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Is Nirvana person usefull to society?


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#1    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 05:52 PM

I like to hear what Umers think.
Are Buddhism usefull to society?
Is Nirvana person numb to contribute to society?
Thanks in advance.

Edited by the L, 29 July 2013 - 05:58 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#2    StarMountainKid

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 06:48 PM

I think those who seek enlightenment are seeking it for their own mental health, and to try to reach a more whole or complete understanding in their lives.

I also think they make a great contribution to society in that they are able to teach others from their own experience, and hopefully spread some sanity into the world. Who can say how many political, social and cultural leaders have been positively influenced by these people.

In my view, it is a great benefit to human civilization that these individuals exist. I have read many books written by and about "Nirvana persons", as many have, and their lives have inspired me in many positive moral and practical ways.

Thank you all awakened men and women through history.

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#3    Ryu

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 07:24 PM

View Postthe L, on 29 July 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

I like to hear what Umers think.
Are Buddhism usefull to society?
Is Nirvana person numb to contribute to society?
Thanks in advance.

Buddhism is merely another religion and "Nirvana" is supposedly some enlightened state that one achieves in said religion.
Such people, in my view, are not any more or less "useful" than anyone else.

They are no different than the so-called "born again" christians except most people who claim to have reached "nirvana" don't brag or flaunt it nor do they think they are somehow superior to the rest of humanity.


#4    GreenmansGod

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:17 PM

Maybe you should read up on Buddhism.  Nirvana is a state of bliss, it is not being numb to the world. When you are in a peaceful and calm state you are still still useful, you are just happy for the most part, you just don't let people and things affect your inner core.

Take a little time and read up on it.
http://buddhism.abou.../nirvanadef.htm

http://www.thebigvie...htfoldpath.html

Edited by Darkwind, 29 July 2013 - 10:21 PM.

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#5    Br Cornelius

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Posted 29 July 2013 - 10:46 PM

Is the Dhala Lama (enlightened Buddhist) a useful and productive individual ?
Is Keanu Reeves (actor and Practising Buddhist) a useful and productive person ?
Is Rodger Waters (world famous musician and practising Buddhist) a useful and productive person ?

Frankly the question is so ridiculous as to not be worth addressing.

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#6    Ryu

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:09 AM

First off I know what Buddhism is.
Secondly one's religious affiliation means nothing. Either you are "useful" (exploitable) or not.

You are right cornelius, this IS a ridiculous question.


#7    Arpee

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:42 AM

View Postthe L, on 29 July 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Are Buddhism usefull to society?

It depends.

If by useful to society, you mean liberating all of the souls of society from the physical attachment then the answer is yes.
If by useful to society, you mean advancing or increasing the physical, then no.

View Postthe L, on 29 July 2013 - 05:52 PM, said:

Is Nirvana person numb to contribute to society?
Thanks in advance.

they are numb only to physical attachments. They are not numb to the pains and needs of others - no.

"Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love." - 1 John 4:7-8

#8    Frank Merton

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:51 AM

One of the reasons given for the Communist takeover of Tibet was that it had become a society run by monks who had forgone all personal ambition and that as a result the country had no chance to advance.

Personally I know a lot of monks who are like that; they forgoe all personal ambition, become unfeeling uncaring and untouched by human desires.  I also know of monks who feel so strongly as to self-immolate to make a political point.

Why do we have to decide how each person should behave?


#9    Mystic Crusader

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 12:59 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 30 July 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

Why do we have to decide how each person should behave?

I think some people do that for egotistical reasons, the only way some people can feel valid is to see a mirror of them-selves in others.

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#10    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:10 AM

View PostArpee, on 30 July 2013 - 12:42 AM, said:


If by useful to society, you mean advancing or increasing the physical, then no.


Anti progress?
Do you think that them as labour could contribute more to society they live in...by becoming more active...taking initiative?
Are Buddhist passive when it comes to building society they live in....Laos is now growing but it was state where Goverment wanted to rebuilt main square in main city and on that square only four workers worked...and when Jornalists ask them about it...they resond ah why to hurry? We dont have dead lines...
To me seems that Buddhists lack of organization, adventure spirit, energy if you want...Tibet, Mongolia...Like they are living on another planet or should I say realm.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#11    ambelamba

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:14 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 30 July 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

One of the reasons given for the Communist takeover of Tibet was that it had become a society run by monks who had forgone all personal ambition and that as a result the country had no chance to advance.

Personally I know a lot of monks who are like that; they forgoe all personal ambition, become unfeeling uncaring and untouched by human desires.  I also know of monks who feel so strongly as to self-immolate to make a political point.

Why do we have to decide how each person should behave?

I simply don't see the point of self-immolation, although I am very sympathetic to Buddhism.

They came with a Bible and their religion. stole our land, crushed our spirit, and now they tell us we should be thankful to the Lord for being saved.

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#12    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 07:31 AM

View PostFrank Merton, on 30 July 2013 - 12:51 AM, said:

One of the reasons given for the Communist takeover of Tibet was that it had become a society run by monks who had forgone all personal ambition and that as a result the country had no chance to advance.

