I say " Every species fights to survive and to keep surviving. Humans are fast becoming the only
Earth species to ever WANT to die. Excuse me if I wish the species to continue."...


#21    ReaperS_ParadoX

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Posted 01 August 2013 - 11:57 PM

View PostTaun, on 01 August 2013 - 04:24 PM, said:

My infant daughter died many years ago and I was never fortunate enough to have another... It is the greatest tragedy in my life - and to some extent I will never get over it...

While I can intellectually accept that some people never want to have children, emotionally I can not grasp the concept....

To those who say "Well, we'll all be dead and gone eventually anyway - so why bring a child into the world just to die", I say " Every species fights to survive and to keep surviving. Humans are fast becoming the only
Earth species to ever WANT to die. Excuse me if I wish the species to continue."...
Who says as a species we want to die?

COME WITH ME. OVERWHELMING POWER AND MADNESS AWAIT

THAT IS NOT DEAD WHICH CAN ETERNAL LIE AND WITH STRANGE AEONS EVEN DEATH MAY DIE

#22    _Only

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 02:32 AM

View PostR4z3rsPar4d0x, on 01 August 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

child a super genius that changes the universe. come on isn't that giving humans a little to much credit. The fact that a human could change other planets Ok Ill give you that because as a group the whole human species has changed this planet.  But the universe, isn't that a tad bit arrogant.

No, it isn't arrogant. I don't think you have at all the same perspective of the universe as White Crane Feather does.

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#23    Zaphod222

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 02:51 AM

View PostGearshaag, on 26 July 2013 - 03:38 AM, said:

Well, I've been thinking about this for quite a while now and I've been wanting to have a discussion about it for a while. In our modern society, having kids is pretty much something that's just automatically expected of you. You start your family and whatever, raise some kids and help guide them along a pathway to 'success' (whatever the hell that means to you :P). I can't and won't speak for anyone else, but at least in my experience not wanting kids is strangely enough somewhat frowned upon. Sometimes it's more implicit, but there are a few occasions where it's openly criticized and bashed. But I must ask, why is that?

You can save the rest of your meandering message and stop right there.
Having kids is both a biological desire built into us and a necessity for survival for any society.
A society that does not produce children stops to exist. Period.
So there is absolutely nothing wrong or strange about a society promoting the creation of families and rearing the young.

In fact, the reason that Western societies in general are on the way to extinction is that we don´t produce enough children (in favour of material pleasures) are thus being gradually replaced by those cultures who do. But the result will be the end of our civilization as we currently know it.

Nothing more to say, really.

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#24    Mikko-kun

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:33 AM

I guess it's a matter of taste there. If you like what western culture has done and have confidence in it, yeah... I've lost confidence in people's ability to both accurately discern reality as well as make pressing, responsible decisions. So can't share your sentiment there. Nothing makes up for the warmth of a family, and while lack of it can produce people who are as cold as me on this, many people from broken families, that warmth can drive us too towards a family. I just can't even fathom it as something desirable yet, I've been let myself be disappointed far too much for that, though I'm no angel either. But that's just a matter of personal experiences.

Mars is in Cancer now so you could expect more people stand up for traditional family-values and for the warmth of the family.

In the end, I dont think it's really that much about what kind of values your children would receive, those reasons shouldn't be obstacles, because with your values you anyhow influence other people, and your children will anyhow in the end adopt the kind of values they feel better about. It's not about making good soldies for your cause or fearing that your children become members of the enemy camp. But I can understand if someone sees their own values so dear they couldn't watch their children go against them. But that's just the thing. If you make children, they're just one of the few billion people with values of their own, a drop in the ocean, but they're the few people in this world you'll feel better about. And parents tend to influence their kids, in better and worse.

To me, it's really more a matter of life-situation really. To get my life and myself in order, and maybe find someone I can actually trust in this world, which isn't happening, but someone who I can let myself trust with a good feeling at least, even if it might not last to the end. And children can be a lot of work, though no parent should say that to their kids. Pets alone can be a lot of work, you need to have your life in order if you want to be a proper parent. And I wholeheartedly recommend practising with taking a pet so you might be able to conceive what kind of investment it is in that sense, having children.

I've been born again 31,8,2014 approximately 21:35 local time. A moment free of clutter in the mind, emancipating myself like an escapist, allowing myself to breathe life in a stronger, less physical level... though it does resonate to physical world. It's the oomph.

#25    Valdemar the Great

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:35 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 02 August 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

You can save the rest of your meandering message and stop right there.
Having kids is both a biological desire built into us and a necessity for survival for any society.
A society that does not produce children stops to exist. Period.
So there is absolutely nothing wrong or strange about a society promoting the creation of families and rearing the young.