Personally I know a lot of monks who are like that; they forgoe all personal ambition, become unfeeling uncaring and untouched by human desires.  I also know of monks who feel so strongly as to self-immolate to make a political point.

Why do we have to decide how each person should behave?

Because history thought us that communism wont work on long run. It ignores human desire to accumulate good. We are like ants. Squirels. We collect goods. We plan things.
What strikes me in your post is that you admit that monks have no personal ambition, do not care about human desires.
Now, why we need to ignore human desires? For example, sex is fun. It feels good. It feels good to know that you safe some dollars on account for hard times. Ignoring desires will not put food on table. Monks, maybe Im wrong, are paid by charity.(?) Many people become monks because they get houses and food.

You said that Buddhists dont have personal ambitions. Now that is wrong on many levels. Adam Smith who is one of father of economy in his Wealth of nations , beside that he spoke about specialization, spoke about Invisible hand. Its hand which help society.

By seeking for personal breaktrough and success we are led by invisible hand which upgrade our society.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#13    White Crane Feather

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 08:05 AM

View Postthe L, on 30 July 2013 - 07:31 AM, said:



Because history thought us that communism wont work on long run. It ignores human desire to accumulate good. We are like ants. Squirels. We collect goods. We plan things.
What strikes me in your post is that you admit that monks have no personal ambition, do not care about human desires.
Now, why we need to ignore human desires? For example, sex is fun. It feels good. It feels good to know that you safe some dollars on account for hard times. Ignoring desires will not put food on table. Monks, maybe Im wrong, are paid by charity.(?) Many people become monks because they get houses and food.

You said that Buddhists dont have personal ambitions. Now that is wrong on many levels. Adam Smith who is one of father of economy in his Wealth of nations , beside that he spoke about specialization, spoke about Invisible hand. Its hand which help society.

By seeking for personal breaktrough and success we are led by invisible hand which upgrade our society.
All of what you say us true L, but despite what they say, monks do have desires and they also sell their services. They participate just as much as anyone else. In economics choices are based upon utility. A monk living off of others provides the perceived wisdom and information of Buddhism to others in return they give him the necessities of life. Even if he is a useless monk others still receive benefit from the perceived value of supporting him. If it did not give them utility over and above the utility they got from what they have they would not give it. This is the crux of economic decision makeing.  There is still a positive utility for society being generated. You must remember that what Adam smith proposed then was researched and modified to fit new discoveries is a description of Human decision makeing then prescriptions to maximize utility for everyone. The reason socialism never works because it starts from a prescription before taking into account how people actually behave. idea to application dosnt work. Knowledge of reality then using reality to maximize utility with the closest and best centralized choices through research does.

The monk participates, but corporations violating key tenants of known economic modifiers is devastating. Mostly externalities which artificially deflate their costs and impose them on others, collusion which creates artificial prices, and many other artificial supply and demand modifiers. Don't get me started. Most of our institutions violate key economic no nos. if only we would truly follow economic theory our world would change drastically.

Edited by White Crane Feather, 30 July 2013 - 08:07 AM.

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#14    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:20 AM

View PostWhite Crane Feather, on 30 July 2013 - 08:05 AM, said:

The monk participates, but corporations violating key tenants of known economic modifiers is devastating. Mostly externalities which artificially deflate their costs and impose them on others, collusion which creates artificial prices, and many other artificial supply and demand modifiers. Don't get me started. Most of our institutions violate key economic no nos. if only we would truly follow economic theory our world would change drastically.

I didnt talk just about monks but all Buddhists. Also we can argue a lot about today economy which is based on Adam Smith. I dare you to start. :rolleyes: Companies are violate perfect economy due ecocide.True.  But perfect economy is violated also by monopoly and corruption. Difference is that Goverment have power and knowledge to fight it. Based on your post I conclude you know messures. So I will not describe them. There is no perfect economy. We live in unperfect world with unperfect economy. So invisible hand effect is weak but...unmotivaed and unambitious population in essence will not contribute to invisible hand. Others atleast trying.

Edited by the L, 30 July 2013 - 10:52 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#15    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 30 July 2013 - 10:31 AM

Question I want to ask you is...lets say we have perfect market without ecocide, corruption and monopoly...and that is Buddhist society...will they made progress? Will they would be able ever to reach production possibilities frontier? I think not. They will always be inside curve. Never on curve and not to mentioned moving curve right.

That said if goverment wanted to interfier with problem they would must touch religion question and that way human rights. So we have situation where we have religion vs goverment.
Meaning goverment dont have power to fight with this phenomenan. Its like boycot in a sense. You would have to change ideology. On another hand we can fight ecocide, monopoly and corruption.

Its Buddhism vs Science. Monks and Buddhists participate but in what extend? Couldnt they participate more if they were ambitious.

Being unsatisfied is good. Anxiety is good. If anxiety dont exist we will never made changes in our lives. Being abmitious is good for society. Yet we have people who are not ambitious.

Edited by the L, 30 July 2013 - 10:58 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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