In fact, the reason that Western societies in general are on the way to extinction is that we don´t produce enough children (in favour of material pleasures) are thus being gradually replaced by those cultures who do. But the result will be the end of our civilization as we currently know it.

Nothing more to say, really.
Ah, the argument from emotional blackmail. "It is your Moral Duty to Reproduce because if you don't Western civilisation will die out and we will be overrun by the Islamic hordes".
Very similar, really, to the exhortations commonly used by totalitarian states throughout history, and indeed the argument that was a basis for all those instructions about sexual morality in the Old testament.

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#26    White Crane Feather

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 06:36 AM

View PostR4z3rsPar4d0x, on 01 August 2013 - 04:16 PM, said:

child a super genius that changes the universe. come on isn't that giving humans a little to much credit. The fact that a human could change other planets Ok Ill give you that because as a group the whole human species has changed this planet.  But the universe, isn't that a tad bit arrogant.
You never know. There could be a child living right now that will revolutionize nano technology that will carry humanity into eternity and end death as a concept, or she might figure out how to download your consciousness into a super massive network thereby allowing you to exist in any way that you wish. He might invent a warp engine. One thing is for sure, if the world is to be saved, if world peace  is to occur, hunger ended, consciousness expanded it will be a child or children that grows up to do it. In not knocking a personal choice not to have children. That's purely a personal matter. But if you believe that this is your only life, then you and your potential children are missing out on some of the most loveing connected moments known to man. I say this while my two little boys are sleeping right in front of me on the sofa. Look at their faces in my avatar. Love man.... It's all worth the risk, and it is a magnificent gamble. The Highs and the potential lows. "There are no ordinary moments"--- Dan millman.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 02 August 2013 - 06:37 AM.

"I wish neither to possess, Nor to be possessed. I no longer covet paradise, more important, I no longer fear hell. The medicine for my suffering I had within me from the very beginning, but I did not take it. My ailment came from within myself, But I did not observe it until this moment. Now I see that I will never find the light.  Unless, like the candle, I am my own fuel, Consuming myself. "
Bruce Lee-

#27    Zaphod222

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Posted 02 August 2013 - 12:14 PM

View PostColonel Rhuairidh, on 02 August 2013 - 06:35 AM, said:

Ah, the argument from emotional blackmail. "It is your Moral Duty to Reproduce because if you don't Western civilisation will die out and we will be overrun by the Islamic hordes".

Except that this one is a demographic fact.
Of course, in the short run demographis are nothing, so it easy for you to make glib comments.
But in the long run, demographics are everything.

In the event, the islamists know this and are already gloating over the fact.
That is the difference between the short term view and the long term view.

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#28    Gearshaag

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:34 AM

View PostZaphod222, on 02 August 2013 - 02:51 AM, said:

You can save the rest of your meandering message and stop right there.
Having kids is both a biological desire built into us and a necessity for survival for any society.
A society that does not produce children stops to exist. Period.
So there is absolutely nothing wrong or strange about a society promoting the creation of families and rearing the young.

In fact, the reason that Western societies in general are on the way to extinction is that we don´t produce enough children (in favour of material pleasures) are thus being gradually replaced by those cultures who do. But the result will be the end of our civilization as we currently know it.

Nothing more to say, really.
instead, why aren't people simply taught that they have a choice? Yes, easier said than done and yes it would pretty much go against our biological instincts. At the same time it would be the most reasonable thing to teach people as they get older and start to get into the age range where kids and reproduction are an actual issue and not just an afterthought. I understand that it's an evolutionary thing to promote reproduction in order to facilitate the survival of the species, but I'm not speaking from that perspective nor am I speaking from a perspective regarding demographics of any kind. I had simply used our modern Western world as a template to make a point anyways, it was just an example. Also, I think that we don't really have to just use biological programming to argue in this case as well. I think we can use reasons other than biological programming and the facilitation of the continuation of society.
Again, as I'd stated before, humanity itself isn't expected to be around forever, let alone 'society'
Just like every other society before us, it'll eventually all collapse and be subject to the sands of time. \
...or perhaps I'm just a bit too nihilistic? I think not. Convince me otherwise.

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#29    _Only

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 07:41 AM

View PostGearshaag, on 05 August 2013 - 07:34 AM, said:

instead, why aren't people simply taught that they have a choice?

That doesn't need to be taught. People aren't usually coerced into having children.

Quote

Convince me otherwise.

There's no need to convince you of anything here. Do what you want. But try not to imply that others are farming suffering by creating new life. Life is everything, good and bad. You're just choosing to base your views off of the negative, which could be baring your state of mind, no offense.

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#30    Gearshaag

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Posted 05 August 2013 - 10:28 PM

View Post_Only, on 05 August 2013 - 07:41 AM, said:

That doesn't need to be taught. People aren't usually coerced into having children.

Not always outwardly, no they aren't...

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